Go Back   Fighting Illini Forums > Sports > Fighting Illini Basketball

Illinois ranked #12 in AP Poll, #13 in Coaches Poll (1/7 polls)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old Jan 7, 2013, 12:14 PM   #26
WesterveltVictoryCigar
Location: People's Republic of Massachusetts
Posts: 7,552
Quote:
Originally Posted by BleedOrangeBlue View Post
If close doesn't count, why did Arizona move down a spot after "close" victories against Colorado and Utah? According to you, pollers don't take into account "close" games. If they don't, why did the Wildcats move down a spot after playing two close games?
Well, it's a stretch to say Arizona "moved down". They were only 40 votes ahead of Louisville the prior week, now they are a mere 5 votes behind them in the AP Poll. And I think the fact that there was an obvious gaffe by the officials in the CU game played into it. They didn't move down in the USAToday poll.

They still won those games, Marquette didn't. A week or so after Maui, no one looks at Marquette's record and thinks "well, one of those losses was almost a win!" No, it's just 3 losses.

Quote:
Yes, UConn is great! Beat #14 MSU early in the season, were ranked after just a week of play,
pre-season rankings are a pile of crap, so beating "#14" isn't impressive. Are we still impressed by IU's win over "#9 UNC"? Of course not.

Quote:
have a new head coach that is turning this squad around,
If they are "great" and had that impressive early win, what's he "turning around"?

Quote:
and also beat Washington on the road. They're 10-2.
OOOOOHHH! Washington! Say no more! :laugh:

Quote:
That would be Wisconsin isn't very good. And any win in the Kohl's Center should still be a resume "enhancer."
So you think "UConn and Wisconsin isn't good" is correct?

Also, Marquette played Wisconsin at home, not at Kohl.
WesterveltVictoryCigar is offline Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 12:33 PM   #27
BleedOrangeBlue
Posts: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesterveltVictoryCigar View Post
Well, it's a stretch to say Arizona "moved down".

Pre-season rankings are a pile of crap, so beating "#14" isn't impressive.

If they are "great" and had that impressive early win, what's he "turning around"?

OOOOOHHH! Washington! Say no more! :laugh:

So you think "UConn and Wisconsin isn't good" is correct?
1) No it's not; they did move down.

2) Beating #14 is impressive when that team is still ranked in the top 25.

3) He is turning around the team that was searching for a head coach after Jim Calhoun was sick, then back, then sick, then retired, then sanctions were applied to the school.

4) Hey, Washington might be a bubble team at best, but as far as I'm concerned, a win on the road against a BCS team is still a decent win.

5) You originally said "Wisconsin aren't good." I corrected you by pointing out that it's "Wisconsin isn't good."
BleedOrangeBlue is offline Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 12:37 PM   #28
RockfordIllini
Posts: 66
I am not at all concerned with where we are ranked. The name of the game is resume building, and we have done that so far. We will certainly lose are fair share of games in the BIG, but we will have opportunties for resume building wins, for the most part, on a weekly basis until the tournament starts.

The greatest thing about college baseketball is that it's not college football. Regular season rankings mean squat. The main reason I like to see us ranked is that it gives us more national exposure, and it makes team easier for me to follow (scores of T25 are almost always easier to find)
RockfordIllini is offline Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 12:42 PM   #29
BWBW
Location: Tyngsborough, MA
Posts: 673
Bumpkin Grammar?

I like us to win. By ten. We stretch the lead in the last five minutes.
BWBW is offline Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 12:48 PM   #30
WesterveltVictoryCigar
Location: People's Republic of Massachusetts
Posts: 7,552
Quote:
Originally Posted by BleedOrangeBlue View Post
1) No it's not; they did move down.
OK, they got moved down because they got screwed by the refs. Bad example.

Quote:
2) Beating #14 is impressive when that team is still ranked in the top 25.

3) He is turning around the team that was searching for a head coach after Jim Calhoun was sick, then back, then sick, then retired, then sanctions were applied to the school.

4) Hey, Washington might be a bubble team at best, but as far as I'm concerned, a win on the road against a BCS team is still a decent win.
All good stuff, but still doesn't = "great". UConn is a bubble team themselves at this point. Most rating systems have them in the 30/40 range, so it's hardly a big feather in Marquette's cap.

Quote:
5) You originally said "Wisconsin aren't good." I corrected you by pointing out that it's "Wisconsin isn't good."
What? Look, my post hasn't disappeared, it's still there. You seem to have missed the "and" part. Admittedly I may have overdone the (parenthesis) :

Quote:
Originally Posted by WesterveltVictoryCigar View Post
Well, close doesn't count (Butler). UConn ("great"? LOL) and Wisconsin aren't very good this year. And they lost to UWGB.
WesterveltVictoryCigar is offline Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 12:55 PM   #31
cjcastan
cjcastan's Avatar
Posts: 1,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartofaChampion View Post
VCU has beaten no one of merit. Not deserving of a ranking.
Wich St beat them on their own home floor and Wich St only lost to Tenn at Tenn.

They are way more deserving of a ranking especially since Marshall is doing it with bubblegum and chicken wire with all the injuries they have.

__________________
The ball is round. The game lasts forty minutes. This much is fact. Everything else is theory
cjcastan is online now Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 01:13 PM   #32
SOILL-ILLINIFAN
SOILL-ILLINIFAN's Avatar
Location: Red Bud IL
Posts: 202
I still can't figure out how the zags are ranked in front of us? I can see every team but them being ranked above us but we went to there house and beat them...just doesn't make sense to me....?

__________________
LONG LIVE THE
SOILL-ILLINIFAN is offline Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 01:17 PM   #33
lstewart53x3
lstewart53x3's Avatar
Location: Chambana
Posts: 1,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOILL-ILLINIFAN View Post
I still can't figure out how the zags are ranked in front of us? I can see every team but them being ranked above us but we went to there house and beat them...just doesn't make sense to me....?
Because the polls highly value the number of losses a team has. We have 2 losses, and they have one. A team's overall record is important, or else Purdue would be ranked ahead of us.
lstewart53x3 is online now Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 01:22 PM   #34
BleedOrangeBlue
Posts: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesterveltVictoryCigar View Post
All good stuff, but still doesn't = "great". UConn is a bubble team themselves at this point.

What? Look, my post hasn't disappeared, it's still there. You seem to have missed the "and" part. Admittedly I may have overdone the (parenthesis)
Guess I wasn't looking at their RPI, just their record (10-2) and their wins (Washington, Michigan State). You're right, they're a bubble team at this point.

Oh haha. Right again. Your darn parenthesis threw me off! :laugh:
BleedOrangeBlue is offline Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 01:26 PM   #35
HeartofaChampion
Posts: 11,076
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjcastan View Post
Wich St beat them on their own home floor and Wich St only lost to Tenn at Tenn.

They are way more deserving of a ranking especially since Marshall is doing it with bubblegum and chicken wire with all the injuries they have.
I meant VCU doesn't deserve to be ranked. VCU hasn't beaten a top 50 team all season. And nearly beating one doesn't count.
HeartofaChampion is offline Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 01:27 PM   #36
Botb9
Realist
Botb9's Avatar
Posts: 4,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOILL-ILLINIFAN View Post
I still can't figure out how the zags are ranked in front of us? I can see every team but them being ranked above us but we went to there house and beat them...just doesn't make sense to me....?
You should look at the rankings on a week-by-week basis to see the trend. Illinois was ahead of Gonzaga after they won. Illinois has lost twice since then, while Gonzaga has not. Thusly, Gonzaga rose in the polls while Illinois fell.

It's odd how the polls work. It really isn't based on who is playing the best basketball right now. It's more like, who isn't playing worse. Losses cause ranking shift far more than wins do. People were pretty surprised when Illinois leapfrogged Kansas in 2004-05 with the WF blowout. Kansas had done nothing wrong and on most days would have been the de facto #1 team. However, Illinois' beating of WF was so out-of-this-world that the voters passed on Kansas and went right to UI instead. On the contrary, tough, a loss by Illinois would have knocked them down easily to #6 or worse. One of the BTN guys said after the game yesterday that Illinois looked like the best team in the country against tOSU. But people don't actually vote that way. Teams that win are expected to stay where they are. Teams that lose are expected to fall. Generally, the only reason you go up in rankings is because teams that were ahead of you fell due to a loss.

I think voters do this because it's easier -- they don't have to analyze every team in the country to see who is really playing the best right now. Would be hellacious to have to do so every week. Is Illinois a better team than Gonzaga? Quite possibly, and the game in Spokane is strong evidence to support that claim, but voters don't/can't order all teams in the country based on who they think is better.

Mercifully, the selection committee doesn't look at it this way. If both Gonzaga and Illinois are positioned where they are now in March, it's quite possible Illinois is granted a higher seeding than Gonzaga based on the h2h matchup.

__________________
Hype is a self-serving beast that feeds on the hopes and dreams of fans.
Botb9 is offline Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 01:38 PM   #37
WesterveltVictoryCigar
Location: People's Republic of Massachusetts
Posts: 7,552
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartofaChampion View Post
I meant VCU doesn't deserve to be ranked. VCU hasn't beaten a top 50 team all season. And nearly beating one doesn't count.
I don't know if they "deserve it", but I'd have no problem with people who think they are one of the best 25 teams.
WesterveltVictoryCigar is offline Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 01:39 PM   #38
IlliniSpine
Banned
Location: Seattle Area, WA
Posts: 2,520
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockfordIllini View Post
I am not at all concerned with where we are ranked. The name of the game is resume building, and we have done that so far. We will certainly lose are fair share of games in the BIG, but we will have opportunties for resume building wins, for the most part, on a weekly basis until the tournament starts.

The greatest thing about college baseketball is that it's not college football. Regular season rankings mean squat. The main reason I like to see us ranked is that it gives us more national exposure, and it makes team easier for me to follow (scores of T25 are almost always easier to find)
This. I just hope we continue to play well and beat MINN.

We need to re-establish AH as the house of pain. BS was 22-0 at the hall for a stretch and I believe we can get close to that although the BT is much more stacked these days.

For those at the game, hope that they can be the 6th man and cause havok!
IlliniSpine is offline Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 01:47 PM   #39
Dan
Admin
Dan's Avatar
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 29,225
Gary Parrish goes on the attack!
Quote:
Poll Attacks: You have Illinois ranked behind who and who and who?

There are good teams (even ranked teams) that still have zero wins over currently ranked opponents, which is why Illinois' victories over No. 9 Gonzaga, No. 14 Butler and No. 15 Ohio State are notable. John Groce has been incredible in his first season with the Illini. He's got a pretty strong 14-2 record.

But don't try telling that to Randy Rosetta.

Because Randy isn't buying it!

The writer from the New Orleans Times-Picayune -- a paper that was featured on Sunday's "60 Minutes," by the way -- has Illinois ranked 20th on his ballot. He's actually got the Illini ranked eight spots behind the Ohio State team they beat by 19 points, seven spots behind the Butler team they beat by 17 points and two spots behind the Gonzaga team they beat by 11 points at Gonzaga. Seriously, how could anybody conclude a team that's 14-2 with convincing wins over Gonzaga, Butler and Ohio State should be ranked behind Gonzaga, Butler and Ohio State? Or how a team that's 14-2 with convincing wins over Gonzaga, Butler and Ohio State should be ranked six spots behind Cincinnati?

Gary Parrish
Dan is offline Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 01:50 PM   #40
FeelYourPaign
FeelYourPaign's Avatar
Location: Barrington, IL
Posts: 4,322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Botb9 View Post
You should look at the rankings on a week-by-week basis to see the trend. Illinois was ahead of Gonzaga after they won. Illinois has lost twice since then, while Gonzaga has not. Thusly, Gonzaga rose in the polls while Illinois fell.

It's odd how the polls work. It really isn't based on who is playing the best basketball right now. It's more like, who isn't playing worse. Losses cause ranking shift far more than wins do. People were pretty surprised when Illinois leapfrogged Kansas in 2004-05 with the WF blowout. Kansas had done nothing wrong and on most days would have been the de facto #1 team. However, Illinois' beating of WF was so out-of-this-world that the voters passed on Kansas and went right to UI instead. On the contrary, tough, a loss by Illinois would have knocked them down easily to #6 or worse. One of the BTN guys said after the game yesterday that Illinois looked like the best team in the country against tOSU. But people don't actually vote that way. Teams that win are expected to stay where they are. Teams that lose are expected to fall. Generally, the only reason you go up in rankings is because teams that were ahead of you fell due to a loss.

I think voters do this because it's easier -- they don't have to analyze every team in the country to see who is really playing the best right now. Would be hellacious to have to do so every week. Is Illinois a better team than Gonzaga? Quite possibly, and the game in Spokane is strong evidence to support that claim, but voters don't/can't order all teams in the country based on who they think is better.

Mercifully, the selection committee doesn't look at it this way. If both Gonzaga and Illinois are positioned where they are now in March, it's quite possible Illinois is granted a higher seeding than Gonzaga based on the h2h matchup.
This seems like a really good explanation to me. I generally "get" the polls and I'm not terribly wrapped up in them, so they don't drive me batty. I just want to know which group of 5 we are in (1-5, 6-10, etc). However, your description of how teams move week to week makes a great deal of sense, especially with respect to how much easier it is for a pollster to alter last week's voting to reflect this week's status.

All of which is why I prefer the more statistically based systems like Sagarin and Pomeroy. I've seen us move down with a win in those and that makes sense to me. There are some wins that are such a disappointment that you should move down. Auburn and Garner-Webb felt like that.

Anyway, thanks for a more complete answer than most, especially since I agree with it
FeelYourPaign is offline Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 01:53 PM   #41
mattcoldagelli
mattcoldagelli's Avatar
Location: Evanston, IL
Posts: 2,402
Good stuff from Parrish. Polls are so dumb.

__________________
Twitter Blog

mattcoldagelli is offline Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 01:57 PM   #42
Botb9
Realist
Botb9's Avatar
Posts: 4,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan View Post
Gary Parrish goes on the attack!
I had a hearty laugh while reading this article.

__________________
Hype is a self-serving beast that feeds on the hopes and dreams of fans.
Botb9 is offline Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 01:59 PM   #43
Botb9
Realist
Botb9's Avatar
Posts: 4,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by IlliniSpine View Post
This. I just hope we continue to play well and beat MINN.

We need to re-establish AH as the house of pain. BS was 22-0 at the hall for a stretch and I believe we can get close to that although the BT is much more stacked these days.

For those at the game, hope that they can be the 6th man and cause havok!
Agreed. It used to be "which games were we going to lose on the road?" because there was no chance anyone was coming to town with hopes of beating UI. That's how you get back to relevancy and elite status.

__________________
Hype is a self-serving beast that feeds on the hopes and dreams of fans.
Botb9 is offline Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 02:11 PM   #44
AK Illini
UofI Basketball..off the chain
Location: Chicago
Posts: 7,461
Parrish is right about one thing, we are certainly compiling a nice little collection of quality wins.
AK Illini is offline Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 02:44 PM   #45
BrooksTaylorFan
Banned
Location: Illinois
Posts: 5,561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Botb9 View Post
I had a hearty laugh while reading this article.
+1. Some of these reporters should lose their vote. I bet that guy hasn't even watched an Illini game.
BrooksTaylorFan is offline Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 03:09 PM   #46
Juice
Juice's Avatar
Posts: 2,121
Minnesota at 8? Come on now. I hope we stomp them in to the ground Wednesday.
Juice is offline Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 03:12 PM   #47
PeoriaSteve
Posts: 3,043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Botb9 View Post
Sort of funny to think last week was more or less a wash. In reality, we know the OSU game probably outweighs the Purdue game.
I don't think it is a wash, it's actually a plus for us. Wins over top 10 teams > road losses to unrated teams from the B1G.

Last edited by PeoriaSteve; Jan 7, 2013 at 03:21 PM.
PeoriaSteve is offline Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 03:24 PM   #48
PeoriaSteve
Posts: 3,043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan View Post
Gary Parrish goes on the attack!
Great article. I gave Parrish a hit just because he was so right. Well written all around.
PeoriaSteve is offline Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 03:40 PM   #49
Ransom Stoddard
Ordained Dudeist Priest
Location: Johns Creek, GA
Posts: 1,892
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooksTaylorFan View Post
+1. Some of these reporters should lose their vote. I bet that guy hasn't even watched an Illini game.
There's no way that he has. I'm going to make a wild guess that he hasn't even followed our scores and headlines this year--or thinks we're likely to fold like a cotton t-shirt like we did last year.
Ransom Stoddard is offline Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 03:44 PM   #50
U of I 89-05-10
Location: Iowa City, Ia.
Posts: 1,186
Hahaha, GP is spot on.
U of I 89-05-10 is offline Reply With Quote
Reply


« Previous Thread | Fighting Illini Basketball | Next Thread »
Thread Tools

Forum Jump