Gun Control

[KBLEE]

We don't seem to have a specific "gun control" thread, so I thought this would be the best place to put this. Quite interesting:



More than twice as many deaths due to unintentional falls. Maybe we need to ban gravity...

[DaytonIllini]

Originally Posted by AHSIllini32

Really? You're going to say that the reason we all need guys is because the founding fathers fought a war to gain their independence? Really?

And you're going to compare the U.S. having strict gun laws to:
1) A Turkish country that was in a war during the 2 years you listed (convenient you left that out)

2) Communist Russia?

3) Nazi Germany (Really?!)

4) Communist China led by Mao Zedong?

5) 3rd world Guatemala killing a bunch of people during a revolt of their government?

6 and 7) Two African 3rd world countries that have been killing each other for years and in which gun laws will never have any effect.

Not on of these arguments is valid or in any way indicative of what would happen in American with stricter gun laws.

Plus, you're just throwing out a bunch of numbers with no time-frame attached or any mention of the state of the country before or after. These are just wild, random comparisons you're making in an effort to say more people need guns.

How do you know?

Germany was one of the most civilized countries in the world in the 20's and early 30's. They were a center for learning. They had significant economic problems but they were not some 3rd world country. When the Nazi's rose to power people had every opportunity to get out but there were always people like you standing around saying 'it couldn't happen here."

You'll forgive me if I disagree.

The real point though is that there isn't a snowball's chance in Hell of gun control laws passing the Democratic controlled Senate much less the Republican controlled House. How long would Manchin in West Va or Missouri or Montana's Democratic senators last? Even a True Blue state like Connecticut has pretty open laws.

We are moving away, not towards strict gun control and that is a good thing.

That doesn't mean that we couldn't tighten up gun laws with regards to private sales and gun shows. Or that we couldn't hold people responsible for crimes committed with improperly maintained weapons. Or that we couldn't tax bullets at $1 a pop or something similar to offset some of the societal costs of gun ownership.

[Joel Goodson]

Originally Posted by DaytonIllini

How do you know?

Germany was one of the most civilized countries in the world in the 20's and early 30's. They were a center for learning. They had significant economic problems but they were not some 3rd world country. When the Nazi's rose to power people had every opportunity to get out but there were always people like you standing around saying 'it couldn't happen here."

You'll forgive me if I disagree.

The real point though is that there isn't a snowball's chance in Hell of gun control laws passing the Democratic controlled Senate much less the Republican controlled House. How long would Manchin in West Va or Missouri or Montana's Democratic senators last? Even a True Blue state like Connecticut has pretty open laws.

We are moving away, not towards strict gun control and that is a good thing.

That doesn't mean that we couldn't tighten up gun laws with regards to private sales and gun shows. Or that we couldn't hold people responsible for crimes committed with improperly maintained weapons. Or that we couldn't tax bullets at $1 a pop or something similar to offset some of the societal costs of gun ownership.

No idea how the gun control aspect of this tragedy is going to unfold, but Manchin has changed his position: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...o-act-on-guns/

[DaytonIllini]

Originally Posted by Joel Goodson

No idea how the gun control aspect of this tragedy is going to unfold, but Manchin has changed his position: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...o-act-on-guns/

Interesting. I think the assault weapons ban could someday be reinstated. I wouldn't hold my breath but it is possible. I think Manchin will have a tough time with reelection if he votes against guns. He may have done the political calculus or he may have just popped off when emotions are high. We'll see.

[zoggle101]

A friend suggested that maybe the NRA get members to volunteer throughout the month to guard our schools. It would shed some positive light on that association and I thought it sounded like a great idea.

[Zmat]

interesting idea zoggle. if i remember right one country does just that. but then its a very small country and has syria to the north. egypt to the west. irag to the east. then add in palastine. right in the back door step.

[zoggle101]

One of the worst regions filled with conflict zmat. There is little to no hope that in the next 100 years that will ever change. Isn't Egypt starting problems again in the west bank?

Sorry - off topic

[Zmat]

all states have conceal and carry laws. except ILL. downstate wants it. upstate says noway. but most gun laws are not even inforced well up state. had a brother that lived upstate for a few years. worked as a teller in a small store. got robbed at gunpoint. the cops asked him why wasn't he armed. go figure that one out. he worked on the edge of the south side. he left a few days after he got caught between to gangs having a gun battle in the streets. luckly he didnt get killed or even hurt. he was on his way home from work when that happened.

point being. what are the current gun laws doing to protect the citizens. absolutly nothing. gangs have guns. and no law will take the guns from the gangs and anyone that wants one. look at our drug laws and see how efective that is. look back to the twentys. outlawing alcohol. worked great. ( NOT)

[Zmat]

stricter gun laws will bring one thing. will turn law abiding citizens into felons. for meny wont abide giving up their rights. and it wont make it safer for anyone. including the kids in schools. and yes i agree we have to protect those kids. if that means armed securty gaurds so be it.

[sdfidaho]

Originally Posted by zoggle101

A friend suggested that maybe the NRA get members to volunteer throughout the month to guard our schools. It would shed some positive light on that association and I thought it sounded like a great idea.

I like it.

[DaytonIllini]

Originally Posted by sdfidaho

That's your right to believe that. History proves to me countless times you're incorrect . I don't have, nor want a bunker. I will stand, not hide, for my liberty thank you.

+1 And I won't stand silently.

If our grandparents were told that we'd live in an America where the government can listen to our phone calls, read our emails, fly spy drones over our houses without warrants, track our movements with black boxes in cars, imprison us indefinitely without trial or access to legal counsel and EVEN have the executive try us in secret (without legislative or judicial oversight) in absentia and issue execution orders against us, they'd puke.

They'd wonder what kind of people we were to allow those rights that they fought for to be taken from us without a whimper.

[-josh-]

Who's going to pay the owners of these guns? My best friend has bought and with all the upgrades to his AR15 spent around $3000 on his rifle. Most people spend that if not more, they're just going to take their guns and say "sorry about your poor investment choice"? I'm not even being political right now, I truly want to know if rifle owners will just be SOL,

[gibb52]

Originally Posted by -josh-

Who's going to pay the owners of these guns? My best friend has bought and with all the upgrades to his AR15 spent around $3000 on his rifle. Most people spend that if not more, they're just going to take their guns and say "sorry about your poor investment choice"? I'm not even being political right now, I truly want to know if rifle owners will just be SOL,

I'd bet anything we will never have to find out. Door to door confiscation of guns just is not going to happen.

Simple common sense goes a long way, sadly most of the country has forgotten to use it. If you read the background stories of these mass shootings many times you see that there were plenty of warning signs that these individuals had issues. Parents, school officials, etc need to step in when these people need help.

And for God's sake either lock your guns away and hide the key, or better yet give the damn things to the police if you have a family member with emotional/mental/drug/anger mgmt issues.

[zoggle101]

Guns aren't going anywhere unless there is a complete enlightening for all of mankind. I also agree with Dayton that civilians having guns help with checks and balances even though the military has better weapons. I have never been scared living in my city, state, or country but a few days before this election when I was hearing extreme views from military along with govt had me a little nervous about my safety ever. I'm over it and shouldn't of let radicals get to me.

I just want to point out that I'm not anti anything even if my views might lead you to believe that. Color, religion, social status, political beliefs or lol, sports affiliation have no bearing to me on if I will like a person. Nowadays it's if I can judge you from being good or evil.

Dayton off topic but why is milk going be 6 bucks a gallon? I've heard manufacturers pour out milk to keep supply limited so prices don't go down because of a surplus of the product.

[Zmat]

i grew up with guns in the house. locked away until we were old enough to be responcible with the guns. and we had to be able to handle them with supervison long before we were allowed to use them on our own. sadly i could not do that with my kids. for one i have a son that has problems. so i opted for safety. and didn't allow him access to my guns. he is currently 30 years old and the longest job he has held about 5 months. in and out of drug rehab. the other three. doing well. so i agree gibb. family has to do the right thing. that helps alot with troubled kids.

tried to get him help. but ex wouldn't wouldnt allow or sign off on it. her thinking what will everyone think sending our child to a pro. i told her i don't care what anyone says he needs help now not latter.

[DaytonIllini]

Originally Posted by zoggle101

Dayton off topic but why is milk going be 6 bucks a gallon? I've heard manufacturers pour out milk to keep supply limited so prices don't go down because of a surplus of the product.

Did I say that? I don't recall. I think you could easily see a doubling in food prices in the next couple of years. As hundreds of millions of new consumers hit the market the demand will rise. As far as I know though, you are correct. Milk is in surplus.

[mattcoldagelli]

Originally Posted by zoggle101

.
Dayton off topic but why is milk going be 6 bucks a gallon? I've heard manufacturers pour out milk to keep supply limited so prices don't go down because of a surplus of the product.

Milk will jump in price if there's not a Farm Bill passed by the end of the year because we will revert to 1949 law governing ag policy.

[NorthwesternIllini4]

Originally Posted by Zmat

i grew up with guns in the house. locked away until we were old enough to be responcible with the guns. and we had to be able to handle them with supervison long before we were allowed to use them on our own. sadly i could not do that with my kids. for one i have a son that has problems. so i opted for safety. and didn't allow him access to my guns. he is currently 30 years old and the longest job he has held about 5 months. in and out of drug rehab. the other three. doing well. so i agree gibb. family has to do the right thing. that helps alot with troubled kids.

tried to get him help. but ex wouldn't wouldnt allow or sign off on it. her thinking what will everyone think sending our child to a pro. i told her i don't care what anyone says he needs help now not latter.

Wow. I feel for you Zmat. I truly hope you, your wife, and your son can work that out for everyone's long term well-being.

[pizzaman]

Originally Posted by Zmat

i agree we have to protect those kids. if that means armed securty gaurds so be it.

The local high school decided about 20 years ago they wanted an armed cop in the building so now there is a policeman in the building during school hours. The problem here was fighting mostly between native americans and the decendents of european immigrants. My daughter (never one to just shut up when things get a little tense) was in one fight with a NA girl. Fights are way down with the officer in the school. The school board funds the officers pay.

[AHSIllini32]

Originally Posted by DaytonIllini

+1 And I won't stand silently.

If our grandparents were told that we'd live in an America where the government can listen to our phone calls, read our emails, fly spy drones over our houses without warrants, track our movements with black boxes in cars, imprison us indefinitely without trial or access to legal counsel and EVEN have the executive try us in secret (without legislative or judicial oversight) in absentia and issue execution orders against us, they'd puke.

They'd wonder what kind of people we were to allow those rights that they fought for to be taken from us without a whimper.

If our grandparents had been told that we'd have people get into our country and fly planes into our buildings, go into movie theaters, malls, schools, etc., and randomly shoot innocent people including children aged 5-10 they'd wonder what the hell happened to the country they know.

See how this works?

[DaytonIllini]

Originally Posted by pizzaman

The local high school decided about 20 years ago they wanted an armed cop in the building so now there is a policeman in the building during school hours. The problem here was fighting mostly between native americans and the decendents of european immigrants. My daughter (never one to just shut up when things get a little tense) was in one fight with a NA girl. Fights are way down with the officer in the school. The school board funds the officers pay.

We have had an officer in our school a big chunk of the day for more than a decade. I dropped my son off at the middle school this AM. Always a cop in the parking lot keeping an eye on things.

We have security guards at banks, warehouses, grocery stores, hospitals, shopping malls. It seems like a bit of common sense to protect our kids at least as well as we protect our eggs or money.

[mattcoldagelli]

Originally Posted by DaytonIllini

If our grandparents were told that we'd live in an America where the government can listen to our phone calls, read our emails, fly spy drones over our houses without warrants, track our movements with black boxes in cars, imprison us indefinitely without trial or access to legal counsel and EVEN have the executive try us in secret (without legislative or judicial oversight) in absentia and issue execution orders against us, they'd puke.

Depending on how old your grandparents are/were, they lived through the enforcement of the Espionage Act, the Palmer Raids, Prohibition, government court-packing and price-fixing schemes, the internment of the Japanese-American population, Red Scares, the most brazenly aggressive periods of the FBI and the era of the CIA attempting to overthrow half of the governments in Latin America.

I don't think they'd be clutching their pearls.

[KBLEE]

Originally Posted by AHSIllini32

If our grandparents had been told that we'd have people get into our country and fly planes into our buildings, go into movie theaters, malls, schools, etc., and randomly shoot innocent people including children aged 5-10 they'd wonder what the hell happened to the country they know.

See how this works?

Which, again, makes me want MORE guns - not less.

Speaking of malls, I'm not sure if you heard what really happened in the Oregon mall shooting a couple of weeks ago (as the mainstream media has been nearly silent). The shooter was confronted by an individual who had a concealed carry permit. Once the shooter knew he was not the only armed individual in the mall, the next shot he took was the one that took his own life. Without even firing a shot, this gun owner likely saved dozens of lives.

[Cool Hand Luke]

I really don't like the idea of armed guards in schools. Rather than one guard with a firearm, I'd much rather have three who are well-trained and carry billy clubs, mace, etc.

People have problems. Even otherwise stable, good people. Sometimes they snap. There are 125,000(!) schools in this country. Let's say we put just one armed man or woman in each school. You now have 125,000 people with guns, surrounded by children. How confident would you feel that all 125,000 are trustworthy, stable people who would never go off the deep end? Just a matter of time before one of them snaps and does something dumb. And there's the Human Factor. Mistakes happen. Just a matter of time before a student somehow gets their hands on that gun. Then we'll be asking ourselves "Should we really have armed men and women in our schools?" And that is being extremely conservative. In reality you are going to have a lot more than 1 guard per school.

I'll beat that dead horse until only dust remains, but I still believe the correct action to take is training all adults who work in schools in any capacity. Teach them how to correctly engage a threat. And anyone who wishes to work at a school in any capacity must be required to sign a "Protect At All Costs," a "Fight Don't Flee" statement where they essentially are promising that rather than hiding under their damned desk waiting for authorities to show up, they instead seek out danger. And if they fail to protect children before themselves they are fired immediately and potentially subject to penalties. If you want to work with children, you have to be 100% committed to protecting them. Otherwise you have no business being there.

I saw the nurse on 60 Minutes describing how she hid under her desk, listening to the screams. I wanted to reach through my TV and smack her. How can you hide while you are hearing children scream? Rather live a coward than die with dignity and valor? How many kids might have survived if just 3 adults who were hiding instead ran towards the danger and tried to overwhelm that maniac?

All adults in all schools must go through monthly drills to help them better respond in an event. Everyone has a role. The monthly training must emphasize how to protect the students and also engage the threat.

I realize the logistics of something like this are a nightmare. But it's preferable to the nightmare of 20 dead kids. We need to change the way we think about schools and the role a teacher, a counselor, a nurse, a janitor plays in schools. Trying to solve this problem with gun control is nonsense. It cannot work. Guns will always be available. A very large, very complicated fundamental change needs to occur within our school system and it needs to start immediately. We have to adapt to the changing times. We have to accept the fact that we are not safe. Pass all the gun laws you want. Until that sea change happens, kids will keep dying.

I am not a gun advocate. I am neither liberal nor conservative. Guns scare me. But words written on paper won't save anyone.

[mattcoldagelli]

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke

I'll beat that dead horse until only dust remains, but I still believe the correct action to take is training all adults who work in schools in any capacity. Teach them how to correctly engage a threat. And anyone who wishes to work at a school in any capacity must be required to sign a "Protect At All Costs," a "Fight Don't Flee" statement where they essentially are promising that rather than hiding under their damned desk waiting for authorities to show up, they instead seek out danger. And if they fail to protect children before themselves they are fired immediately and potentially subject to penalties. If you want to work with children, you have to be 100% committed to protecting them. Otherwise you have no business being there.

I saw the nurse on 60 Minutes describing how she hid under her desk, listening to the screams. I wanted to reach through my TV and smack her. How can you hide while you are hearing children scream? Rather live a coward than die with dignity and valor? How many kids might have survived if just 3 adults who were hiding instead ran towards the danger and tried to overwhelm that maniac?

Several adults ran towards the danger. They all ended up dead.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but schools do have regular trainings for this (at least the public schools in Illinois). The priority is already put on protecting the children at any cost and minimizing the potential for confrontation with a shooter - which I think most people would agree is as it should be.

We have first responders and police for a reason, and it is so we don't have to count on elementary school educators to act as shock commando units.