Politics

[3G Illini]

Why do we have to have this !!!! on Track 5 ? You can't do anything about it anymore than I can. It's pointless and divisional, and only serves the purpose of those that wish to divide and conquer (the corporations and the established parties). Give it up. Do something constructive locally, and forget about the national level. You can't change anything, and your silly rhetoric only serves to piss people off!

[DaytonIllini]

The beauty of this site is that if this thread offends you, it is pretty darn easy to avoid it. OTOH, you also can try and dissuade the discussion with comments like you made.

I would say though that you are dead wrong that people cannot influence politics on a national level. I have had lunch with my local rep on a single issue and while I thought it was a pointless exercise at the time, it turned out that he changed his mind on the subject and signed on to what I was asking him to. President Obama thru his HHS secretary Sebelius agreed and made the change.

Now am I foolish enough to think that I alone caused this? Absolutely not, but it is clear that the grass roots effort that I was a part of averted what I was concerned about. Might it have happened without my intervention? Of course.

When people believe that they cannot do anything about Washington, we as a nation are finished.

I would agree that we should do something locally constructive though. That works best. As a group though this site has let us aggregate news stories that we might have missed but far more importantly, it has allowed both sides to share their thoughts on the same story. That has allowed many members to be more empathetic of the other side and that is no small accomplishment.

[4ever]

Originally Posted by ill07

2) I think more than anything that was Franken's way of fighting against a perceived (correctly or incorrectly) plan to delay the bill as long as humanly possible by rambling on. They want to put it to a vote or have some kind of meaningful action, and I'm not sure that that is completely illegitimate.

I disagree with ya ill07. It's a matter of perception however when you take into consideration how polarizing and far left Franken is, It's not at all out of the realm of possibility that he was just playing to his crowd, putting politics above everything else and just being down right disrespectful to the entire process. Franken is a nut and hopefully we all know that so his actions are easily figured out. After all, this isn't the first problem in the Senate with this clown. He has attacked conservative republicans before in his capacity as a senator. Gosh, it makes me sick to my stomach to even refer to him as senator. Lieberman just needed a couple more minutes. Franken didn't agree with his posistion so he shut him down. Lieberman is a distinguished senior senator. Franken is an idiot freshman, that needs to show a little respect to the senior member. Why was he even chairing the board? Could it be because another far left $%^%#@ and leader of the Senate Harry Reid wanted Franken to control the show ?

Originally Posted by illinigrad

Exactly.
Most of these 'tactics' are pretty common from both sides, and have been used on several occasions. The only difference these days is that common people have access to such proceedings (online videos, emails etc), and so they get riled up when the 'other' party does something which they don't like.

Originally Posted by illinigrad

I'm no fan of Al, or of any senator for that matter. The thing which he did was neither evil, nor disrespecting. This is how the game is played, and all the senators are adept at playing this game. .

Grad,Your contradicting yourself. On one hand your calling this way of shutting up your opponent "Tactics". Next you say it's neither evil or disrespecting. Well, which is it? If it's like you say it is " a tactic" then it's deffinitely disrespectful and evil because it derails the process and impedes progress which is what our congressmen are supposed to do. They work for us and are supposed to be working for the betterment of our country.

Grad, playing games in the senate is disrespectful and harmful.

[ill07]

Originally Posted by DaytonIllini

He again asks for time that would come from Mr. McCain and Mr. McCain objects to having his time hijacked by 'the other side' but is more than happy to allow the other side to yield time.

Completely different from what happened under Lieberman-Franken.

And then when Byrd asked for an extra minute afterward, McCain objected AGAIN. And said this:

“I wish to say very briefly that I understand people have a desire to speak. We have a number of Senators who have not spoken on this issue. It is already looking as if we may be here well into this evening. From now on, I will be adhering strictly to the rules."

So he can adhere strictly to the rules when it suits him, but others cannot?

[ill07]

Originally Posted by 4ever

I disagree with ya ill07. It's a matter of perception however when you take into consideration how polarizing and far left Franken is, It's not at all out of the realm of possibility that he was just playing to his crowd, putting politics above everything else and just being down right disrespectful to the entire process. Franken is a nut and hopefully we all know that so his actions are easily figured out. After all, this isn't the first problem in the Senate with this clown. He has attacked conservative republicans before in his capacity as a senator. Gosh, it makes me sick to my stomach to even refer to him as senator. Lieberman just needed a couple more minutes. Franken didn't agree with his posistion so he shut him down. Lieberman is a distinguished senior senator. Franken is an idiot freshman, that needs to show a little respect to the senior member. Why was he even chairing the board? Could it be because another far left $%^%#@ and leader of the Senate Harry Reid wanted Franken to control the show ?

It's funny how you're willing to impute that intent on people you disagree with. If a Republican did it, I bet we'd be hearing a different tune. Because they aren't polarizing at all...:laugh::rolleyes:

[4ever]

Originally Posted by ill07

It's funny how you're willing to impute that intent on people you disagree with. If a Republican did it, I bet we'd be hearing a different tune. Because they aren't polarizing at all...:laugh::rolleyes:

I don't want to argue and I don't think you can prove I was wrong with my assesment. Their is a long list of far left dems that I can't stand, we will just leave it at that.

[Champaignillini]

Originally Posted by 4ever

Grad,Your contradicting yourself. On one hand your calling this way of shutting up your opponent "Tactics". Next you say it's neither evil or disrespecting. Well, which is it? If it's like you say it is " a tactic" then it's deffinitely disrespectful and evil because it derails the process and impedes progress which is what our congressmen are supposed to do. They work for us and are supposed to be working for the betterment of our country.

Grad, playing games in the senate is disrespectful and harmful.

The word "tactic" doesn't inherently mean negative or disrespectful under every circumstance. It's a strategy to achieve ones goals. Republicans will use tactics to delay the proceedings, and democrats will use them to thwart those attempts. That's how the "game" is played. At the end of the day, you need 60 votes, and that is what counts in the Senate.

[Champaignillini]

Originally Posted by ill07

So he can adhere strictly to the rules when it suits him, but others cannot?

Everyone does this and McCain is no different. The only difference this time around was that people have access to videos/clips etc, and they forward it to every Tom, Dick and Harry to make their point.

[danielb927]

I love the political discussions on here... gets heated at times but as a college freshmen trying to really solidify a political stance it is nice to see the older members engaged in respectful discussion, keep it up and hopefully I'll be able to chime in with more informed posts in the years to come!

[illinirazorback]

Originally Posted by danielb927

I love the political discussions on here... gets heated at times but as a college freshmen trying to really solidify a political stance it is nice to see the older members engaged in respectful discussion, keep it up and hopefully I'll be able to chime in with more informed posts in the years to come!

I forget where I heard it, but...

"If you're not a liberal by age 20, you're heartless. If you're not a conservative by age 30, you're brainless."

:laugh:

[danielb927]

Originally Posted by illinirazorback

I forget where I heard it, but...

"If you're not a liberal by age 20, you're heartless. If you're not a conservative by age 30, you're brainless."

:laugh:

I think my uncle told me that one! I'd say I'm a little right of center at this point so who knows where I'll end up by the time I'm 30.

[4ever]

Originally Posted by illinigrad

The word "tactic" doesn't inherently mean negative or disrespectful under every circumstance.

your correct Grad but apply it in this situation and it is disrespectful.

Lets apply it to both parties and see how you respond. Is it wrong for both parties(that even includes the far left dems ) to be partisan and to attack the process and stall debate?

[uiba99]

Originally Posted by 4ever

your correct Grad but apply it in this situation and it is disrespectful.

Lets apply it to both parties and see how you respond. Is it wrong for both parties(that even includes the far left dems ) to be partisan and to attack the process and stall debate?

I think extreme partisanship at the expense of reasonable compromise is a failure of the system.

However, extreme partisans and most of the folks in the leadership of the major political parties would say it's how the system should work.

And maybe we all have a point...

I just miss the days when people could (for the most part) have an intelligent discussion without it devolving into personal attacks and radical assumptions about another person's character or worth. Then again, it's entirely possible that those days never existed.....

[DaytonIllini]

Originally Posted by uiba99

I think extreme partisanship at the expense of reasonable compromise is a failure of the system.

However, extreme partisans and most of the folks in the leadership of the major political parties would say it's how the system should work.

And maybe we all have a point...

I just miss the days when people could (for the most part) have an intelligent discussion without it devolving into personal attacks and radical assumptions about another person's character or worth. Then again, it's entirely possible that those days never existed.....

uiba - if you ever get a chance, read up on the election of Andrew Jackson and his impeachment. It makes anything done today look completely friendly. You can go further back and look at the fight between supporters of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson.

Politics has always been ugly. There was a time though that it was less available to the public (or at least the public could not respond).

The politics of today though is not between Dems and Republicans. Republicans are utterly irrelevant. The fight today, quite simply, is entirely within the Democratic party. It is going through the same fratricide that the Republicans did the last 20 years. If history is a judge, it will be ugly and the Democrats will come out the other end having purged their moderates. We will then have a right wing party and a left wing party with absolutely no overlap and no common ground.

[4ever]

Originally Posted by DaytonIllini

We will then have a right wing party and a left wing party with absolutely no overlap and no common ground.

Thats where we are fastly heading.

[Champaignillini]

Originally Posted by 4ever

your correct Grad but apply it in this situation and it is disrespectful.

Lets apply it to both parties and see how you respond.

I'm all for it. That's exactly what I stated in my 1st post.

[ilphotog]

http://biggovernment.com/2009/12/21/...lth-care-bill/

[ill07]

Originally Posted by uiba99

I think extreme partisanship at the expense of reasonable compromise is a failure of the system.

However, extreme partisans and most of the folks in the leadership of the major political parties would say it's how the system should work.

All too human, all too true.

The two-party system is sinking faster than ever. The sooner we get rid of it, I think, the better.

[ill07]

Originally Posted by 4ever

I don't want to argue and I don't think you can prove I was wrong with my assesment.

Well for what it's worth, I don't think you can prove that you were correct with your assessment either. Thus we run into a Russell's Teapot situation; the burden of proof is on the person making the initial claim.

[ilphotog]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,580959,00.html

Decorations orderd off of christmas tree, ruled offensive!

[danielb927]

Originally Posted by ilphotog

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,580959,00.html

Decorations orderd off of christmas tree, ruled offensive!

I'm glad one person getting offended is all you need these days. The fact that this guy considers a christmas ornament part of the "cult of christianity" should tell you all you need to know...

[bmb777]

Originally Posted by ilphotog

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,580959,00.html

Decorations orderd off of christmas tree, ruled offensive!

what I want to know.....some guy doesnt believe in God and Christianity....ok he certainly has the right to believe whatever he wants to. but honestly, an angel on a christmas tree......does that actually affect his personal life in any way, shape or form? I mean good Lord hes an idiot if an angel on a christmas tree actually affects his personal life.

[Champaignillini]

Originally Posted by bmb777

what I want to know.....some guy doesnt believe in God and Christianity....ok he certainly has the right to believe whatever he wants to. but honestly, an angel on a christmas tree......does that actually affect his personal life in any way, shape or form? I mean good Lord hes an idiot if an angel on a christmas tree actually affects his personal life.

Common sense will tell you that such decorations will never harm anyone, but you'll still find people who will oppose them tooth and nail. My best guess is that such people are either obsessively 'activist types', or they are driven by some kind of hate or injustice (which might be made up in their minds, or might even be legitimate).

I'm sure that you'll find tonnes of people voice their displeasure if they see similar decorations from other religions adorning government property. These people also fit the above characterization.

[danielb927]

Originally Posted by illinigrad

Common sense will tell you that such decorations will never harm anyone, but you'll still find people who will oppose them tooth and nail. My best guess is that such people are either obsessively 'activist types', or they are driven by some kind of hate or injustice (which might be made up in their minds, or might even be legitimate).

I'm sure that you'll find tonnes of people voice their displeasure if they see similar decorations from other religions adorning government property. These people also fit the above characterization.

I know what you mean, a good third of my high school fit this type in various degrees. Needless to say it wears on those of us with common sense after a while!

[ill07]

Originally Posted by illinigrad

I'm sure that you'll find tonnes of people voice their displeasure if they see similar decorations from other religions adorning government property. These people also fit the above characterization.

Disagree. The complete and total separation of church and state, regardless of whether you agree with it, is a legitimate viewpoint.