Big Ten Expansion - Nebraska joins the Big Ten Conference

[WesterveltVictoryCigar]

Originally Posted by SteveWeiss

I always thought that the Big Ten would be ten schools forever, and that that was sacred, but obviously not so. Someday, there might be more than 12 schools in the Big Ten, and then the very name of the conference would an anachronism, an historical artifact that makes no sense in the new context. If identities change, our terms for them need to change as well.

Apparently not.

[3G Illini]

Originally Posted by SteveWeiss

The fact remains that conferences are being reschuffled, and this re-alignment is resulting in "the end of the world as we have known it" to quote one of the editorial writers on this site.

I always thought that the Big Ten would be ten schools forever, and that that was sacred, but obviously not so. Someday, there might be more than 12 schools in the Big Ten, and then the very name of the conference would an anachronism, an historical artifact that makes no sense in the new context. If identities change, our terms for them need to change as well.

Someone pointed out earlier in the discussion that if we'd added Missouri, or if not Missouri, then Syracuse (NY) or Rutgers (The University of New Jersey), we would then represent ten states, with Nebraska in the mix: The Big Ten.

It is strange to think of the world without The Big Ten. The conference would like to retain the name, whether we can make sense out of it in the new configuration or not. But you're right: it won't make much sense beyond historicity.

[SteveWeiss]

Originally Posted by 3G Illini

Someone pointed out earlier in the discussion that if we'd added Missouri, or if not Missouri, then Syracuse (NY) or Rutgers (The University of New Jersey), we would then represent ten states, with Nebraska in the mix: The Big Ten.

It is strange to think of the world without The Big Ten. The conference would like to retain the name, whether we can make sense out of it in the new configuration or not. But you're right: it won't make much sense beyond historicity.

Makes for a great quiz question. When is ten equal to 12? Or it may have application to quantum physics which is also counter-intuitive.

[illiniphil85]

How about we let the term Big Ten represent the 10 original members and then we don't have to worry about the #s of states, #s of teams or the schools? This isn't about quantum physics, more like college sports history for $100, Alex.

[Illini88]

Originally Posted by 3G Illini

But you're right: it won't make much sense beyond historicity.

Someone pointed out that it's not just the name of a conference anymore: it's also the name of a television network.

[Groundhogday]

Originally Posted by SteveWeiss

I don't know how reliable these rankings are. According to the 2010 "US News and World Report" rankings, Duke is 10, Northwestern is 12, and U of I is 39th. Even Notre Dame is ranked higher than the U of I. I suppose that there are as many rankings as there are ranking surveys.

Have you followed this thread at all? Several of us have pointed out numerous times, both on this thread and others, that the US News and World report doesn't measure things that research institutions care about. The ARWU, though imperfect, at least measures things that research universities take seriously. And to reiterate, the Big Ten and CIC are focused on research standings, not undergraduate standings.

[EdgyInChina]

Originally Posted by TellMeRonDA

Great . . the birthplace of one of man's greatest achievements . . the atomic bomb . . they should have stuck to football

Don't they teach anything at UI anymore.. or do all students just play football and basketball now-a-days?
Oppenheimer (from Cal-Berkeley no less) led the team that developed the bomb, not Fermi as others have indicated. He also worked hard to develop the US Atomic Energy Commission and controls to limit the spread of nuclear weapons. But that is NOT on topic...

Sorry....

Get schooled... it's educational.

[zpfled]

Originally Posted by SteveWeiss

I always thought that the Big Ten would be ten schools forever, and that that was sacred, but obviously not so. Someday, there might be more than 12 schools in the Big Ten, and then the very name of the conference would an anachronism, an historical artifact that makes no sense in the new context. If identities change, our terms for them need to change as well.

Ha! This is America...only one thing is $acred.
Having 11 teams in the BT was no problem. The name of the conference does not have to match the number of teams. If we were going to need to change our terms to match the BT's new identity, that change ought to have taken place when PSU joined. It didn't, and the old term fit just fine. Going from 11 to 12 or from 12 to 14 is not as big of a jump as going from 10 to 11 if we're talking about the validity of the name Big Ten.

[SteveWeiss]

Originally Posted by Groundhogday

Have you followed this thread at all? Several of us have pointed out numerous times, both on this thread and others, that the US News and World report doesn't measure things that research institutions care about. The ARWU, though imperfect, at least measures things that research universities take seriously. And to reiterate, the Big Ten and CIC are focused on research standings, not undergraduate standings.

Sorry GHD. When I just now Googled the university rankings I found the one that averages the ARWU, Newsweek (not US News and World Report), and Higher Education surveys, and in that ranking Northwestern is #30 and U of I #25 globally. Not a lot to choose between them, and my point was that I have nothing against Northwestern as such. My point is rather simple, NU isn't "big" as in Big Ten. It's enrollment is about a quarter of the U of I, and it is also the only private university among state universities.

Secondly, it is rather less important how the university ranks as a whole than in the department that one chooses to study. If one is planning to be an engineer, especially one of the engineering specialties, the U of I may be in top 5, while in other departments it may rank much lower. So, if one were ranking schools it is important to specify what one wants to rank. Even the people who construct the ARWU survey admit that it is impossible to be precise in evaluating universities, so I wouldn't hang my hat on any of these numbers as the final word, or number as the case may be. The rankings are only indications, not the "Ten Commandments."

[SteveWeiss]

Originally Posted by EdgyInChina

Don't they teach anything at UI anymore.. or do all students just play football and basketball now-a-days?
Oppenheimer (from Cal-Berkeley no less) led the team that developed the bomb, not Fermi as others have indicated. He also worked hard to develop the US Atomic Energy Commission and controls to limit the spread of nuclear weapons. But that is NOT on topic...

Sorry....

Get schooled... it's educational.

Some people like to modify history to suit their agendas. It happens all the time. It's called revisionism.

[OrangeFever]

There are 9 states represented at present--Nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota, Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. Add Notre Dame and Rutgers, and maybe Pitt, and we've got 10 states and 15 teams. Then I guess we have no choice but to make #16 Syracuse, or Cincinnati or Western Michigan. That's for another day.

In seriousness, the name of the conference need never change and probably will never change, regardless of its makeup or number of teams. It's always been the Big Ten and it can continue under that name regardless of the number of teams or states represented.

[Groundhogday]

Originally Posted by SteveWeiss

Sorry GHD. When I just now Googled the university rankings I found the one that averages the ARWU, Newsweek (not US News and World Report), and Higher Education surveys, and in that ranking Northwestern is #30 and U of I #25 globally. Not a lot to choose between them, and my point was that I have nothing against Northwestern as such. My point is rather simple, NU isn't "big" as in Big Ten. It's enrollment is about a quarter of the U of I, and it is also the only private university among state universities.

Secondly, it is rather less important how the university ranks as a whole than in the department that one chooses to study. If one is planning to be an engineer, especially one of the engineering specialties, the U of I may be in top 5, while in other departments it may rank much lower. So, if one were ranking schools it is important to specify what one wants to rank. Even the people who construct the ARWU survey admit that it is impossible to be precise in evaluating universities, so I wouldn't hang my hat on any of these numbers as the final word, or number as the case may be. The rankings are only indications, not the "Ten Commandments."

For an individual looking for a graduate program, of course you look at the rankings of individual programs. For a university looking to add a member institution to the CIC, you look at the overall research quality of the potential member.

No the ARWU isn't perfect. But you are completely missing the key point. The ARWU is attempting to evaluate the research quality of universities. The US News is NOT. So in addition to not being perfect, the US News is adding up how many apples are in an institution when what the Big Ten cares about are the number of oranges. While the ARWU doesn't provide a perfect measure of oranges, at least it is measuring the correct fruit.

Undergraduate institutions do care about the US News rankings. Research universities don't.

So repeat after me, the Big Ten members care about research, not undergraduate rankings.

[Majinga]

Why are we arguing about this again? Northwestern leaving the Big Ten? Not going to happen so what's the point?
As for rankings, I like this ranking. It has Illinois at number 16 in the world!

http://www.globaluniversitiesranking...d=96&Itemid=54

[SteveWeiss]

Originally Posted by Majinga

Why are we arguing about this again? Northwestern leaving the Big Ten? Not going to happen so what's the point?
As for rankings, I like this ranking. It has Illinois at number 16 in the world!

http://www.globaluniversitiesranking...d=96&Itemid=54

Nice find. I looked and I looked, but I couldn't find Northwestern. Did you find it? It just shows you how much these rankings vary. In any case, though I assume that Northwestern will remain in the "Big Ten" until the end of time, I personally do not consider it "Big" no matter when it joined or how high or low its ranking may be. If an outsider looked at the Big Ten members not knowing the history of the organization, I can only guess that his reaction would be, "How did Northwestern get associated with these others schools?"

[TellMeRonDA]

Originally Posted by SteveWeiss

Nice find. I looked and I looked, but I couldn't find Northwestern. Did you find it? It just shows you how much these rankings vary. In any case, though I assume that Northwestern will remain in the "Big Ten" until the end of time, I personally do not consider it "Big" no matter when it joined or how high or low its ranking may be. If an outsider looked at the Big Ten members not knowing the history of the organization, I can only guess that his reaction would be, "How did Northwestern get associated with these others schools?"

[zpfled]

Originally Posted by SteveWeiss

Some people like to modify history to suit their agendas. It happens all the time. It's called revisionism.

Don't forget that most, if not all, of the people who originally wrote history books wrote the story to suit their own agendas. Happens all the time. It's called "The Winners Get to Write the History Books." Or something like that.

So-called "revisionism" is often simply going back and putting together a more accurate picture of what really happened.

Then, of course, there's people who just make up s*** to suit their own needs.

Sorry for the off-topic post, but I had to defend revisionism. Sometimes it's just good scholarship. I bet at Northwestern they have a good history department

[SteveWeiss]

Originally Posted by zpfled

Don't forget that most, if not all, of the people who originally wrote history books wrote the story to suit their own agendas. Happens all the time. It's called "The Winners Get to Write the History Books." Or something like that.

So-called "revisionism" is often simply going back and putting together a more accurate picture of what really happened.

Then, of course, there's people who just make up s*** to suit their own needs.

Sorry for the off-topic post, but I had to defend revisionism. Sometimes it's just good scholarship. I bet at Northwestern they have a good history department

Northwestern probably does have better history department as it is well-known for its liberal arts and less for its sciences and engineering.

When I speak of revisionism I refer to re-interpreting history from an ideological framework. Examples would be history written according to Marxism, Catholicism, etc. Unfortunately, history is not a science and is open to wide interpretation according to the ax that one seeks to grind. The history of science differs from history seen from a religious point of view. What, for example, was the cause of either of the World Wars? I doubt that there is an unchallenged consensus, but that is what makes it interesting and debatable. Then one can also create history like Forest Gump did in meeting several US Presidents, or like the Catholic Church did in putting together a bible from competing sources supported by numerous factions and editing works like those of Josephus. And one can't ignore those who have a conspiratorial view. It's all great fun.

[KBLEE]

Originally Posted by SteveWeiss

My point is rather simple, NU isn't "big" as in Big Ten. It's enrollment is about a quarter of the U of I, and it is also the only private university among state universities.

So - using this argument, we should just forget about Notre Dame all together because they only have a total undergrad / grad student population of 11K. :rolleyes:

[illinicb]

Originally Posted by 3G Illini

It is strange to think of the world without The Big Ten. The conference would like to retain the name, whether we can make sense out of it in the new configuration or not.

It is a well known brand name that will not be changed regardless of the number of members.

[katu06]

Originally Posted by Groundhogday

--At present there is really no conversation between the Big Ten and Notre Dame. We are likely to stay at 12 for a number of years. If Notre Dame ever expressed an interest, the Big Ten would then look at an expansion to 14 teams.

I really hope this is true, I'm quite happy with 12 members of our conference.

[weasel88]

Originally Posted by KBLEE

So - using this argument, we should just forget about Notre Dame all together because they only have a total undergrad / grad student population of 11K. :rolleyes:

+1

Bazinga!!

[katu06]

Originally Posted by SteveWeiss

I don't know how reliable these rankings are. According to the 2010 "US News and World Report" rankings, Duke is 10, Northwestern is 12, and U of I is 39th. Even Notre Dame is ranked higher than the U of I. I suppose that there are as many rankings as there are ranking surveys. Anyway, my point never was that Northwestern isn't highly rated academically, and anyone who said so misrepresented me. My point was that it is small and private which is dissimiliar to the rest of the schools.

You must be joking

[borange]

I am just wondering how long you guys can argue about this. Same thing over and over and over and over and over and over. I am not complaining, just saying.

[TellMeRonDA]

Originally Posted by borange

I am just wondering how long you guys can argue about this. Same thing over and over and over and over and over and over. I am not complaining, just saying.

guess there's nothing more interesting to talk about than this irrelevance

[Illini88]

Originally Posted by borange

I am just wondering how long (this argument can go on). Same thing over and over and over and over and over and over. I am not complaining, just saying.

Welcome to the boards at Illinois Loyalty!

Long-running arguments with little or no relevance to the topic at hand (or to any topic under the sun) are our specialty here!!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: