Art of pitching and the radar gun

[pizzaman]

I listened to portions of Fresh Air last night and Bob Ojeda was the guest talking about pitching and pain. At one point he said "the art of pitching has been lost to the radar gun." His point is that throwing hard and pain are inseperable. Steroids? Who knows?

I've noticed that Greg Maddux type pitchers don't seem to exist anymore but guys throwing 95 mph are everywhere.

Here's the question I've never gotten answered. When the radar gun indicates the speed of a pitch in baseball or a serve in tennis, is that the top speed or the average speed over the flight of the ball. Anybody know?

Interesting interview: http://www.npr.org/templates/rundown...ate=06-19-2012

[illynifan34]

Originally Posted by pizzaman

I listened to portions of Fresh Air last night and Bob Ojeda was the guest talking about pitching and pain. At one point he said "the art of pitching has been lost to the radar gun." His point is that throwing hard and pain are inseperable. Steroids? Who knows?

I've noticed that Greg Maddux type pitchers don't seem to exist anymore but guys throwing 95 mph are everywhere.

Here's the question I've never gotten answered. When the radar gun indicates the speed of a pitch in baseball or a serve in tennis, is that the top speed or the average speed over the flight of the ball. Anybody know?

Interesting interview: http://www.npr.org/templates/rundown...ate=06-19-2012

Since the radar guns use the Doppler Effect, it is neither the average speed, nor the maximum speed. It is the speed at the time and place where the gun is pointed of anything moving in its field.

The gun measures how a frequency it sends out changes and uses that frequency change to calculate the speed of the object changing the frequency.

[Sure Shot]

Originally Posted by pizzaman

I've noticed that Greg Maddux type pitchers don't seem to exist anymore but guys throwing 95 mph are everywhere.

When Greg Maddux was making a joke of the National League in the mid-90's he was throwing in the 90's in addition to his total mastery of the art of pitching.

Greg Maddux's don't exist anymore because Greg Maddux was, for my money, the single greatest pitcher who ever lived.

[IntenselyOrange]

Originally Posted by Sure Shot

When Greg Maddux was making a joke of the National League in the mid-90's he was throwing in the 90's in addition to his total mastery of the art of pitching.

Greg Maddux's don't exist anymore because Greg Maddux was, for my money, the single greatest pitcher who ever lived.

I don't know about the best ever, but certainly in the top 10. And once you're in that group, you can make an argument for any. What he did was amazing. And he didn't even require the 10 foot wide strike zone that Glavine did. He often got the benefit of the call. But just as often, I was sure a pitch he threw was way off the plate only to see it dart over the corner at the last second from the above view.

[pizzaman]

Originally Posted by illynifan34

Since the radar guns use the Doppler Effect, it is neither the average speed, nor the maximum speed. It is the speed at the time and place where the gun is pointed of anything moving in its field.

The gun measures how a frequency it sends out changes and uses that frequency change to calculate the speed of the object changing the frequency.

Thank you illynifan for the answer and explanation.

[chiefhaunting]

Greg Maddux's average fastball speed was 85 mph, and the average speed for a fastball in the majors these days is 90.2 mph, if memory serves me correct.

The major difference these days is the attention given to anything 95 mph or above. Yet Moyer won many games over 4 decades with a fastball that probably never broke 85.

[KBLEE]

Originally Posted by chiefhaunting

Greg Maddux's average fastball speed was 85 mph, and the average speed for a fastball in the majors these days is 90.2 mph, if memory serves me correct.

Maddux's fastball may have been around 85 in the last few years of his career, but it sat in the low 90s during his prime.

[touper]

The most impressive pitching performance I ever witnessed in person -

Maddux (ATL) vs the Cubs at Wrigley in July 1997. 78 pitches 2 hours, 7 minutes 4-1 victory for the Braves.

He didn't dominate a game like a Clemens or Randy Johnson with a high number of strike outs and ridiculous stuff. He just went out and hit his spots and out-worked, out-prepared, out-thought his opponents for a long, long time.

Easily a top 10 pitcher all time....

[IntenselyOrange]

Originally Posted by touper

The most impressive pitching performance I ever witnessed in person -

Maddux (ATL) vs the Cubs at Wrigley in July 1997. 78 pitches 2 hours, 7 minutes 4-1 victory for the Braves.

He didn't dominate a game like a Clemens or Randy Johnson with a high number of strike outs and ridiculous stuff. He just went out and hit his spots and out-worked, out-prepared, out-thought his opponents for a long, long time.

Easily a top 10 pitcher all time....

Easily? I do think he's top 10, but it is probably debatable.

He's 8th in career WAR.
He's tied for 30th in career ERA+.
He's 10th in strikeouts.

A lot comes down to what you value in a pitcher. There are probably 15 pitchers that you could make legitimate arguments for over Maddux - which is miniscule when you consider the number of pitchers in history.

For the record, I'd put only the following 6 ahead of him

Cy Young
Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Tom Seaver
Roger Clemens (Roids not withstanding)
Randy Johnson (Very close in my opinion)

Koufax and Pedro had better peak years, but just didn't last long enough.

[chiefhaunting]

you would put Randy Johnson and Roger Clemens ahead of him but not Nolan Ryan?

[Thacher_H_Guild]

In his prime, Maddux usually threw his fastball in the upper 80s or low 90s. From an article in 2000:

His fastball is typically 89-90 mph, which is just average major league velocity.http://www.baseball-almanac.com/quot...x_quotes.shtml

He COULD throw it harder. I saw an interview of him once where he said that in the very first part of his career with the Cubs (when he had an ERA over 5.0), he thought that because he was in the bigs he had to throw it as hard as he could--so he did, and he could touch the mid-90s occasionally. But eventually he figured out that he got more movement throwing his fastball at a comfortable speed, and that changing speeds and locations was more effective than a straight fastball that was just slightly above the MLB average. When things got tough, he threw SOFTER rather than harder.

FWIW, this is not a new issue. A LONG time ago I read Bill (Spaceman) Lee's book, and he bemoaned that the radar gun had made it so that guys like him wouldn't make the majors anymore because everyone is chasing speed. His time was about 20 years before Maddux, but he was wrong--there is still a place for crafty pitchers (especially left handed ones like the Spaceman).

[IntenselyOrange]

Originally Posted by chiefhaunting

you would put Randy Johnson and Roger Clemens ahead of him but not Nolan Ryan?

Absolutely.

Nolan Ryan in my opinion was vastly over-rated. Sure he had a bunch of strikeouts and no hitters. But even with all those strikeouts his K/BB ratio was barely over 2. His WHIP was 1.24 and his ERA+ was 112. To put that ERA+ in perspective, that leaves him tied with Wilson Alvarez, Kelvim Escobar, Eric Plunk and others for 270th in MLB history.

Nolan was good, but not nearly on the level of the top 10. He might not even be in the top 20.