Politics

[Sure Shot]

Originally Posted by pizzaman

To solve a problem leaders need to be pragmatic. It's not happening.

To get pragmatic leaders, voters need to demand pragmatism.

[illinirazorback]

Word of the day: "LOL" - I have no argument that holds water.

[illinirazorback]

Originally Posted by pizzaman

I'm old and sick of all the crap both sides claim to believe in. To solve a problem leaders need to be pragmatic. It's not happening.

I'm sick of it, too. Problem is that there isn't much hope on the horizon of changing things in a big way, short of another revolution. Therefore, we're stuck picking the lesser of two evils. It's just fairly obvious that liberalism is more evil.

Now, try to take guns away or something, then you'll get your revolution.

[Sure Shot]

Originally Posted by illinirazorback

Word of the day: "LOL" - I have no argument that holds water.

Not worth my time. This is why I want to marshal all of our federal resources to improving the education and critical reasoning ability of our youth. It's too late for people like you.

[illinirazorback]

Originally Posted by Sure Shot

Not worth my time. This is why I want to marshal all of our federal resources to improving the education and critical reasoning ability of our youth. It's too late for people like you.

Not worth your time, huh? Then why reply? Because this is you saying you're better than me, which further proves you are what we think you are: a flaming liberal. It also means you are no better than the filth you claim you so despise.

I'll bet I've had more education than you, and I'd put my critical reasoning ability up against yours any day. You talk a big game in on an anonymous web board, so congrats for that.

[Sure Shot]

Originally Posted by illinirazorback

Not worth your time, huh? Then why reply? Because this is you saying you're better than me, which further proves you are what we think you are: a flaming liberal. It also means you are no better than the filth you claim you so despise.

I'll bet I've had more education than you, and I'd put my critical reasoning ability up against yours any day. You talk a big game in on an anonymous web board, so congrats for that.

I mean, you're right, there's no point in going on like some internet tough guy, so I'll just stop.

[illinirazorback]

Originally Posted by Sure Shot

I mean, you're right, there's no point in going on like some internet tough guy, so I'll just stop.

Good.

For the record, I hope you don't stop with the constructive, reasoned responses. Just the other crap.

I mean, what am I supposed to take from the LOLs? If you've got something else for me then by all means, lay it on us. I mean, take the news one. Really? What's so funny about that? Sure, a lot of those were generalizations. That doesn't make them wholly untrue.

[DaytonIllini]

Originally Posted by illinirazorback

Word of the day: "LOL" - I have no argument that holds water.

I was thinking exactly the same thing. Also, I totally disagree with this and know that I will betray my true colors so instead I will heap scorn on it. Very typical liberal playbook stuff right there.

[DaytonIllini]

Originally Posted by pizzaman

Like trickle down economics is actually beneficial to the middle class?

I'm old and sick of all the crap both sides claim to believe in. To solve a problem leaders need to be pragmatic. It's not happening.

Well, I was actually thinking things like.

The murder rate would be the same if there were no guns.

The Earth is 80K years old and we should teach that in the schools as valid biology.

The US should police the world.

We need to increase our defense spending because we are not safe spending $1 trillion a year.

Giving rich people in great school districts money to send their kids to private schools would be a good idea.

Drugs are awful and should be illegal.

The government should stay out of my business except when it comes to defining morality.

God actually wrote the Bible (all 1000 versions of it) in English!

It's okay to create a police state so that we don't have any deaths from terrorism.

It's easy to ignore the thousands of murders a year in the inner cities.

That kind of stuff.

[IntenselyOrange]

Originally Posted by Sure Shot

Not worth my time. This is why I want to marshal all of our federal resources to improving the education and critical reasoning ability of our youth. It's too late for people like you.

But, but, but....I know I've argued with you regarding health care and welfare. I know you've argued that we should be spending more tax dollars on these programs rather than less.

The quoted statement I agree with. Unfortunately, most of your other posts run counter to this attitude.

[IntenselyOrange]

Originally Posted by Sure Shot

Not worth my time. This is why I want to marshal all of our federal resources to improving the education and critical reasoning ability of our youth. It's too late for people like you.

I'm quoting this again to make a few points on which we'd likely disagree.

1. If schooling was revamped properly, I believe we would use less money to produce better educated people.
2. I don't really care if it's the government that fixes education or if it is innovated and financed privately. The latter is much more likely.
3. We need to spend more (not less) money on those students with high aptitudes. It sounds cruel, but way too much money is spent on people who don't really have the ability to much more than janitors. Don't get me wrong. Janitors serve a necessary function and it is a respectable occupation. But in order for the US to lead the world in innovation our resources should be spent on those that will do the innovating.

[IntenselyOrange]

Originally Posted by DaytonIllini

Well, I was actually thinking things like.

The murder rate would be the same if there were no guns.

The Earth is 80K years old and we should teach that in the schools as valid biology.

The US should police the world.

We need to increase our defense spending because we are not safe spending $1 trillion a year.

Giving rich people in great school districts money to send their kids to private schools would be a good idea.

Drugs are awful and should be illegal.

The government should stay out of my business except when it comes to defining morality.

God actually wrote the Bible (all 1000 versions of it) in English!

It's okay to create a police state so that we don't have any deaths from terrorism.

It's easy to ignore the thousands of murders a year in the inner cities.

That kind of stuff.

You realize that with this post and your similar anti-liberalism post you've hit on most of the issues that people vote on.

[illinirazorback]

Originally Posted by IntenselyOrange

I'm quoting this again to make a few points on which we'd likely disagree.

1. If schooling was revamped properly, I believe we would use less money to produce better educated people.
2. I don't really care if it's the government that fixes education or if it is innovated and financed privately. The latter is much more likely.
3. We need to spend more (not less) money on those students with high aptitudes. It sounds cruel, but way too much money is spent on people who don't really have the ability to much more than janitors. Don't get me wrong. Janitors serve a necessary function and it is a respectable occupation. But in order for the US to lead the world in innovation our resources should be spent on those that will do the innovating.

I read his post much more simply than that. I think he meant that we could spend trillions on education and I would still be stupid.

[IntenselyOrange]

Originally Posted by illinirazorback

I read his post much more simply than that. I think he meant that we could spend trillions on education and I would still be stupid.

Yep, and I agreed.

I focused simply on using resources to improve education. I'm 100% for that. What I'm not for however is just throwing more money at the problem. It's sort of like spending money on landscaping for your house when the foundation is in shambles and the roof full of leaks.

[illinirazorback]

Originally Posted by IntenselyOrange

Yep, and I agreed.

I focused simply on using resources to improve education. I'm 100% for that. What I'm not for however is just throwing more money at the problem. It's sort of like spending money on landscaping for your house when the foundation is in shambles and the roof full of leaks.

As the owner of a part-time landscaping business, I would still be in favor of this however.

[pizzaman]

Originally Posted by illinirazorback

Therefore, we're stuck picking the lesser of two evils. It's just fairly obvious that liberalism is more evil.

The lesser of two evils is still evil. More evil vs. less evil, sounds like one of those Japanese monster movies, Godzilla vs. Mothra, who you gonna hope wins?

[pizzaman]

Originally Posted by IntenselyOrange

It's sort of like spending money on landscaping for your house when the foundation is in shambles and the roof full of leaks.

Just like politics, cover up the real problems and focus on how good the flowers and shrubs are doing this year.

[illinirazorback]

Originally Posted by pizzaman

The lesser of two evils is still evil. More evil vs. less evil, sounds like one of those Japanese monster movies, Godzilla vs. Mothra, who you gonna hope wins?

Sure it's still evil. We agree. I'm just saying we have to pick. I'm not saying I don't wish it was another way, just short of something very jarring we are stuck with this system for a while.

I just question how much longer this is going to go on. Most Americans are stupid and don't pay attention, and they fear conflict. Hell, they don't even like yelling. I just think if we keep going down these tracks, some people are finally going to say enough is enough.

[pizzaman]

Originally Posted by illinirazorback

I just think if we keep going down these tracks, some people are finally going to say enough is enough.

I don't know how old you are. I'm 62. Your statement, quoted above, could have come from me 40 years ago. Now I don't believe people have the fortitude to ever say enough is enough. I'm not talking about violence but requiring honesty and intelligent solutions from elected officials rather than slogans.

Obama tapped into discontent with "change you can believe in." So plenty of people voted for that change but the outcome has actually been more of the same IMO.

Keep em fat and stupid and things just keep rolling along. So it goes.

[DaytonIllini]

Originally Posted by IntenselyOrange

I'm quoting this again to make a few points on which we'd likely disagree.

1. If schooling was revamped properly, I believe we would use less money to produce better educated people.
2. I don't really care if it's the government that fixes education or if it is innovated and financed privately. The latter is much more likely.
3. We need to spend more (not less) money on those students with high aptitudes. It sounds cruel, but way too much money is spent on people who don't really have the ability to much more than janitors. Don't get me wrong. Janitors serve a necessary function and it is a respectable occupation. But in order for the US to lead the world in innovation our resources should be spent on those that will do the innovating.

It doesn't soiund cruel. Most people are pretty dumb and what is more, they ENJOY being dumb. You see people write sentences that are utterly incoherent. If asked about them, they go ape-crazy instead of rewriting it into something more intelligible. God only knows that I make plenty of mistakes but I really like finding them.

Originally Posted by IntenselyOrange

You realize that with this post and your similar anti-liberalism post you've hit on most of the issues that people vote on.

And that is because most people are dumb.

Originally Posted by illinirazorback

I read his post much more simply than that. I think he meant that we could spend trillions on education and I would still be stupid.

Again, most people are dumb. :laugh:

Originally Posted by pizzaman

I don't know how old you are. I'm 62. Your statement, quoted above, could have come from me 40 years ago. Now I don't believe people have the fortitude to ever say enough is enough. I'm not talking about violence but requiring honesty and intelligent solutions from elected officials rather than slogans.

Obama tapped into discontent with "change you can believe in." So plenty of people voted for that change but the outcome has actually been more of the same IMO.

Keep em fat and stupid and things just keep rolling along. So it goes.

Apparently it has been that way for a long time.

[Sure Shot]

Originally Posted by IntenselyOrange

It sounds cruel, but way too much money is spent on people who don't really have the ability to much more than janitors.

We've gotta stop thinking that way.

Yes, we have a need for janitors, yes, someone is going to have to fill those jobs. But just by the way you are saying that, you are writing off 50% of our children to janitorial labor as opposed to the 2% or whatever that are actually needed. And besides, intelligent, creative janitors can help us improve just as intelligent, creative engineers can. Plus, even janitors need to be the educated, civic-minded citizens we want to make up this republic.

If we were going to do a quick once-over of the education system to try and produce innovation more efficiently, you're probably right, identifying and incubating the top talent (in much the same way they do for sports) would probably be a good idea. We need more than a once-over though. Much more. We're trying to become the go-to world market for knowledge workers and skilled labor. We're trying to create broad prosperity again.

[KBLEE]

Originally Posted by Sure Shot

We've gotta stop thinking that way.

Yes, we have a need for janitors, yes, someone is going to have to fill those jobs. But just by the way you are saying that, you are writing off 50% of our children to janitorial labor as opposed to the 2% or whatever that are actually needed. And besides, intelligent, creative janitors can help us improve just as intelligent, creative engineers can. Plus, even janitors need to be the educated, civic-minded citizens we want to make up this republic.

I think "janitor" is just a vague generalization for those jobs that require unskilled labor. There are a multitude of these. Think it takes much skill to be a cable / satellite TV installer? Truck driver? What needs to happen more is directing certain non-college level individuals into training for trades (heating / air conditioning, auto repair, computer repair, etc).

[pizzaman]

Originally Posted by KBLEE

I think "janitor" is just a vague generalization for those jobs that require unskilled labor. There are a multitude of these. Think it takes much skill to be a cable / satellite TV installer? Truck driver? What needs to happen more is directing certain non-college level individuals into training for trades (heating / air conditioning, auto repair, computer repair, etc).

Don't knock the knowledge it takes to be a good tradesman. I've been around enough good people in the building industry that are brighter, better organized and more creative than people in positions requiring a college degree. There's no doubt about their intelligence and ability to apply their knowledge into useful skills.

On the other end are bull work laborers who live off brawn and being able to follow instructions but that's it.

[IntenselyOrange]

Originally Posted by KBLEE

I think "janitor" is just a vague generalization for those jobs that require unskilled labor. There are a multitude of these. Think it takes much skill to be a cable / satellite TV installer? Truck driver? What needs to happen more is directing certain non-college level individuals into training for trades (heating / air conditioning, auto repair, computer repair, etc).

Apparently the point of my post was clear.

[IntenselyOrange]

Originally Posted by Sure Shot

We've gotta stop thinking that way.

Yes, we have a need for janitors, yes, someone is going to have to fill those jobs. But just by the way you are saying that, you are writing off 50% of our children to janitorial labor as opposed to the 2% or whatever that are actually needed. And besides, intelligent, creative janitors can help us improve just as intelligent, creative engineers can. Plus, even janitors need to be the educated, civic-minded citizens we want to make up this republic.

If we were going to do a quick once-over of the education system to try and produce innovation more efficiently, you're probably right, identifying and incubating the top talent (in much the same way they do for sports) would probably be a good idea. We need more than a once-over though. Much more. We're trying to become the go-to world market for knowledge workers and skilled labor. We're trying to create broad prosperity again.

Helpful if they can think, I suppose. But the person who will do the innovating is the owner of the janitorial service.

And I am not advocating a once-over. I want a full overhaul. I'd knock then entire house down and re-build from the bottom up. But I'd build it in a way to maximize my dollars. This would likely include a program to push kids toward trades while still in high school. It is not the only measure I'd take.