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Bruce Weber on the Hot Seat - Possible Coaching Replacements

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Old Feb 16, 2012, 01:41 PM   #651
cantplay
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Really?

Jabari Parker and Illinois in the same sentence? I thought most had the sense to move on.

Unless UI hires Sonny, he isn't going to U of I. Wish I was wrong though.
This is like the IDKWTI deal. MT has to hire the one person who can get Parker to stay in state, above board of course. EDIT: I'd also go so far as consulting Sonny on potential replacements.

With the hall renovation and the class of 13 and 14, I view this as a $100M hire. We are at an obviously critical juncture and should have no limit on the amount of money we are willing to spend to secure UI hoops' future.

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Old Feb 16, 2012, 01:43 PM   #652
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I would not disagree that Illinois is behind right now the programs that you mentioned and we have Weber to thank for that. Since the last players who were recruited and played for Self left, it has been the worst stretch in our school's history since the late 70s. So no argument there.

But you mentioned the Illinois "coaching" job as mid-level BT job (in the context of Stevens) and you tried to justify your response by how you will advise a kid (a player) for the next 4 years. How is that relevant? Indiana had been atrocious for the last few years until this year. Would you have considered the IU job a low level BT job?

And coming back to your example of advising kids, since Indiana had been so bad until this year, I assume you would have also advised kids like Zeller, Perea, Ferrell and Hollowell against IU. Correct? I am following your logic. Obviously they did not base their decision to that logic, correct?

I'd advise any kid to avoid what could be a coaching change, I know that. Indiana never had any issue who would be the coach.

I tell the guys "If you aren't playing basketball, would you still want to be there?"
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 01:45 PM   #653
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This coaching search will be fascinating. With football, I didn't care if we got a guy with a reputation as a great recruiter. I just wanted someone who will instill discipline in his team, because I got so tired of watching Zook-coached teams shoot themselves in the foot game after game. But with basketball, the new coach must be able to recruit Chicago well. Weber dug himself a huge hole by recruiting poorly his first few/several years at Illinois. By the time he got things turned around, we were already mediocre.
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 01:46 PM   #654
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I'd advise any kid to avoid what could be a coaching change, I know that. Indiana never had any issue who would be the coach.

I tell the guys "If you aren't playing basketball, would you still want to be there?"
Well seeing is that Illinois will likely be naming a new coach in the next two months, we can be confident that there won't be another coaching change for at least another four years or so.
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 01:47 PM   #655
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You'd certainly hope so.
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 01:48 PM   #656
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AAU,

I appreciate your honesty and I take you at your word for what you know, but I disagree with you too. I mean, how many programs are excelling to coach for when a coach is going to be fired? What would you have said about IU with the whole Davis/Sampson/Crean fiasco and they are still blah to me. Crean is not exactly on fire for being an X's and O's coach. However, you seem very high on him. Although the recruiting has picked up for them and they will be on the rise.

I love watching Izzo and Belein (although Michigan is not really rich traditionally speaking - outside of cheating and the recruiting is okay) so I don't blame you for that. tOSU is good and Matta can recruit but after this year, would you say that the talent for tOSU is better than Illinois? Also, tOSU has been notorious for being shady in recruiting in football & basketball and Matta still seems to have questions from some on his recruiting tactics.

Historically, Illinois is one of the top 15 programs of all-time with albeit challenging, but access to Chicago. That in itself is exciting. While the talent might not be top 3 of big10 right now, it is pretty good for the next coach coming in (if there are no de-commits or transfers). Also, Butler's recruiting is better than Jalen James and Malcolm Hill - your a tough evaluator? Butler probably has good recruiting, but I don't take any of the recruits over those 2.

Seriously, Wisconsin over Illinois as a coaching gig (generally - not including Shaka - since from there). What overwhelming deep run and talents do they have on the roster?

I don't put us on elite such as Duke, Kentucky, IU, Kansas, NC, UCLA, etc..., but we are high up on the next tier. However, historically, geographically, Illinois has to be right up there in the Big10 in terms of coaching gigs (better than Iowa, better normally than tOSU, better than Michigan normally, definitely better than Wisconsin).

I don't blame Stevens for not coming, but middling team; seriously.

Your entitled to your opinion, but I strongly disagree on talent of roster and set up - it might take a year, but Bertrand is only a soph, Abrams a Frosh, Henry and Egwu Frosh, and I am pretty high on Langford. Combine that with J. James and Hill, and I am pretty high on decent young talent to combine with solid vets next year. With better coaching, I think we can make the tourney easily next year.

I am sorry, but I think you have a little bias against Illinois overall (you send recruits and I appreciate it) but you have a little bias against them. Am I expecting an elite hire from an elite school - no, but I think we have to be one of the top 15 programs in the nation, decent cupboard of talent to stock, and access to Chicago. Michigan and Wisky don't have that natural access. They could always hire a Nat'l coach, but historically, they don't have the opportunities that U of I has.

Thank you for the honesty though. I do like hearing your feedback.
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 01:53 PM   #657
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Everyone has an opinion. The good part of a message board.

Langford looked ok at some practices I've been to but I don't think he'll do a ton.

I am big on Bertrand, like Henry and Egwu. Don't love Abrams.

I think Ohio State's job is better because of how much money they have behind the program. Michigan just spent a ton on a renovation and it looks great and their new locker room and player lounges look incredible (as they should for the money spent).
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 01:53 PM   #658
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AAU -

Any thoughts on who, if any players might transfer when Weber is let go?

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Old Feb 16, 2012, 01:55 PM   #659
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Chicago has two parts: the clean part. And the dirty part.

You can't get kids from both.

Whoever Illinois hires will have this same issue whichever side he picks to run with.
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 01:55 PM   #660
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I'd advise any kid to avoid what could be a coaching change, I know that. Indiana never had any issue who would be the coach.

I tell the guys "If you aren't playing basketball, would you still want to be there?"
If you mean that you would advise a kid not to commit to Illinois and Weber since Weber may be gone, I do not think anyone would disagree here. But it is pretty much a done deal that Weber will be gone. I think the correct advice would be to see who will be the next coach and advise the kid to decide then.

But you still avoided the main question of a "coach" considering the UI job (which was your main point in the context of Stevens) and stated that the UI job is a mid level job. You then responded in the context of advising a kid (which was irrelevant IMO). Since IU had been atrocious for a few years until this year, did you consider the IU job a low level BT job?
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 01:55 PM   #661
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AAU -

Any thoughts on who, if any players might transfer when Weber is let go?
Henry was very close to leaving at Christmas time and Shaw may not stick around.
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 01:56 PM   #662
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If you mean that you would advise a kid not to commit to Illinois and Weber since Weber may be gone, I do not think anyone would disagree here. But it is pretty much a done deal that Weber will be gone. I think the correct advice would be to see who will be the next coach and advise the kid to decide then.

But you still avoided the main question of a "coach" considering the UI job (which was your main point in the context of Stevens) and stated that the UI job is a mid level job. You then responded in the context of advising a kid (which was irrelevant IMO). Since IU had been atrocious for a few years until this year, did you consider the IU job a low level BT job?
I've always considered the Indiana job an "elite" job.

Just my opinion.
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 01:57 PM   #663
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Henry was very close to leaving at Christmas time and Shaw may not stick around.
Thanks.

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Old Feb 16, 2012, 02:00 PM   #664
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Everyone has an opinion. The good part of a message board.

Langford looked ok at some practices I've been to but I don't think he'll do a ton.

I am big on Bertrand, like Henry and Egwu. Don't love Abrams.

I think Ohio State's job is better because of how much money they have behind the program. Michigan just spent a ton on a renovation and it looks great and their new locker room and player lounges look incredible (as they should for the money spent).
Oh, most of us know that tOSU has Money$ behind their programs. Just like the dirty side of recruiting.

I understand about coaching changes, but I really disagree with your middling comment when you include Wisconsin into the picture. Illinois should be exciting in my opinion because Ubben is pretty nice and they are going to try and fundraise for the next gig. I would think some competitive coaches might want to take that into consideration.

However, universally speaking only MSU and IU could normally be in the same spot (MSU cause of Izzo and IU just because they are IU). tOSU is full of cheat so I couldn't send my kids there. I like Beilein, but in general, I don't normally think of Michigan as great basketball.

I do hope we get Shaka Smart though - like you said.
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 02:02 PM   #665
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Chicago has two parts: the clean part. And the dirty part.

You can't get kids from both.

Whoever Illinois hires will have this same issue whichever side he picks to run with.
You could argue this about many facets of Chicago.

Sounds like we'd be behind the 8-ball either way. Hope we can get someone who recruits other recruiting hotbeds easily.

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Old Feb 16, 2012, 02:03 PM   #666
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Saying Ohio State is dirty doesn't dismiss the fact they have a big-time arena and an incredible practice facility with a coach the kids like to play for.

And they have history: more Final 4's than any other Big Ten team.

Michigan's new digs are incredible, Wisconsin has a fantastic arena, Indiana's new practice facility is world-class.

Kids like playing in nice places. Facilities are underrated.

And all the money Illinois is pouring them in isn't putting them ahead of everyone. It's about getting level.
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 02:03 PM   #667
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Henry was very close to leaving at Christmas time and Shaw may not stick around.
fwiw, an I know it could change, Shaw and TA just got their house lined up for next year in C-U. It was just reported a few weeks ago.
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 02:03 PM   #668
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I've always considered the Indiana job an "elite" job.

Just my opinion.
And that is fine but you justified considering the UI job a mid-level job based on the current results (not even the results of the last few years) ... that is behind IU, Michigan, MSU, OSU, Wisconsin etc. I mean even if you consider cumulative Weber results the last few years, we are still better than IU and Michigan.

It seems to me you always considered IU an elite job (and I would not disagree on that) based on a different justification than the one you used for Illinois. I mean it is ok to say "for me, IU is an elite job and UI is a mid-level BT job" but not fair to try to justify your UI coaching job classification on a justification that does not apply to IU or others. Fair is fair, right?
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 02:04 PM   #669
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And that is fine but you justified considering the UI job a mid-level job based on the current results (not even the results of the last few years) ... that is behind IU, Michigan, MSU, OSU, Wisconsin etc. I mean even if you consider cumulative Weber results the last few years, we are still better than IU and Michigan.

It seems to me you always considered IU an elite job (and I would not disagree on that) based on a different justification than the one you used for Illinois. I mean it is ok to say "for me, IU is an elite job and UI is a mid-level BT job" but not fair to try to justify your UI coaching job classification on a justification that does not apply to IU or others. Fair is fair, right?
Ok, what do you think makes a great job?

We'll talk about it.
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 02:05 PM   #670
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Kellen Dunham is one of the better players I saw on the AAU circuit. Absolute monster.
I respect your opinion, and hope you do the same with mine, as I disagree regarding Butler outrecruiting Illinois. Right now, its not even close.
Regarding Dunham, I watched him get manhandled by other players that I felt should have an edge on him at a couple of AAU tourneys this past year. He came to mind when I thought of someone who would be a great fit at a Butler, Creighton, Northern Iowa, or SIU type of program.

Everyone was saying the same thing about Hopkins a year ago. He has high major athleticism, but his overall skillset is better suited for mid-major. Otto Porter is the kid I REALLY wanted out of Missouri. For some reason, he was a sleeper on many high major recruiting sheets, and I never understood it because his size, skillset and tenacity always made for an unbeatable combination. He's really breaking out at G'town. Thank goodness he didn't join Missouri, or they could very well be the #1 team.
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 02:05 PM   #671
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I've always considered the Indiana job an "elite" job.

Just my opinion.
And yet Indiana has only been past the 2nd round twice in the last 18 years and missed the NCAA tournament 5 of the last 8 seasons.
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 02:07 PM   #672
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fwiw, an I know it could change, Shaw and TA just got their house lined up for next year in C-U. It was just reported a few weeks ago.
MANY players consider leaving early in their careers (e.g. Evan Turner considered transferring after his freshman year at OSU.) The academic, personal and basketball transitions are difficult. Most don't play as much as they expected coming out of high school.

While it is normal to lose a player every year, most do not end up transferring, particularly those with a bright future at their current institution.

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Old Feb 16, 2012, 02:08 PM   #673
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Saying Ohio State is dirty doesn't dismiss the fact they have a big-time arena and an incredible practice facility with a coach the kids like to play for.

And they have history: more Final 4's than any other Big Ten team.

Michigan's new digs are incredible, Wisconsin has a fantastic arena, Indiana's new practice facility is world-class.

Kids like playing in nice places. Facilities are underrated.

And all the money Illinois is pouring them in isn't putting them ahead of everyone. It's about getting level.
Ubben is nice by all accounts, and the players are not sitting in AH or using the bathrooms or concessions so it should be fine to play in / it used to have great crowds and atmosphere. UI facilities are overall good.. I now some are better but its not like we are practicing at Huff
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 02:09 PM   #674
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And yet Indiana has only been past the 2nd round twice in the last 18 years and missed the NCAA tournament 5 of the last 8 seasons.
And in the last 10 years has as many wins in the Final 4 (one) as Illinois does in school history and you could make a claim it was the worst decade in IU basketball since the 1950's.

If you don't think Indiana is one of the top 5-6 jobs in the country with the support they have from fans, administration and athletic department, that is fine.

We both have opinions. I think it's great.
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 02:10 PM   #675
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Ok, what do you think makes a great job?

We'll talk about it.
For me a few things: history and tradition complimented by historical winning records (%, number of wins, etc.), NCAA tournament success, student body and support, recruiting base (fertility of recruiting grounds), facilities, resources and administrative support, ability to make money in your program (see Forbes report), academic reputation to attract student athletes at all levels and graduate them,etc. Probably a few others.
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