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Old Feb 23, 2013, 12:04 PM   #7576
Botb9
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Originally Posted by IlliniJim20 View Post
The Leonard card is not exactly the best one to play in this situation.

Recruited and played for the previous coach.

Had one good year.

Was a late lottery pick simply because he is 7' and athletic.

I am not bashing Leonard, but touting him a a case of "development" of big men at Illinois is a bit of a stretch IMHO.
I think Mike Tisdale was developed very well here. He simply lacked certain intangibles that we needed in a center.

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Old Feb 23, 2013, 12:22 PM   #7577
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Originally Posted by HeartofaChampion View Post
MyH is too slow laterally to play the 3 at UI. His dribbling skills are also too loose and unrefined, hence why he plays the 4.



This.
His foot speed must be way better than you all think it is then, but maybe no one ever sees it because the guy plays 10 minutes per game only at the 4. I agree he's not going to go out there and stay in front of point guards, but your defense can account for that.

If he was groomed to be a mismatch 3 from the start, he'd be a lot more effective from that position. That's my opinion, but his skillset is a lot more conducive to that than the four. He was never really a shooter. He gives up way to much size to teams with bigger post players (Michigan st, IU...) so he's just as liable defensively at the 4 than the 3.

He's a guy who moves really well without the ball, usually finishes well around the rim, is a good offensive rebounder, and generally plays like a beast when you get him the ball within 15 feet given a favorable matchup. But then he can still bring it out and shoot it too, but that's not his primary game. Yet that's what both coaches here have seemingly put on his plate. For example, dont post him up against a 6'9 guy, bring him to the perimeter to get the ball and quit running plays for him to get threes when that is who is guarding him. If you're going to play an undersized kid at the 4, at least utilize it when you get a chance. The Purdue home game showed you some of his skillset. He drove the ball on a bigger guy and made that beautiful pass to McLaurin. He made a spin move at the top of the key and finished with a layup. He knows how to score when he gets the ball in the right spots.

I just feel like he's been totally misutilized at Illinois given what I saw of him in high school. He could have been a matchup nightmare at the 3 if he got more experience and played there from the beginning. The problem here is people are thinking about this in terms of having 3 guards out there all the time in college basketball. That doesn't have to be the case.

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Old Feb 23, 2013, 12:28 PM   #7578
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SeasonPass Stats‏@SeasonPassStats

2013 G Larry Austin Jr. (@_LarryAustin2_) adds 6 pts for Lanphier in a 48-39 loss to Lincoln http://ow.ly/hZbhB #SeasonPass
2014 of course.

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Old Feb 23, 2013, 12:42 PM   #7579
i11ini
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SeasonPass Stats‏@SeasonPassStats

2013 G Larry Austin Jr. (@_LarryAustin2_) adds 6 pts for Lanphier in a 48-39 loss to Lincoln http://ow.ly/hZbhB #SeasonPass

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Originally Posted by DaytonIllini View Post
2014 of course.
Hmm, only 6pts and with the loss? I would venture to say that L. Austin is probably a backup option at this stage.

Give us Lyle!!!!!
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 12:49 PM   #7580
cash35
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Im not a huge austin fan either but dont put too much in that loss to lincoln. NOBODY puts up big numbrrs against Lincoln
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 01:17 PM   #7581
ILL in Iowa
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Originally Posted by DaytonIllini View Post
You may be right. To clarify though I think Groce has a ton of options that are not program changers in terms of potential.

Anyway as I have said, I really want Lyle despite his behavior issues. I guess I just understand fans that would not want to risk upsetting the chemistry of the team. In fairness we don't know that Lyle is Groce's #1 choice. A couple posters have said that emphatically. I don't know that Groce wouldn't prefer Zabo or some other kid we have not even heard our name tied to yet.
I think it is fair to say that Illinois "chemistry" and "attitude" have been a major part of the problem over the last five years. The only other major problem I can point to is the lack of "elite" talent. That is why we have nothing to lose by putting faith in Coach Groce's ability to judge character at this point.
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 01:46 PM   #7582
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Originally Posted by cash35 View Post
Im not a huge austin fan either but dont put too much in that loss to lincoln. NOBODY puts up big numbrrs against Lincoln
Malcolm had 28 against them last year..

http://stats.stlhighschoolsports.com...vent399548.php
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 02:09 PM   #7583
cash35
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Got anything else?
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 02:25 PM   #7584
cash35
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How did mathews play in front of groce? Really hope this kid chooses illinois
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 02:26 PM   #7585
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2015 G Charles Matthews (@CMATTHEWS_1) notches 13 pts for St. Rita in a 55-50 win over St. Joseph http://ow.ly/hZ8VE #SeasonPass

http://twitter.com/SeasonPassStats
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 02:31 PM   #7586
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Maverick Morgan with 21 pt (8-10 fg) and 9 rebounds in first OHSAA tourney game.
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 02:31 PM   #7587
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Originally Posted by OrangeAndBlue217 View Post
Strength is not Henry's issue. It's foot speed and ball handling.
If Griffey can at least become a threat putting the ball on the floor, no matter who unpretty it is, there is no reason Henry should not be able to develop that.

I never thought Griffey could add that to his game, so keeping an open mind Myke will be able to hopefully.

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Old Feb 23, 2013, 02:32 PM   #7588
DaytonIllini
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Originally Posted by ChiCityHoops34 View Post
We haven't yet been able to evaluate Groce's talent evaluation, and i think until we are able to do that it is only fair to trust who he is recruiting.
It is doubtless a personality flaw in me but I always thought trust was always earned, never given.

You don't exactly have to limit yourself to Groce's judgement at Illinois. He does have a track record you can look at in Athens. There was a lot of turnover in that program including at least 3 recruits that never made it on the court.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILL in Iowa View Post
I think it is fair to say that Illinois "chemistry" and "attitude" have been a major part of the problem over the last five years. The only other major problem I can point to is the lack of "elite" talent. That is why we have nothing to lose by putting faith in Coach Groce's ability to judge character at this point.
Coach Groce has had some difficulty judging character in the past. See Armon Bassett, James Kinney, Marquis Horne, Tyquan Goard. It's a pretty big chunk of his recruits as a head coach (and there are a couple others that didn't ever play for reasons I don't recall having to do with injury or bad behavior). I am not saying that I would not have wanted any of those kids were our roles reversed. Just that he has not been some kind of guru when it comes to looking into a recruit's soul and determining if he'd ever be a good kid or a contributor for his team.

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Old Feb 23, 2013, 02:40 PM   #7589
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Did Groce get a chance after the game to talk to Matthews?
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 02:42 PM   #7590
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Originally Posted by TCTORNADO View Post
Maverick Morgan with 21 pt (8-10 fg) and 9 rebounds in first OHSAA tourney game.
Did they win to advance?

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"I do want to address something. I understand there was an article written about Illinois basketball being put in it's place. I'm going to tell you what place it's in. It's in a great place. That's what place it's in.... So if anyone wants to know what place Illinois college hoops is in right now, it's in a great place. Not a good place. A great place" - JFG
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 02:46 PM   #7591
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Did they win to advance?
Yup 72-38, sorry about that.
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 03:17 PM   #7592
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Originally Posted by DaytonIllini View Post
It is doubtless a personality flaw in me but I always thought trust was always earned, never given.

You don't exactly have to limit yourself to Groce's judgement at Illinois. He does have a track record you can look at in Athens. There was a lot of turnover in that program including at least 3 recruits that never made it on the court.



Coach Groce has had some difficulty judging character in the past. See Armon Bassett, James Kinney, Marquis Horne, Tyquan Goard. It's a pretty big chunk of his recruits as a head coach (and there are a couple others that didn't ever play for reasons I don't recall having to do with injury or bad behavior). I am not saying that I would not have wanted any of those kids were our roles reversed. Just that he has not been some kind of guru when it comes to looking into a recruit's soul and determining if he'd ever be a good kid or a contributor for his team.
I don't know the history on any of these guys other than Bassett at IU. I know Bassett is at San Jose and playing pretty well. What were the character issues with these guys? What problems did they create at Ohio?
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 03:46 PM   #7593
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Originally Posted by DaytonIllini View Post
It is doubtless a personality flaw in me but I always thought trust was always earned, never given.

You don't exactly have to limit yourself to Groce's judgement at Illinois. He does have a track record you can look at in Athens. There was a lot of turnover in that program including at least 3 recruits that never made it on the court.



Coach Groce has had some difficulty judging character in the past. See Armon Bassett, James Kinney, Marquis Horne, Tyquan Goard. It's a pretty big chunk of his recruits as a head coach (and there are a couple others that didn't ever play for reasons I don't recall having to do with injury or bad behavior). I am not saying that I would not have wanted any of those kids were our roles reversed. Just that he has not been some kind of guru when it comes to looking into a recruit's soul and determining if he'd ever be a good kid or a contributor for his team.
No coach is perfect when evaluating kids character. You are going to hit on some and miss on others. Obviously, the more talented recruits are going to get the benefit of the doubt.
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 03:56 PM   #7594
ILL in Iowa
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Originally Posted by DaytonIllini View Post
It is doubtless a personality flaw in me but I always thought trust was always earned, never given.

You don't exactly have to limit yourself to Groce's judgement at Illinois. He does have a track record you can look at in Athens. There was a lot of turnover in that program including at least 3 recruits that never made it on the court.



Coach Groce has had some difficulty judging character in the past. See Armon Bassett, James Kinney, Marquis Horne, Tyquan Goard. It's a pretty big chunk of his recruits as a head coach (and there are a couple others that didn't ever play for reasons I don't recall having to do with injury or bad behavior). I am not saying that I would not have wanted any of those kids were our roles reversed. Just that he has not been some kind of guru when it comes to looking into a recruit's soul and determining if he'd ever be a good kid or a contributor for his team.
Point taken Dayton. Yet even with all those "misses" he was able to make a deep run in the NCAA tournament so overall it didn't seem to mess up the teams "chemistry". So in my mind it has been earned as much as a new coach at any school can earn it.
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 04:08 PM   #7595
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Originally Posted by alexander58 View Post
No coach is perfect when evaluating kids character. You are going to hit on some and miss on others. Obviously, the more talented recruits are going to get the benefit of the doubt.
Didn't Bassett lead Ohio to the NCAA tourney? When your a mid-major coach I think you have to take more risks on guys with off the court problems which may explain a few of those listed. But if the biggest knock on a 5 star point guard is that he walked off the court once and got into a fight with a teammate, I think those are character issues you could take a chance on.
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 04:12 PM   #7596
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Originally Posted by Jphill1989 View Post
Malcolm had 28 against them last year..

http://stats.stlhighschoolsports.com...vent399548.php
I think you're proving his point. Lincoln managed to hold Malcolm under 30.
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 04:27 PM   #7597
DaytonIllini
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Originally Posted by illineuron View Post
I don't know the history on any of these guys other than Bassett at IU. I know Bassett is at San Jose and playing pretty well. What were the character issues with these guys? What problems did they create at Ohio?
Goard had a bunch of run-ins and was in Groce's doghouse but ultimately Groce would not let him travel to or play for the MAC tournament or the NCAA's. The cause of his banishment was never revealed as far as I know. He might be playing at West Va State or Marshall or something like that now.

Kinney reportedly had multiple run ins with the law during the season and was kicked off the team. He was from Champaign IIRC.

I forget Horne's story. IIRC he left before his first season started and missed some time. He is out in California playing right now I think.

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Originally Posted by alexander58 View Post
No coach is perfect when evaluating kids character. You are going to hit on some and miss on others. Obviously, the more talented recruits are going to get the benefit of the doubt.
Agreed. It just sounded like our fans were making a mythology of infallibility about our coach. In Groce We Trust. And all that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILL in Iowa View Post
Point taken Dayton. Yet even with all those "misses" he was able to make a deep run in the NCAA tournament so overall it didn't seem to mess up the teams "chemistry". So in my mind it has been earned as much as a new coach at any school can earn it.
Yes. I think he's a good coach. Not trying to imply otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Jimmy McNulty View Post
Didn't Bassett lead Ohio to the NCAA tourney? When your a mid-major coach I think you have to take more risks on guys with off the court problems which may explain a few of those listed. But if the biggest knock on a 5 star point guard is that he walked off the court once and got into a fight with a teammate, I think those are character issues you could take a chance on.
He did lead them to a MAC tournament championship. Of course he was arrested for assault just after that and left school. He's been arrested since leaving college as well.

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Old Feb 23, 2013, 04:44 PM   #7598
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Originally Posted by Jimmy McNulty View Post
Didn't Bassett lead Ohio to the NCAA tourney? When your a mid-major coach I think you have to take more risks on guys with off the court problems which may explain a few of those listed. But if the biggest knock on a 5 star point guard is that he walked off the court once and got into a fight with a teammate, I think those are character issues you could take a chance on.
And, as Dayton has been saying, you might also take chances on kids with red flags when you're a new high-major coach and trying to make a splash recruiting. That doesn't mean the red flags aren't there. It's nuts to look at Lyle and not notice them. He has red flags coming out of his nostrils: Immature on-court demeanor, walking off the court early, fighting and suspensions, persistent references to maturity issues from people around Indiana high school basketball... If those don't represent character issues to you, what exactly does?
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 05:30 PM   #7599
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And, as Dayton has been saying, you might also take chances on kids with red flags when you're a new high-major coach and trying to make a splash recruiting. That doesn't mean the red flags aren't there. It's nuts to look at Lyle and not notice them. He has red flags coming out of his nostrils: Immature on-court demeanor, walking off the court early, fighting and suspensions, persistent references to maturity issues from people around Indiana high school basketball... If those don't represent character issues to you, what exactly does?
Seems like his character issues have grown geometrically in this post....how many fights and suspensions has he had?......persistent references to maturity issues from people around Indiana high school basketball?....what people and what is persistent?..How many high school coaches has he run through?...any transfers for disciplinary problems?..any arrests?..is he qualified academically?

Anyhow,..if he has all these character issues then what are the top programs in the country wasting their time on?....
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 05:34 PM   #7600
Mike
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Im not a huge austin fan either but dont put too much in that loss to lincoln. NOBODY puts up big numbrrs against Lincoln
Don't know about their varsity, but saw their frosh team this year. They knew what they were doing, and the local refs kind of made it 5 on 7. I wouldn't read too much into that game for LA.
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