Politics

[illinibob]

Originally Posted by KBLEE

I said nothing of the sort. However, if you believe the second half of your post, then you are still missing the point.

My mistake, you're right, it was another poster who was misled into believing that Ryan is a deficit cutter.

What point am I missing, though?

[illinibob]

Originally Posted by IntenselyOrange

But you're still forced to pay into SS, right? Even if you get back everything you've put in, you've lost money due to inflation. Unless the government is going to guarantee that you'll get back your money adjusted for inflation, they should allow you to opt out and take all the risk on yourself. Really, even if you get back $1 for $1, the government has essentially stolen your savings under the disguise of providing you security.

Social security is like insurance, not an investment, it's a risk pool the idea of which is to provide a minimum safety net for the elderly as a group, not to ensure that every last individual gets a certain return. If you pay into SS your whole life and die a day after you retire you get a bad return, but if your spouse lives to be 100 she does really well. It all evens out for the sake of the general welfare, which is a totally distasteful concept and why many here have no use for it. It's funny that many of same people who claim with a straight face that the country has moved left in the last 25 years - I think they're actually serious - at the same time have taken the political debate over SS back to the 1930's.

[AHSIllini32]

Originally Posted by KBLEE

Either you're too lazy to look it up, or you already did and it didn't fit your argument. In any event, this is a total non-issue. Here's the article straight from the Huffington Post (can't get much more of a liberal slant).



Ooooh...scathing, isn't it? And the worst of the benign comments were from someone who doesn't even work for Fox News.

Neither actually. I think it's ridiculous to ask for a link when someone else came out and flat out said they saw it too. It's just someone who's looking for a way to deny that it happened.

And the point is, if someone from the Democratic side of the news said something like all hell would break lose in this thread. But when it's from the other side it's viewed as harmless.

Hell look at how everyone friggin flipped their sh*t when the Romney campaign took a speech from Obama, did some cute editing, and completely around what he was saying. Yet when people bring up the fact that Romney is failing to release his tax records for some odd reason (probably he either 1. wasn't paying then or 2. was cheating the system, both of which would take him completely out of the running to ever be President) people find a way to defend that.

[illinibob]

Originally Posted by AHSIllini32

Neither actually. I think it's ridiculous to ask for a link when someone else came out and flat out said they saw it too. It's just someone who's looking for a way to deny that it happened.

And the point is, if someone from the Democratic side of the news said something like all hell would break lose in this thread. But when it's from the other side it's viewed as harmless.

Hell look at how everyone friggin flipped their sh*t when the Romney campaign took a speech from Obama, did some cute editing, and completely around what he was saying. Yet when people bring up the fact that Romney is failing to release his tax records for some odd reason (probably he either 1. wasn't paying then or 2. was cheating the system, both of which would take him completely out of the running to ever be President) people find a way to defend that.

One wishes that something like that, if shown, would disqualify someone for President, but I doubt it.

When the tax records are released (inevitable) if they in fact show he paid no taxes at all in some year (unlikely) or, more likely, that he paid scandoulously low effective rates far lower than any of his many domestic servants by using legal but distasteful dodges such as off-shore investments, you know what will happen: the entire Fox/talk radio monolith will begin bleating 24/7 that 1) it's not true; 2) if it is true so what, tax avoidance is savvy and therefore patriotic; 3) Kerry/Clinton/Obama did something worse; 4) CLASS WARFARE/JOB CREATORS, or; 5) look over there, a gay immigrant! And within a few days you will hear those defenses rotely parroted by decent people on this board who work hard, play by the rules and pay their taxes at the rates normal working people pay. Mark my words.

[ryls]

Originally Posted by illinibob

Of course it is - but you said St. Ryan had a brilliant plan to reduce the deficit and he doesn't, its a con. He wants to reduce payments to people who dont vote for him and reduce the taxes of those who do - those are the only things Repubs care about - even though that will make the deficit worse. If one supports that, fine, I don't, but if it's such a great plan why not sell it honestly?

Even simpson Bowles says you have to fix entitlements, every politician knows this, they just don't have the guts to say it and fix it. I hate democrats always saying we want to balance the budget on the backs of poor people, that isn't the case, It may be that rich people have to take less in social security and you have to fix these entitlements, it's where all the money is. What is your plan? Why did u just ignore the point about reducing tax rates actually brings in more money to the treasury, rich people just hold onto assets if you are going to pay high capital gains.

[wpr]

Originally Posted by illinibob

One wishes that something like that, if shown, would disqualify someone for President, but I doubt it.

When the tax records are released (inevitable) if they in fact show he paid no taxes at all in some year (unlikely) or, more likely, that he paid scandoulously low effective rates far lower than any of his many domestic servants by using legal but distasteful dodges such as off-shore investments, you know what will happen: the entire Fox/talk radio monolith will begin bleating 24/7 that 1) it's not true; 2) if it is true so what, tax avoidance is savvy and therefore patriotic; 3) Kerry/Clinton/Obama did something worse; 4) CLASS WARFARE/JOB CREATORS, or; 5) look over there, a gay immigrant! And within a few days you will hear those defenses rotely parroted by decent people on this board who work hard, play by the rules and pay their taxes at the rates normal working people pay. Mark my words.

I am so glad to hear that you and everyone else who cries about the taxes that Romney or anyone else pays is unfair. after all that must mean you take no deductions whatsoever on your tax return.

if the tax code allows for a deduction and someone uses the deduction, exemption they are not evil. they are doing exactly what is legally allowed.

unless you pay taxes based on your gross income you have nothing to complain about because someone does a better job of using the tax code than you.


no one is stopping yo from seet

[uiba99]

I honestly believe that Mitt Romney won't release those returns for the same reasons that others have alluded to - he's likely paid a much lower rate than the rest of us because he's managed to find every loophole he can. If it's anything more than that, well...he's screwed.

Most of us do the exact same thing, on a smaller scale. But no one wants to admit that the rich have a greater ability to do it.

Problem is, you can carp about a flat tax or the rich paying their fair share all you want, but at some point eliminating all those deductions starts to affect people who make far less than Romney.

I think he's going to have to cave at some point and release them.

[illinibob]

Originally Posted by wpr

I am so glad to hear that you and everyone else who cries about the taxes that Romney or anyone else pays is unfair. after all that must mean you take no deductions whatsoever on your tax return.

if the tax code allows for a deduction and someone uses the deduction, exemption they are not evil. they are doing exactly what is legally allowed.

unless you pay taxes based on your gross income you have nothing to complain about because someone does a better job of using the tax code than you.


no one is stopping yo from seet

So you're going with number 2.

[wpr]

Originally Posted by illinibob

So you're going with number 2.

maybe it is late. maybe all I can see is my typo but I have no idea what you are saying.
Like ubia says in her post most people take advantage of every tax deduction that is available to them. Believe it or not so does Clooney etal. I bet he has a corporation set up that he/they funnel his/their income through. why not?

A boring story- When I was in college I wanted to get rid off every single tax deduction all together. Back then the deficient was so "low" they were talking about a 10% flat tax on everyone for all their income. Some plans suggested exempting the first $8-10,000 for the low income people.

Seemed like a good idea to me. My brother in law was not a tax attorney at the time so I didn't care if CPA's didn't have jobs. Well I cared a little.

Then my prof pointed out the problem with not being able to wrote off the interest on your home. Other than pride of ownership there really wasn't much of a difference in owning a home or renting one. Sure their was the capital gain when someone sold their house but if you didn't own it for 20 years or more you didn't make that much and you could get a similar return by investing wisely.

If there is no advantage to buying a home then that impacts the real estate market. there would be a long term depression in the market price which effects not only realtors but banks, (S&Ls back then) title companies, lawyers too. And the every single local government entity that taxes based on real estate values.

So he suggested perhaps we leave in 1 deduction on the flat tax for our homes. What is to stop every other special interest group from raising a cry that their deduction/exemption is just as value to stimulating the economy?

We certainly need to clean up the tax code mess and close loopholes. It is not an easy fix. But then we need to clean up so many of our programs. Healthcare is a real problem. Food stamps, welfare and just about every single program needs an overhaul. Whether or not Romney paid his taxes is not the real issue. Here is a thought- how many feel the IRS can be a real SOB when it comes to dealing with people? They have hammer so many famous people for not paying taxes. If Romney didn't pay or pay the proper amount don't you think they would have gone after think? LONG before he ran for office? They sure would have. His return and every one who makes over a few million a year is looked at by a team of auditors not just the computer.

[IntenselyOrange]

Originally Posted by AHSIllini32

Neither actually. I think it's ridiculous to ask for a link when someone else came out and flat out said they saw it too. It's just someone who's looking for a way to deny that it happened.

And the point is, if someone from the Democratic side of the news said something like all hell would break lose in this thread. But when it's from the other side it's viewed as harmless.

Hell look at how everyone friggin flipped their sh*t when the Romney campaign took a speech from Obama, did some cute editing, and completely around what he was saying. Yet when people bring up the fact that Romney is failing to release his tax records for some odd reason (probably he either 1. wasn't paying then or 2. was cheating the system, both of which would take him completely out of the running to ever be President) people find a way to defend that.

Kind of like the Senate majority leader making unsubstantiated claims is harmless as is being touted by the left? Both sides are guilty of exactly the comment you make. Both sides. You, like Sure Shot and true righties seem to see things as a good vs. bad debate. In reality it's bad vs. bad. Until everyone wakes up and forces a better solution rather than taking sides we are in this mess.

Currently, politicians are able to distract people like yourself from the reality that they are power hungry celebrities by making government a sporting event. They've done this so successfully that probably 80 - 90% of voters vote either "D" or "R" without any true knowledge of the candidates. It's very sad and will not be fixed until we make both sides grow up.

[IntenselyOrange]

Originally Posted by uiba99

I honestly believe that Mitt Romney won't release those returns for the same reasons that others have alluded to - he's likely paid a much lower rate than the rest of us because he's managed to find every loophole he can. If it's anything more than that, well...he's screwed.

Most of us do the exact same thing, on a smaller scale. But no one wants to admit that the rich have a greater ability to do it.

Problem is, you can carp about a flat tax or the rich paying their fair share all you want, but at some point eliminating all those deductions starts to affect people who make far less than Romney.

I think he's going to have to cave at some point and release them.

You get it. Most don't.

[Sure Shot]

Originally Posted by IntenselyOrange

Kind of like the Senate majority leader making unsubstantiated claims is harmless as is being touted by the left? Both sides are guilty of exactly the comment you make. Both sides. You, like Sure Shot and true righties seem to see things as a good vs. bad debate. In reality it's bad vs. bad. Until everyone wakes up and forces a better solution rather than taking sides we are in this mess.

Currently, politicians are able to distract people like yourself from the reality that they are power hungry celebrities by making government a sporting event. They've done this so successfully that probably 80 - 90% of voters vote either "D" or "R" without any true knowledge of the candidates. It's very sad and will not be fixed until we make both sides grow up.

Whoa whoa whoa. Don't lump me in with the true believers. No one has decried the tone and lack of substance in politics here more than me.

But, I still must say, just saying "bad vs. bad" obfuscated the issues and gives people excuses not to delve deeper into the issues. For me, REGARDLESS of policy, no one who cares about good faith governance could possibly vote for a national GOP candidate. At least not in 2012.

[pizzaman]

Originally Posted by uiba99

I honestly believe that Mitt Romney won't release those returns for the same reasons that others have alluded to - he's likely paid a much lower rate than the rest of us because he's managed to find every loophole he can.
Most of us do the exact same thing, on a smaller scale. But no one wants to admit that the rich have a greater ability to do it.

Who created those loopholes that Romney and other members of the wealthy elite use to hold on to their riches? The powerful and wealthy of course. Fairness isn't in their vocabulary. (Well, all I've got to do is become powerful and wealthy like them and I can use loopholes too!)

[Sure Shot]

Originally Posted by uiba99

I honestly believe that Mitt Romney won't release those returns for the same reasons that others have alluded to - he's likely paid a much lower rate than the rest of us because he's managed to find every loophole he can. If it's anything more than that, well...he's screwed.

Most of us do the exact same thing, on a smaller scale. But no one wants to admit that the rich have a greater ability to do it.

Problem is, you can carp about a flat tax or the rich paying their fair share all you want, but at some point eliminating all those deductions starts to affect people who make far less than Romney.

I think he's going to have to cave at some point and release them.

Right after posting about how we need substance in politics, allow me to rumormonger:

Romney hasn't been paying his proper tithes to the Mormon Church. That's a way more plausible explanation than massive tax fraud or something. And that's not something that would hurt him politically, but it's personally embarrassing.

[KBLEE]

Originally Posted by Sure Shot

For me, REGARDLESS of policy, no one who cares about good faith governance could possibly vote for a national GOP candidate. At least not in 2012.

[KBLEE]

Originally Posted by pizzaman

Who created those loopholes that Romney and other members of the wealthy elite use to hold on to their riches? The powerful and wealthy of course. Fairness isn't in their vocabulary. (Well, all I've got to do is become powerful and wealthy like them and I can use loopholes too!)

So - ignoring the fact that he paid more in taxes last year than many people make in their entire lifetime, he's simply a wealthy scum bucket who's exploiting the system and sticking it to the little guy. Got it...

[AHSIllini32]

Originally Posted by KBLEE

So - ignoring the fact that he paid more in taxes last year than many people make in their entire lifetime, he's simply a wealthy scum bucket who's exploiting the system and sticking it to the little guy. Got it...

If last year was the year(s) in question then sure you'd have a point. But you don't because the fact remains there are multiple years where something fishy was going on otherwise he'd have no problem releasing his tax records. Surely you are intelligent enough to understand that.

[IntenselyOrange]

Originally Posted by Sure Shot

Whoa whoa whoa. Don't lump me in with the true believers. No one has decried the tone and lack of substance in politics here more than me.

But, I still must say, just saying "bad vs. bad" obfuscated the issues and gives people excuses not to delve deeper into the issues. For me, REGARDLESS of policy, no one who cares about good faith governance could possibly vote for a national GOP candidate. At least not in 2012.

But you just don't get it. You feel that way because you believe in the liberal ideology. The dems are as repulsive (I'd say moreso, but I lean slightly right) as the GOP.

[IntenselyOrange]

Originally Posted by AHSIllini32

If last year was the year(s) in question then sure you'd have a point. But you don't because the fact remains there are multiple years where something fishy was going on otherwise he'd have no problem releasing his tax records. Surely you are intelligent enough to understand that.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Good grief. This nonsense is the left's answer to Obama's birth certificate fiasco. Can we please focus on issues rather than the distractions that the two money/power hungry parties are feeding us?

This is what I'm talking about Sure Shot. Because the parties are so easily able to distract us with this good vs. evil nonsense we can't actually delve more deeply into real policy decisions.

[AHSIllini32]

Originally Posted by IntenselyOrange

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Good grief. This nonsense is the left's answer to Obama's birth certificate fiasco. Can we please focus on issues rather than the distractions that the two money/power hungry parties are feeding us?

This is what I'm talking about Sure Shot. Because the parties are so easily able to distract us with this good vs. evil nonsense we can't actually delve more deeply into real policy decisions.

If the mother f*cker wasn't paying taxes that's a HUGE issue!!

Ok how about this one then, what about when Romney passed a health care bill as governor that is exactly like the Obamacare plan that you are all !!!!!ing about? Is that pertinent enough for you? Or does it not count since, even though it's relevant to this election it happened long enough ago that we should ignore it?:laugh:

[IntenselyOrange]

Originally Posted by AHSIllini32

If the mother f*cker wasn't paying taxes that's a HUGE issue!!

Ok how about this one then, what about when Romney passed a health care bill as governor that is exactly like the Obamacare plan that you are all !!!!!ing about? Is that pertinent enough for you? Or does it not count since, even though it's relevant to this election it happened long enough ago that we should ignore it?:laugh:

Hmmmm. Romney's health care plan was for a state right? And the issue of Libertarians like myself is that Health Care is a state issue, right?

Personally I don't like Romney. I won't be voting for him. I think he's only marginally better than Obama.

But you need to look at things past the surface. And that connection is just barely below the surface.

[IntenselyOrange]

Originally Posted by AHSIllini32

If the mother f*cker wasn't paying taxes that's a HUGE issue!!

So you actually believe he wasn't paying taxes:laugh::laugh:. Oh my goodness.

See Sure Shot....people are listening to Reid.

[wpr]

Originally Posted by AHSIllini32

If last year was the year(s) in question then sure you'd have a point. But you don't because the fact remains there are multiple years where something fishy was going on otherwise he'd have no problem releasing his tax records. Surely you are intelligent enough to understand that.

It sounds like you have already convicted and sentenced him without due process. Where is the presumption of innocence UNTIL proven guilty that this nation was founded upon? "It only applies to the people that I support"? :rolleyes:

[illinibob]

Originally Posted by illinibob

So you're going with number 2.

And right on cue, here comes Rushbo with no. 3.

http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogs...ease-your.html

[illinibob]

Originally Posted by KBLEE

So - ignoring the fact that he paid more in taxes last year than many people make in their entire lifetime, he's simply a wealthy scum bucket who's exploiting the system and sticking it to the little guy. Got it...

And no. 4.