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Old Feb 16, 2017, 10:23 AM   #5701
Fighter of the Nightman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrudenceJuris View Post
Apparently, sir, you never heard of Harv Schmidt.
All things considered, he said. Illinois basketball redefined itself with Lou Henson; 1989 showed what this program could be with the right recruits and right leadership, and that should have been our vision going forward. The sanctions were a hiccup, and what did we do after the inevitable down years?? Rebounded with our 1998-2006 stretch. It's really as simple as that. The non-sanction years of 1980-2007 should be our expectations, because we proved (over a VERY long stretch with FOUR different coaches who all won a Big Ten title) that it can be done here beyond a shadow of a doubt. Weber tailed off, and we needed to replace him, and it just so happened that we (read: Mike Thomas) made a very costly mistake in that replacement. If we are going to right the ship, everyone needs to transport themselves back to 2008-level thinking and pretend we were firing Weber after that season. Who would we want? Who would we believe we could get? I'm optimistic that the leadership in place now believes in this program's potential and believes that we can return to what HAD become the new baseline in the modern era of college hoops for Illinois basketball.
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Old Feb 16, 2017, 10:58 AM   #5702
UofI08
Location: Chicago
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelix View Post
Groce is 4-3 against Tim Miles in the B1G.
Oops. Feels a lot worse. Half those wins came in their first year. Still feels pretty bad to see Illinois basketball on par with the worst programs in the conference.

Kind of brings me to another point. Are a lot of the apologists very young and not familiar with how good Illinois basketball can be? I was a freshman the year we lost in the final to UNC. It's only been downhill since then but I still remember Illinois from my jr high years through college as being the top or nearly the top program in the big ten. Feels so weird to see people clamoring to keep a guy who hasn't made the tournament in 4 straight years.
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Old Feb 16, 2017, 11:33 AM   #5703
RockfordIllini
Posts: 118
I don't think we should keep Groce solely out of fear of losing this recruiting class. It's a very nice class, but certainly nowhere near program changing. Tilmon should step in right away and play but probably won't have the kind of impact people are clamoring for. Diamond Stone got 12 and 5 as a freshman. Swanigan got 10 and 8 last year. Great freshmen seasons but hardly program changing. To expect anything more from Tilmon is unrealistic. The rest of the players have skills we desperately need (i.e. quickness, athleticism) but are all borderline top 100 players at best. Not saying any of them can't develop into stars but we have to be realistic. Both Black and JCL were much higher ranked than those 3, and have hardly been program changing. DJW was ranked higher as well and Jordan was also a borderline top 100 talent and neither of those guys can see the floor. If Groce is the wrong coach (and I think he is), this class isn't talented enough to gloss over his ineffectiveness.


Furthermore, you bring in the right coach, all of that recruiting (or re-recruiting) takes care of itself. Groce was the first to offer Goodwin and was on him since, what, 8th grade? Freshman year? And Ford locks him up within 2-3 months of being named HC and SLU. We are still a top 15 all time program in a P5 conference with national TV exposure and proximity to the 3rd largest TV market in the country. With the right coach, it won't be hard to re-sell this program to these guys IMO. And even if we do lose 1-2, if a new coach can get this roster (full of 4* talent) to play up to its potential, small price to pay IMO.


I rooted for Groce. Great guy. Great character. Hard worker. Maybe hasn't always had the best of luck. But it's time for a change Good luck to him.
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Old Feb 16, 2017, 11:48 AM   #5704
Kathy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlliniInOK View Post
If you cannot make an argument for keeping Coach Groce beyond "We can keep our recruits!" or "We might not get an A+ guy to replace him!" then he shouldn't stay. Honestly, I don't think there is a single argument that can be made that would convince me that he should stay. Even if we make a run through the BTT and then catch fire in the NCAAs and win a game or two, the season was still a disaster up to this point and when combined with the previous 3 years of NCAA misses is plenty of reason to fire him.

Great guy, decent recruiter, probably a poor coach, possibly the worst stretch of results in Illinois basketball history, all things considered.
Both of those excuses to keep him are pretty good reasons, especially if you couple them together!
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Old Feb 16, 2017, 11:53 AM   #5705
mattcoldagelli
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Originally Posted by Kathy View Post
Both of those excuses to keep him are pretty good reasons, especially if you couple them together!
Except they're not at all.

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Old Feb 16, 2017, 11:55 AM   #5706
FollowTisdale
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You always hear people say "the grass isn't always greener on the other side"; describes a situation where your in somewhat comfort and want to jump to an unknown because the reward could be great but isn't always.

We're sitting in a vacant lot. There is no grass. It's just sticks and mud. John Groce and Co. has tore up the little bit of grass that was left in the corner when Bruce left. He's backing up a truck full of salt to spread over the dirt as we speak. I can hear the beeps of basketball infertility from here.

The grass literally can't be any less green on the other side. Any living, breathing basketball coach could make the grass grow better than Groce has done in the last 5 seasons.
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Old Feb 16, 2017, 11:55 AM   #5707
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Originally Posted by Kathy View Post
Both of those excuses to keep him are pretty good reasons, especially if you couple them together!
Sarcasm, yes? My meter isn't working well.
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Old Feb 16, 2017, 11:58 AM   #5708
FollowTisdale
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Originally Posted by Illiniguy13 View Post
I was chit-chatting Illini hoops with a couple folks and they seemed pretty adamant that Groce might not have a head coaching gig after getting the boot. I still think he'll end up coaching in a low-major conference after this year, no?
We'll be swapping coaches with UNC-W
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Old Feb 16, 2017, 12:06 PM   #5709
TCTORNADO
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Tomorrow (2/17) will be Josh Whitman's 1 year anniversary on the job. A lot of activity for a year.
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Old Feb 16, 2017, 12:15 PM   #5710
Tron2010
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I would think if it was a given in JW's mind that Groce would be retained for at least one more year it would have been made public by now. Not sure keeping it private accomplishes much. I don't think he's here next year for this reason alone.
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Old Feb 16, 2017, 12:17 PM   #5711
Calvin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FollowTisdale View Post
You always hear people say "the grass isn't always greener on the other side"

We're sitting in a vacant lot. There is no grass.
+1

I don't see how bottom half of the BIG, consistent tourney misses, and complete irrelevance can be thought of as having risk. I just don't see any meaningful downside.

Granted, losing anyone in this recruiting class would suck, as there's a lot of potential there. But looking at what Groce has done with his guys, there's no risk when it comes to results. Whether we're 4-14 in the BIG or 5-13, or 6-12 makes no difference to me.
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Old Feb 16, 2017, 12:19 PM   #5712
OrangeAndBlues
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Originally Posted by Kathy View Post
Both of those excuses to keep him are pretty good reasons, especially if you couple them together!
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Old Feb 16, 2017, 12:26 PM   #5713
RedRocksIllini
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FollowTisdale View Post
You always hear people say "the grass isn't always greener on the other side"; describes a situation where your in somewhat comfort and want to jump to an unknown because the reward could be great but isn't always.

We're sitting in a vacant lot. There is no grass. It's just sticks and mud. John Groce and Co. has tore up the little bit of grass that was left in the corner when Bruce left. He's backing up a truck full of salt to spread over the dirt as we speak. I can hear the beeps of basketball infertility from here.

The grass literally can't be any less green on the other side. Any living, breathing basketball coach could make the grass grow better than Groce has done in the last 5 seasons.
I think he's been watering the grass with a sports drink. I've said similar before...not sure how wide and high the pile needs to get before some people figure out that something smells. If you have a choice between continuing to stand in the pile or move and you choose to stay, well then, bon appetit.
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Old Feb 16, 2017, 12:27 PM   #5714
BananaShampoo
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Originally Posted by Tron2010 View Post
I would think if it was a given in JW's mind that Groce would be retained for at least one more year it would have been made public by now. Not sure keeping it private accomplishes much. I don't think he's here next year for this reason alone.
That's a good point. I haven't seen any public votes of confidence that he'll be around next year by anyone, our AD included. That should be somewhat telling.

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Old Feb 16, 2017, 12:46 PM   #5715
HC Illini
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illiniguy13 View Post
I was chit-chatting Illini hoops with a couple folks and they seemed pretty adamant that Groce might not have a head coaching gig after getting the boot. I still think he'll end up coaching in a low-major conference after this year, no?
I'm gonna guess Miami Ohio or Cleveland State. Just a guess.
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Old Feb 16, 2017, 12:48 PM   #5716
Tevo
Location: Wilmette, IL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FollowTisdale View Post
You always hear people say "the grass isn't always greener on the other side"; describes a situation where your in somewhat comfort and want to jump to an unknown because the reward could be great but isn't always.

We're sitting in a vacant lot. There is no grass. It's just sticks and mud. John Groce and Co. has tore up the little bit of grass that was left in the corner when Bruce left. He's backing up a truck full of salt to spread over the dirt as we speak. I can hear the beeps of basketball infertility from here.

The grass literally can't be any less green on the other side. Any living, breathing basketball coach could make the grass grow better than Groce has done in the last 5 seasons.

We DREAM about living in a vacant lot with sticks and mud!

We're living in lake! We have to get up every morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of hot gravel, work a twenty hour day at the mill, and then when he come home, our dad thrashes us with a broken bottle. That's the life of an Illini fan today!
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Old Feb 16, 2017, 01:08 PM   #5717
MadMan
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Originally Posted by Tevo View Post
We DREAM about living in a vacant lot with sticks and mud!

We're living in lake! We have to get up every morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of hot gravel, work a twenty hour day at the mill, and then when he come home, our dad thrashes us with a broken bottle. That's the life of an Illini fan today!
I was going to say that WE LIVE IN A VAN, DOWN BY THE RIVER! But your's works too.

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Old Feb 16, 2017, 01:10 PM   #5718
skibdaddy
Posts: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by FollowTisdale View Post
You always hear people say "the grass isn't always greener on the other side"; describes a situation where your in somewhat comfort and want to jump to an unknown because the reward could be great but isn't always.

We're sitting in a vacant lot. There is no grass. It's just sticks and mud. John Groce and Co. has tore up the little bit of grass that was left in the corner when Bruce left. He's backing up a truck full of salt to spread over the dirt as we speak. I can hear the beeps of basketball infertility from here.

The grass literally can't be any less green on the other side. Any living, breathing basketball coach could make the grass grow better than Groce has done in the last 5 seasons.
Great analogy... While I don't think we are a vacant lot just yet. We are more like a field of underperforming grass that gets watered by our gardener with too much with praise that it can't grow deep roots to weather the occasional storm or foot traffic.

We also have a solid shipment of sod coming next year, but with the current situation it will just be overwatered again like our current grass. If we choose the right gardener in a few months this sod not only will arrive to our field in tact, but also flourish.

The key is finding the right gardener for our plot. If we hire Dopey the hose hand to run the gardening we could be in a worse situation than we're in now. I'm 97.8% confident Whitman will make the change this year and I will be all in on his decision. We just need to be patient because he won't make a change until he has his man.
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Old Feb 16, 2017, 01:33 PM   #5719
Swamp Donkey
Posts: 55
Not arguing for his retention at all. Love the guy, hate the results. What I am saying is, if JW goes shopping with a list of 4-5 and doesn't find a taker, I would be ok with keeping a lame duck coach to keep this recruiting class. I also believe that if he had a year to concentrate his efforts, he would fill his shopping list in 2018. Just have to wonder what inroads he has made in several months
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Old Feb 16, 2017, 01:34 PM   #5720
618Illini
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NC State job is now open
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Old Feb 16, 2017, 01:36 PM   #5721
Kathy
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Originally Posted by Tron2010 View Post
I would think if it was a given in JW's mind that Groce would be retained for at least one more year it would have been made public by now. Not sure keeping it private accomplishes much. I don't think he's here next year for this reason alone.
I hadn't thought about this point. You might be right. Good point.
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Old Feb 16, 2017, 01:37 PM   #5722
illinoisfan11
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Originally Posted by 618Illini View Post
NC State job is now open


Interesting timing.
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Old Feb 16, 2017, 01:38 PM   #5723
Dan
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Gottfried will remain the NC State head coach through the remainder of the season.

http://gopack.com/news/2017/2/16/nc-...ng-season.aspx
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Old Feb 16, 2017, 01:39 PM   #5724
MadtownIllin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrudenceJuris View Post
Apparently, sir, you never heard of Harv Schmidt.




Having spent my 4 years there during the debacle that was Illinois basketball, I can say with confidence that we're not quite there yet but if we wait any longer without making a change we will be able to achieve that level of ineptitude once again and we can all relive the 70's (bell bottoms, plaid, and disco excluded please)...
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Old Feb 16, 2017, 01:43 PM   #5725
Obelix
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Originally Posted by Tron2010 View Post
I would think if it was a given in JW's mind that Groce would be retained for at least one more year it would have been made public by now. Not sure keeping it private accomplishes much. I don't think he's here next year for this reason alone.
Whitman will not make an announcement either way before the season is over, no matter what that decision will be.
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