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Old Feb 17, 2017, 11:32 AM   #5826
Greensboro
Posts: 1,426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin View Post
No idea what the reason, but possibilities:

* They want to get a jump on the coaching search
* They want to get ahead of possible rumors if it's not announced
* There's a reason to distance from him now (he's done something we don't know about that will come to light)
* Appease boosters
* They don't know what they're doing...Ding Ding
* They do know what they're doing and don't want it to get out that they're working channels while their coach is still there

Personally, I'm not sure it's the worst thing you can do. While some on this board say you should have a replacement before cutting the cord, I don't think that's realistic. I'm not opposed to keeping it under wraps either, but there may be some advantage to being an early opening. I think most people want to do everything possible in our situation to make a smooth transition given the recruiting implications, but I expect there will be fallout. If we're lucky, we're able to move quickly, and the hire keeps everyone on board. I'm not counting on it though.
They messed up with leaks he was getting fired after Saturday's debacle against Wake...
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 11:41 AM   #5827
thebizz81
Posts: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by UofI08 View Post
You're missing the point that the true WRONG is Groce. He's a bad coach. He's had terrible results and ample time.

To answer your questions, yes I fire Groce and don't think twice about losing Tilmon and Frazier. I'd really like for you to find an example of a coach that gets NO players. Yet to see that happen.

Also, since you're bring up keeping recruits, what about keeping the actual players on the team? There's probably a better chance of losing multiple players than losing multiple recruits if we keep Groce. Do you think Williams and Jordan are happy as bench warmers for a terrible team? (While also arguably 2 of the top 3 most athletic players on the team)

It's a simple decision. Groce is a terrible coach so he will be replaced. It's JW's job to find a good replacement.

You are missing my point. I think Groce should and will be fired, but its fueled by the though that something better will come of this, much like Whitman is looking at this. This should be the sentiment on here IMO not Groce Must go no matter what or Groce needs to stay for the recruiting class. Really it should be what yields the best outcome in the future, of which Whitman has the information to make that decision.

Not once did I say Groce should stay solely for the incoming class, but you have to consider that when making a decision. If I were to tell you Dan Mueller was the best Whitman would pull and that he kept neither Tilmon nor Frazier, would you be as amped to just blindly fire the guy? I dont think that will transpire but I wouldn't, which is why speaking in absolutes does not make sense.

My point is no one knows what is happening behind the scenes. Many, such as myself, ultimately feel a change should be made, but that change will be made by Whitman once all factors are considered, and he will make the best decision, that I am confident in, so its pointless to speak in absolute terms in the meantime.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 11:43 AM   #5828
LurkLongandProsper
Location: C-U
Posts: 2,077
Quote:
Originally Posted by UofI08 View Post
I don't think we're far off in our thoughts on Keatts. I brought up the tournament thing because tourney resumes are a thing people look at. At UNCW, Keatts has definitely done well and respectable. I'm just saying if he was at a mid-major, instead of low-major, he'd have a more realistic chance of making a tourney run.

Where we differ is the Hargrave resume. Obviously he had a lot of success but Hargrave is a prep school known for athletics. If he wasn't wildly successful there, that would be a huge concern.

I think Keatts has all the makings of a solid P5 coach, I just worry that a jump from 3 years in the CAA into B1G could be a huge deterrent to his coaching development. Ideally 2-4 years at a mid-major or low high-major would provide him the perfect seasoning for a big time job.
Certainly, I don't disagree with any of that commentary. But I think his resume at a CAA stop is about as good as you're going to find for a guy making upward movement. Whether you are comfortable with him making the leap here is an individual perspective, and there's not a right/wrong answer. I have no issues with any conclusion either way there.

I do think comparing him to Groce, for example, is (1) unfair, and (2) not based in the reality of their resumes. I just want analyses of him to be fair, regardless of the hire/pass conclusion drawn from the analyses.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 12:05 PM   #5829
LurkLongandProsper
Location: C-U
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UofI08 View Post
Agree his resume is about as good as it gets for someone with such little experience. And I wouldn't be upset about a Keatts hire. He seems like a guy that would find a way to be successful wherever he ends up. It's just very risky, simply because of the huge jump, in my opinion.

Yeah I don't like the comparison to Groce and don't believe I've made any directly. I'm also hesitant to compare him to Self because Self had a more established resume by the time Illinois hired him. Who knows if Self would've been as succesful if he pulled him straight from Oral Roberts?
Someone else made the Groce comp, that wasn't pointed at you. And obviously you're not comparing Keatts directly to Self here, but it's worth mentioning Self's work at OR was really not that good at all (.505 win%), which is why he went to Tulsa from OR and not somewhere bigger. Keatts is basically as good as you'll find at the low-major level.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 12:05 PM   #5830
illiniboy60074
Posts: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by eMitch View Post
I was at ISU during those years. I still remember me and my roommate jumping around the living room pouring beer on each others head after Nick Anderson hit the buzzer beater at Indiana.

Plenty of good times but I can't name a single person who thought Henson was good coach at the time. They all thought he was a good guy, but he took a ton of blame for not living up to expectations.




I think a lot of us from the early Henson era thought he was a good enough coach. I always remember what was said by friends of mine at the Sigma Chi house where Steve Lanter lived. Lanter said that Henson was a good practice coach but a terrible game coach. Especially when it was a close game. If Henson called a time out during a close game he would often stand there and say nothing - sounded like an anxiety attack. Still, I would love to have a version of Henson now versus what we do have.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 12:09 PM   #5831
bert1991
Location: Chicago
Posts: 177
What chance (if any) do we have of landing Mark Smith (keeping in mind the new offers coming in every day)? Is our chance better or worse with John Groce as our HC (keeping in mind MS previous visits/ growing relationship with current signed recruits/ JG / other staff, etc.)

50%, 10%, 0%?
With JG?
With other? <insert potential candidate>
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 12:14 PM   #5832
WesterveltVictoryCigar
Posts: 12,976
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebizz81 View Post
Not once did I say Groce should stay solely for the incoming class, but you have to consider that when making a decision. If I were to tell you Dan Mueller was the best Whitman would pull and that he kept neither Tilmon nor Frazier, would you be as amped to just blindly fire the guy? I dont think that will transpire but I wouldn't, which is why speaking in absolutes does not make sense.
If Mueller is the best we can get then we've got bigger problems than just deciding whether to fire Groce or not. Also I'm pretty confident Whitman won't "blindly" do anything.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 12:15 PM   #5833
OrangeAndBlues
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Location: Indianapolis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert1991 View Post
What chance (if any) do we have of landing Mark Smith (keeping in mind the new offers coming in every day)? Is our chance better or worse with John Groce as our HC (keeping in mind MS previous visits/ growing relationship with current signed recruits/ JG / other staff, etc.)

50%, 10%, 0%?
With JG?
With other? <insert potential candidate>
With Groce: 0%
Without Groce: >0%
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 12:21 PM   #5834
DoctorofJazz
Posts: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by illiniboy60074 View Post
I think a lot of us from the early Henson era thought he was a good enough coach. I always remember what was said by friends of mine at the Sigma Chi house where Steve Lanter lived. Lanter said that Henson was a good practice coach but a terrible game coach. Especially when it was a close game. If Henson called a time out during a close game he would often stand there and say nothing - sounded like an anxiety attack. Still, I would love to have a version of Henson now versus what we do have.
I just watched the last couple of minutes of the 1989 NCAA Tourney game with Illinois and Michigan. I noticed that Lou almost never got animated on the sidelines.

I also seem to remember Henson's teams having problems with free throws, especially in close games.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 12:29 PM   #5835
VAIllini35
Posts: 1,944
Quote:
Originally Posted by LurkLongandProsper View Post
Keatts' year 2 UNCW squad played Duke last year, a team that made the E8, and covered the spread against them. Obviously you want wins, but he still outperformed expectations against a really strong Duke team just last year..
They also lost to Radford last year. I also know a coach that knocked off a number 1 Indiana a few years back. Hmm...
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 12:37 PM   #5836
LurkLongandProsper
Location: C-U
Posts: 2,077
Quote:
Originally Posted by VAIllini35 View Post
They also lost to Radford last year. I also know a coach that knocked off a number 1 Indiana a few years back. Hmm...
Yeah, teams sometimes lose to teams they shouldn't, he still won the conference title last year as well. The point I was responding to was about if his team could compete in the tournament. They did.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 12:38 PM   #5837
KrushCow31
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Posts: 264
I am fully on team Keatts. My only hesitation is just how bad the CAA has become now that VCU, Old Dominion, and George Mason have left. OD and George Mason left in 2013 the year or two before Keatts took over.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 12:44 PM   #5838
Greensboro
Posts: 1,426
Quote:
Originally Posted by TownieMatt View Post
Wouldn't be shocked if Keatts lands at NCST. Makes more sense than Illinois in terms of area connections, and Illinois isn't a significantly better job at this point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fighter of the Nightman View Post
8 years of sucking doesn't change the potential of a job like Illinois THAT much.
One of these schools is 1 of 15 schools with 2 or more NCAA championships & it isn't us. I think many outside of this board would consider NCState the better job even before the 8 years of suck.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 12:44 PM   #5839
zpfled
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Cuonzo Martin wants the Illinois job. He'll bring Charlie Moore with him.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 12:52 PM   #5840
KrushCow31
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Location: South Bend, IN
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Originally Posted by Greensboro View Post
One of these schools is 1 of 15 schools with 2 or more NCAA championships & it isn't us. I think many outside of this board would consider NCState the better job even before the 8 years of suck.
One of the articles already spoke about how NCState is a dangerous job because their fans have deluded and unrealistic expectations. If you can get fired midway through the season after making the tournament 6 of the last 8 years, including sweet 16s, what kind of job security is that?
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 12:54 PM   #5841
zpfled
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Originally Posted by Kajagoogoo View Post
Bold.


This is just my own speculation, but I think that Cuonzo would be able to land Mark Smith if he came to Illinois. I really hope that Frazier still comes to UI next year, but Moore and Smith would sure help if Frazier decommits.

Having a consistent backcourt featuring 2 legit PGs at all times would be so nice.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 12:57 PM   #5842
LisaMarie
Posts: 49
There's hot list on the Scout NC State site with many of the same names discussed here...a handy reference of resumes, salaries and buyouts all in one place.


http://www.scout.com/college/north-c...de-s-big-board

Last edited by LisaMarie; Feb 17, 2017 at 01:00 PM.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 12:57 PM   #5843
Illiniguy13
Posts: 499
Quote:
Originally Posted by zpfled View Post


This is just my own speculation, but I think that Cuonzo would be able to land Mark Smith if he came to Illinois. I really hope that Frazier still comes to UI next year, but Moore and Smith would sure help if Frazier decommits.

Having a consistent backcourt featuring 2 legit PGs at all times would be so nice.

If the Cuonzo Martin package includes Charlie Moore & landing Smith, sign me up immediately. This may never happen and will probably be a moot point, but if it were to play out like that... I daresay there would be a log-jam at point guard...weird to think about.

Last edited by Illiniguy13; Feb 17, 2017 at 01:03 PM.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 01:03 PM   #5844
StateFarmCenter
Posts: 770
Quote:
Originally Posted by bert1991 View Post
What chance (if any) do we have of landing Mark Smith (keeping in mind the new offers coming in every day)? Is our chance better or worse with John Groce as our HC (keeping in mind MS previous visits/ growing relationship with current signed recruits/ JG / other staff, etc.)

50%, 10%, 0%?
With JG?
With other? <insert potential candidate>
Cuonzo Martin is recruiting him and it's not to Cal. I'm not sure if it's to Illinois, but it's not to Cal.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 01:10 PM   #5845
zpfled
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illiniguy13 View Post
If the Cuonzo Martin package includes Charlie Moore & landing Smith, sign me up immediately. This may never happen and will probably be a moot point, but if it were to play out like that... I daresay there would be a log-jam at point guard...weird to think about.
We could easily play 4 PGs who can all handle, score, and shoot (at least shoot enough to be guarded).
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 01:10 PM   #5846
Kajagoogoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zpfled View Post


This is just my own speculation, but I think that Cuonzo would be able to land Mark Smith if he came to Illinois. I really hope that Frazier still comes to UI next year, but Moore and Smith would sure help if Frazier decommits.

Having a consistent backcourt featuring 2 legit PGs at all times would be so nice.
Gotcha. I'd be extremely surprised to see Moore leave Cal with Cuonzo. JMHO.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 01:14 PM   #5847
Calvin
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,222
Quote:
Originally Posted by LisaMarie View Post
There's hot list on the Scout NC State site with many of the same names discussed here...a handy reference of resumes, salaries and buyouts all in one place.


http://www.scout.com/college/north-c...de-s-big-board
Great synopsis, thanks for posting.

This makes me wonder even more how much money we'll pony up. NC State is looking at $3-4 mil. When have we ever paid anywhere close to that? A lot of these guys will move only for a substantial bump, and even then, you don't know if the school they're at will respond. I know JW is a different AD, but our history makes me cringe at the prospect of getting turned down by our A-list.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 01:31 PM   #5848
WesterveltVictoryCigar
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Originally Posted by Calvin View Post
Great synopsis, thanks for posting.

This makes me wonder even more how much money we'll pony up. NC State is looking at $3-4 mil. When have we ever paid anywhere close to that? A lot of these guys will move only for a substantial bump, and even then, you don't know if the school they're at will respond. I know JW is a different AD, but our history makes me cringe at the prospect of getting turned down by our A-list.
Well, we paid a lot more for Lovie than we ever had for a football coach. The question is, was that an overall change in philosophy, or did we use up everything we had on that side of Kirby?
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 01:33 PM   #5849
thebizz81
Posts: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by UofI08 View Post
If Dan Muller is the choice, I initially wouldn't be happy but would give him his fair shot. And if he were to make the tournament and win a game or 2 this year, he'd have a better resume than Groce did when he was hired here. Both are/were around 40 years old. 10+ year assistants at solid D1 programs. Where they differ is that Muller has a better conference performance as a head coach than Groce did. Better conference records and finishes. The only thing Groce had on Muller is NCAA tourney performance.

I honestly had never looked into Muller and still don't really think he's anywhere near the top of a list, or even on the list at all, but he's really not that terrible of an idea. 40 years old. Indiana and Illinois guy. Longtime assistant. Showed improvement, at least in conference, every year. Not far fetched at all to see him jumping to the P5 in the next few years.
Fair enough, I think most of us agree a change should be made, I guess I feel that debating whether a change should be made is a bit irrelevant because I for once actually trust that our AD will make the proper, well-informed decision.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 01:38 PM   #5850
Fighter of the Nightman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin View Post
Great synopsis, thanks for posting.

This makes me wonder even more how much money we'll pony up. NC State is looking at $3-4 mil. When have we ever paid anywhere close to that? A lot of these guys will move only for a substantial bump, and even then, you don't know if the school they're at will respond. I know JW is a different AD, but our history makes me cringe at the prospect of getting turned down by our A-list.
I understand this thought process, but I can't emphasize enough how much of a cancer it has been on Illinois athletics not realizing its VAST inherent potential. RG was cheap as hell, and he ran Illinois athletics like a mom 'n' pop shop, and our results showed it: we might succeed in the short term from time to time, but we never grew. We never showed any inclination of wanting to be OSU or Michigan, and we should have.

Mike Thomas, for all of his faults, pushed the needle in the right direction on this. He probably overpaid for both Groce and Beckman, but it sent an important message: he wanted Illinois to be viewed as a big money school. A school with deep pockets that was committed to being big time in sports. Problem was, apparently, he didn't have the charisma or likability to get donors on board, and that was probably part of his ultimate demise. I believe Whitman has made the final step in this. With the Lovie hire, he showed not only a very impressive commitment to investing heavily in athletics but also in being able to get donors on board to pony up that cash.

I'm optimistic the days of "when have we ever spent money like that?" are long, long over.
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