Political Civility

[ijustkrushalot]

Originally Posted by IlliniAmy

And just how many duels took place? Yes, the Hamilton-Burr duel is romanticized and there were others, but they weren't prevalent.

certainly moreso than now... Duels certainly existed in the 1700's and 1800's, something that is all but extinct now.... that alone should be proof enough.

frankly, for all the shouting and whining, this last decade is probably on the low side of how poisoned political discourse has been in the country since our founding... the fact we haven't had a high profile assassination or minor rebellion of note for many years makes this a pretty calm time.

The Founding Fathers were hardly a benevolent group of like minded individuals who bequeathed us a nation, they had tons of fights and the constitution was the result of a lot of compromise meant to try and sustain some semblance of a union.

Debates like federalism vs. state rights, the limits of religion within our government (whether we are a christian nation or a nation founded on christian principals), what taxes can be levied, etc... have been going on since the days we first talked about Articles of Confederation. The role, scope, intent, and limits of the Federal Government under the Constitution has been debated since day one... each of the people who ratified the damn thing had different opinions on what it meant (which is why I find strict constructionists to be boring)

I don't condone Beck's evening in the park being ruined, but some hack who made a career out of accusing anyone he could of being fascists, communists, or traitors for the sole purpose of inflating his ego and lining his pockets getting wine dumped on him is hardly the end of our society.

That said, the people who did that should be ashamed of themselves.

[KBLEE]

Originally Posted by ijustkrushalot

The role, scope, intent, and limits of the Federal Government under the Constitution has been debated since day one... each of the people who ratified the damn thing had different opinions on what it meant (which is why I find strict constructionists to be boring)

I've been called worse...

[IlliniAmy]

Originally Posted by ijustkrushalot

I don't condone Beck's evening in the park being ruined, but some hack who made a career out of accusing anyone he could of being fascists, communists, or traitors for the sole purpose of inflating his ego and lining his pockets getting wine dumped on him is hardly the end of our society.

And it's attitudes like this that contribute to the violent behavior.

[ijustkrushalot]

Originally Posted by IlliniAmy

And it's attitudes like this that contribute to the violent behavior.

I agree, hacks who gin up fake tears to get ratings and hint at open rebellion against democratically elected officials to sell books contribute greatly

[IlliniAmy]

Originally Posted by ijustkrushalot

I agree, hacks who gin up fake tears to get ratings and hint at open rebellion against democratically elected officials to sell books contribute greatly

The "it's to be expected" mentality is to what I'm referring.

Why should we make that acceptable?

[ijustkrushalot]

Originally Posted by IlliniAmy

The "it's to be expected" mentality is to what I'm referring.

Why should we make that acceptable?

I'm sorry, I assumed you read what I said, clearly you only skimmed it...

the line below what you quoted said:

That said, the people who did that should be ashamed of themselves.

and I suppose I should remind you that the passage you did quote quite clearly stated, in the first 10 words, that I don't find it acceptable.

I had two points:

1.) Most of my post was about how I think its outright false to say that the political discourse these days is particularly poisonous or out of control, especially based on this incident. We have our differences, and the debate manifests itself in stupid ways, but I'm not convinced that we are in some particularly trying time.
2.) given his career, its hardly surprising that people are mad a him.

that said, people should be better than that, and better than him... I have very little use for any of the characters in this particular farce.

[pizzaman]

Originally Posted by DaytonIllini

One - I don't believe that Conservatives have open hatred for individual Liberals

Probably because liberals are so damn lovable?

[jmontgo3]

Why does the behavior of some people in a park in New York have any bearing on our nation's political discourse?

[KBLEE]

Originally Posted by jmontgo3

Why does the behavior of some people in a park in New York have any bearing on our nation's political discourse?

Exactly - our nation is full of idiots. This isn't a new revelation...

[illinirazorback]

Originally Posted by DaytonIllini

I too disagree for different reasons.

One - I don't believe that Conservatives have open hatred for individual Liberals and I doubt that a liberal talk show host would even be recognized by a Conservative crowd. If they were, Conservatives are more pleasant people in general than Liberals. Conservatives have open hatred of liberal ideas but not generally the people that espouse them. Does anyone really think that Jon Stewart or Bill Maher would be accosted at a movie in central Kansas?

Two - Our nation has always been uncivil. A close study of history will find that our current election process is far more genteel than it used to be. With the exception of the Leave it to Beaver 50's, it has always been common for gross lies and exaggerations to be hurled by one party against the other. This culminated in the most uncivil event in US history, the Civil War.

This. Yes the Civil War was about State's Rights, but it was certainly very uncivil. Plus, it's only the Civil War up here. Remember down south it's still "The War Between the States" or "The War of Northern Aggression"....

[illinirazorback]

Originally Posted by ijustkrushalot

I don't condone Beck's evening in the park being ruined, but some hack who made a career out of accusing anyone he could of being fascists, communists, or traitors for the sole purpose of inflating his ego and lining his pockets getting wine dumped on him is hardly the end of our society.

Hmm. I didn't realize that Media Matters had a biography on Beck that you studied so well.

[uiba99]

Originally Posted by DaytonIllini

I too disagree for different reasons.

One - I don't believe that Conservatives have open hatred for individual Liberals and I doubt that a liberal talk show host would even be recognized by a Conservative crowd. If they were, Conservatives are more pleasant people in general than Liberals. Conservatives have open hatred of liberal ideas but not generally the people that espouse them.

Dayton, I think you need to spend more time on conservative message boards. What they say about individuals, whether they are liberal posters or prominent politicians, frightens me.

Let's be honest....extremists who hide behind screen names can be as openly hateful as they want. Thus is the "beauty" of the internet. But to say that conservatives don't have open hatred for individual liberals....come on. Both sides have all sorts of terrible, anonymous people who have very little ability to treat their political adversaries with anything but contempt. And sometimes we see that anonymous hatred espoused in random speeches on the House floor or in campaign ads.

And I just don't get the bolded statement. Did you take a poll? I have friends of both political persuasions and I find them all quite pleasant to be around.

[DaytonIllini]

Originally Posted by uiba99

Dayton, I think you need to spend more time on conservative message boards. What they say about individuals, whether they are liberal posters or prominent politicians, frightens me.

Let's be honest....extremists who hide behind screen names can be as openly hateful as they want. Thus is the "beauty" of the internet. But to say that conservatives don't have open hatred for individual liberals....come on. Both sides have all sorts of terrible, anonymous people who have very little ability to treat their political adversaries with anything but contempt. And sometimes we see that anonymous hatred espoused in random speeches on the House floor or in campaign ads.

And I just don't get the bolded statement. Did you take a poll? I have friends of both political persuasions and I find them all quite pleasant to be around.

I only threw that bolded part in there to tweak the liberals. You know that I am not overly fond of either group in a wholesale way and that both have their kooks. Lovely in the singular, not so much in the plural.

If you want a civil society, you just need to frequent the libertarian boards.

[Illest]

Originally Posted by IlliniAmy

The Civil War, despite it's name, had nothing to do with civility and everything to do with state's rights.

Not to sidetrack the thread, but the Civil War was caused by the fear of southern states that the nation would abolish slavery. I have never understood how having legalized slavery could be described as a "right" of states.

As for the civility of political discourse today, it has certainly been worse at times in the past, but it's also been better. Through most of the Cold War, the approval ratings of a president would be about 30 points higher in his own party than in the opposition. That discrepancy has ballooned in recent years. It's possible that this just reflects that parties represent more ideologically cohesive groups today, but I think there's more to it.

[IlliniAmy]

Originally Posted by Illest

Not to sidetrack the thread, but the Civil War was caused by the fear of southern states that the nation would abolish slavery. I have never understood how having legalized slavery could be described as a "right" of states.

I am as anti-slavery as anyone, but I believe the southern states had the right to secede from the union. The north attacked to force them back into the union.

[illinirazorback]

Woman Seated Near Beck at Movie Claims Innocence…But What Does Twitter Tell Us…

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/woma...itter-tell-us/

Whole thing was fake, huh? Seems not.

[KBLEE]

^Not the brightest bulb, eh?

Darn technology...

[DaytonIllini]

That was kind of funny reading through it. Probably this whole internet thing was a bad idea.

[ill07]

Originally Posted by illinirazorback

Woman Seated Near Beck at Movie Claims Innocence…But What Does Twitter Tell Us…

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/woma...itter-tell-us/

Whole thing was fake, huh? Seems not.

I wouldn't say that it proves that it wasn't accidental; it could have been cosmic coincidence. It does, however, seem mighty suspicious...

I gotta say though, I have to take issue with Beck (more than I already do), when he says "All I wanted to do is go out on a blanket . . . and sit around Americans"

Really dude? What does it matter who you sit next to at a movie in the park? Do you refuse to hang out ever with anyone who is not American?

I have great pride in my country, but this strikes me as ridiculous, and does not really help his cause when it comes to claims of being xenophobic...

I feel like this manner of speaking is intended to present an image of hyper-patriotism. But it's really not patriotic at all.

[illinirazorback]

Originally Posted by ill07

I wouldn't say that it proves that it wasn't accidental; it could have been cosmic coincidence. It does, however, seem mighty suspicious...

I gotta say though, I have to take issue with Beck (more than I already do), when he says "All I wanted to do is go out on a blanket . . . and sit around Americans"

Really dude? What does it matter who you sit next to at a movie in the park? Do you refuse to hang out ever with anyone who is not American?

I have great pride in my country, but this strikes me as ridiculous, and does not really help his cause when it comes to claims of being xenophobic...

I feel like this manner of speaking is intended to present an image of hyper-patriotism. But it's really not patriotic at all.

So, by the fact that he said that somehow makes it unacceptable for him to be there? I think you're just looking for a reason to hate on him for this. In fact, I think just about everybody who hates on Beck just digs for crap to pin on him. You dislike his views, fine. Lots of people like his views and think he's right, even if over the top at times.

Again, none of this has anything to do with the man's right to sit in the park.

[DaytonIllini]

Originally Posted by illinirazorback

So, by the fact that he said that somehow makes it unacceptable for him to be there? I think you're just looking for a reason to hate on him for this. In fact, I think just about everybody who hates on Beck just digs for crap to pin on him. You dislike his views, fine. Lots of people like his views and think he's right, even if over the top at times.

Again, none of this has anything to do with the man's right to sit in the park.

I agree. He uses the term Americans to represent the common man. If he said common man, he would get ripped. If he said 'people like me' they would call him a racist.

Ultimately the man is a promoter and hyperbolic and see the world a little differently that I do. That said I have listened to him a few times on XM radio. A lot of what he says makes sense.

I do know one thing. I would way rather sit with him than that pseudo-intellectual that wrote the letter exonerating herself.

[OlivetNaz]

Originally Posted by illinirazorback

Again, none of this has anything to do with the man's right to sit in the park.

I'll agree with you there...however...if one doesn't act civil toward others of differing viewpoints, then they cannot expect civil behavior to be returned to them.

Unfortunately for Beck, he has only himself to blame for the recent situation as his over-the-top stuff comes across to a LOT of people as hateful and, at times, degrading and insulting. He could make the same points without alienating those of differing viewpoints, I think - but then he'd lose some of his core audience.

All of that, however, does not excuse the crackheads who decided it would be a good idea to try and ruin what was probably intended as a peaceful and relaxing family evening for them.

[DaytonIllini]

Originally Posted by OlivetNaz

I'll agree with you there...however...if one doesn't act civil toward others of differing viewpoints, then they cannot expect civil behavior to be returned to them.

Unfortunately for Beck, he has only himself to blame for the recent situation as his over-the-top stuff comes across to a LOT of people as hateful and, at times, degrading and insulting. He could make the same points without alienating those of differing viewpoints, I think - but then he'd lose some of his core audience.

All of that, however, does not excuse the crackheads who decided it would be a good idea to try and ruin what was probably intended as a peaceful and relaxing family evening for them.

Any examples? I know he hates progressivism and socialism. Has he employed hate speech against groups of people though?

[ill07]

Originally Posted by illinirazorback

So, by the fact that he said that somehow makes it unacceptable for him to be there?

Sorry, I must have missed where I said that. I thought I made it pretty clear that it was an aside. I'm not looking for a reason to hate on him at all...

I just found it ironic, given that this is a thread about political civility, and IMO, that highlights a symptom of Beck's incivility.

Never said he didn't have a right not to be assaulted...

[ill07]

Originally Posted by DaytonIllini

Any examples? I know he hates progressivism and socialism. Has he employed hate speech against groups of people though?

I don't think hate speech against groups of people is necessary for people to think what he says is hateful. I think his nonstop "Nazi" fingerpointing is pretty obscene.