Joe Paterno, others covered up Jerry Sandusky abuse of children, Penn State Freeh report says

[IntenselyOrange]

Originally Posted by ctblaisdell83

I'm thinking what Paterno did was worse. The really damning part of the Freeh report is that PSU officals (including Paterno) acted to suppress information in order to protect the school's reputation. McQueary didn't intervene with Sandusky but did report to his boss.

I think Paterno is far more culpable

If you want to say worse, I won't argue. I had that initially, and replaced it with "as bad as".

[illinied]

Pete, et al were choir boys compared with this. DP!

[Thacher_H_Guild]

Originally Posted by Groundhogday

As much as I would like to see PSU punished, I think this would set a bad precedent. We really don't want the NCAA stepping into another area of enforcement. Lord only knows how they might use something like this to expand and abuse their powers in the future.

I actually think a clear line could be drawn. If you have an athletic department trying to cover up crimes for the athletes, that is not the NCAA's business unless it also involved recruiting or other violations. But when the larger university administration in involved in trying to hide crimes that are clearly connected to the athletic program, then it is the institution being controlled by the athletic program and worth investigating.

I also found the NCAA's response to be interesting and kind of savvy. They said:

“Like everyone else, we are reviewing the final report for the first time today. As President Emmert wrote in his November 17th letter to Penn State President Rodney Erickson and reiterated this week, the university has four key questions, concerning compliance with institutional control and ethics policies, to which it now needs to respond. Penn State’s response to the letter will inform our next steps, including whether or not to take further action. We expect Penn State’s continued cooperation in our examination of these issues.”

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/...+on+penn+state

I added the bold. I would read this as a message to Penn State that is essentially translated as, "Please take some kind of action to punish your football program because we do not really want to have to make the call about getting involved."

They are in a tight spot because, obviously, they believe they have the right to take further action in this matter, and they probably will look "spineless" if they do nothing. Yet, it is completely new ground too, and they surely must know that if they act, then some people will criticize them for overstepping their authority. If PSU were to do something substantial in response, that would take the NCAA off the hook. My guess is they really do not want any part of this, but also don't want to be seen as looking the other way and letting Penn State football go on with business as usual.

[Thacher_H_Guild]

The best solution I've seen to the Paterno statue was a comment I saw online in which somebody said "I think they should leave the Paterno statue up, but turn it so he's looking the other way."

Can't find the link now, but I think that would be fitting...

[Dan]

Does anyone remember the gool ol' days when the NCAA simply threw down a Lack of Institutional Control upon a school when it suited them? I mean today you've got lawyers going word-for-word debating the meaning of rule, and many think that under the precise definition Penn State shouldn't get a LOIC in only the worst football scandal ever. Yes, I'm still bitter..but seriously.

[Thacher_H_Guild]

Originally Posted by Dan

Does anyone remember the gool ol' days when the NCAA simply threw down a Lack of Institutional Control upon a school when it suited them? I mean today you've got lawyers going word-for-word debating the meaning of rule, and many think that under the precise definition Penn State shouldn't get a LOIC in only the worst football scandal ever. Yes, I'm still bitter..but seriously.

Yeah, I remember those days.

I also think the NCAA has the ability to punish Penn State in this case, even if the lawyers say it's not technically LOIC. Say the NCAA slaps them with some penalty, how is it going to look if Penn State sues the NCAA in those circumstances? Not only would they be guilty of having the worth football scandal ever, but they would be seen as completely unrepentant about it. My guess is that if the NCAA did act, Penn State would shut up and take it. Others would think the NCAA overreached, but I don't think Penn State would be dumb enough to fight that.

[illinicb]

Originally Posted by DaytonIllini

I am no lawyer so I don't know if we can do anything but as to why we should.

You need to make a statement. You need to show the world that this is so deplorable that it will not be tolerated. You need to set a bar so that anyone in the future considering covering something like this up recoils at the very thought of it.

I agree with that (assuming it can be done) because something similar may be going on RIGHT NOW somewhere else. Maybe in football. Maybe in youth hockey. Maybe in Boy Scouts. Maybe at band camp. Maybe anywhere. if it makes ANY of us a little more diligent, then I think the message would be great. IMHO, the molesters themselves aren't going to change because in my uneducated view, they can't. They aren't going to stop if they think they'll get caught, they will just try harder to hide it. Those that suspect it certainly can bring it up in an effort to stop it. i'm guessing that police or some agency responds to such reports fairly quickly. i hope I'm not wrong.

[illinicb]

Originally Posted by Dan

Does anyone remember the gool ol' days when the NCAA simply threw down a Lack of Institutional Control upon a school when it suited them? I mean today you've got lawyers going word-for-word debating the meaning of rule, and many think that under the precise definition Penn State shouldn't get a LOIC in only the worst football scandal ever. Yes, I'm still bitter..but seriously.

Dan, there may be a person or two on this forum that recall the willy nilly use of the LIC. I heard someone on the radio today basically say there was no lack of institutional control ar PSU. Anything but. They had total control of the situation to suit themselves and their reputations. A little less control and we might have heard about it earlier.

[Sure Shot]

Originally Posted by DaytonIllini

I am no lawyer so I don't know if we can do anything but as to why we should.

You need to make a statement. You need to show the world that this is so deplorable that it will not be tolerated. You need to set a bar so that anyone in the future considering covering something like this up recoils at the very thought of it. To allow PSU to be 'business as usual' while punishing schools for paying for a kid's lunch while off campus or visiting a coach's home while a junior or getting one too many cell phone calls sends a message that the NCAA is a grotesque parody of a governing body.

If you haven't gotten that message yet, I think you need to check your inbox.

And there aren't any lawyers at the NCAA either. At least to the extent that what they do is not legal work. They are an accountability-free cartel, don't go around thinking limits like due process apply to them, no one should realize they don't more than Illinois fans.

But as to your substantive point, I agree that we want there to be deterrence here. But there is no better deterrence than sending Curley, Schultz and Spanier off to jail and tarnishing the legacy of Paterno. To say nothing of Sandusky spending his final years behind bars, which is the real justice here.

To punish the program going forward would be to harm people who were helpless bystanders, and in some cases victims, of this whole sorry affair. And worse than that, IMO, it would reinforce the rotten, backwards perception that caused this whole thing in the first place, that this isn't about football. The NCAA stepping in makes it about football, and however well-intentioned, that should be the last place the focus should be.

Don't worry about the resumption of "business as usual" at PSU. The business we've known is gone and it's never coming back.

[Hoppy2105]

On the one hand, I agree that those players and coaches now that had nothing to do with it shouldn't be punished.

But on the other hand, to simply clean out the top floors of the administration and go about with life seems like it isn't enough.

To show the rest of the schools that they can get out of such a morally deplorable and corrupt situation by knocking a few people out the door sends the wrong message. Sure, one could argue that firing/imprisoning certain people would cripple the program by itself. Maybe teams lose more, maybe all athletics hurt because a bad AD was hired, maybe a new president just isn't good and runs the institution into the ground. But we can't wait for that to happen as it may never come.

Even after PSU cleaned house, they didn't have to automatically go digging through the bottom of the barrel to find a potentially good coach, and four star recruits are still sending in their verbals. I'm sure the new AD and President are no slouches but I have no real proof of it. So really what I see is "Big name school/program does something bad, a few bad people are gone, other big time winners and up and comers fill in to replace them, keep on going." That doesn't seem to be the climate I would want for my child to be a part of. Where accountability is only based on hindsight and is a day late and a dollar (several dollars) short.

PSU did something bad, so PSU should be punished. And all those who still WANT to be a part of it, should have to put forth the effort to rebuild it into a beacon of light as opposed to whatever it is now. They need to have the character and fortitude to stick with something that will be tough but rewarding when they can get it back to a place of glory and greatness.

Those who do not want to deal with all that effort will not be punished, and may transfer freely to play their next season or will be let out of verbals/commitments/contracts.

Punishments could be monetary, like less home games for a couple years. No scholarships for a year( and then earning them back year by year) or simply fewer each year for a long period of time. Post season bans are also the rage right now. These are simply football punishments so other ideas will need to come up to punish the entire institution (I just don't know how one does that or what is a legal punishment). And yes, the football punishments need to happen. The root cause of the cover up seems to revolve around the football program from may different points of view. To say this isn't a football issue is similar to saying that the Civil War's root cause wasn't slavery.

[JSpence]

Originally Posted by DaytonIllini

If an astronomy professor committed a heinous crime and his department head uncovered it, reported it to the police and the professor was jailed rather than protected by tenure it would not be an astronomy story. The national astronomy group would not be talking about sanctions against the school.

OTOH, imagine an astronomy professor commits the same crime. His department head conspires to cover up that crime with the head of security for the school and the president of the school. As a result dozens of other victims occur. I think you can then make a case that a national body should review the entire department's worthiness to exist.

It isn't that Sandusky was a football coach that makes this a football story. It is that he remained a coach. His head coach knew what was going on. They administration knew. The watched this guy bring young boys to PSU off campus events.

IMO, there is no way that Paterno did not look at Sandusky bringing young boys to banquets and NOT know what was going to happen to that kid that evening. That makes him an accomplice to the crime in my opinion.

The team should be dismantled and if the NCAA or PSU won't do it, the Big Ten should.

Much more succinctly said - this is how I feel. Those responsible for reporting it (the head coach!) covered it up. It's only _not_ an institutional or football program if you think the head coach isn't responsible for those working or playing for him.

Originally Posted by illinicb

I totally agree on Paterno. There is no way he couldn't have known or strongly suspected and to do nothing in either case would likely have led to criminal charges I'm guessing.

As for NCAA or Big Ten actions against PSU, I'm still not convinced what grounds they would have for anything. On an emotional basis I assume almost everyone would like to see some kind of penalty, but i'm not sure on what basis or what good it would do other than a very small step in making "us" feel better. If the BTN chosing not to show the press conference yesterday is any reflection on the level of courage at the head of the conference, I wouldn't expect to see much action unless they think it will cost them dollars in sponsorship money or the like.

The grounds we're trying to establish is that Penn State had (presumably had) a reporting structure and code of ethics in place. When things weren't reported, it was a systemic failure. The institution did not act according to its own policies.

The system failed to protect the kids.

[JSpence]

Originally Posted by IntenselyOrange

I don't know what shutting down PSU football would accomplish. Do they deserve it, of course. But any punishment that is used should have a goal. You can say that a strict punishment will stop this from happening in the future, but I'd be shocked to see a similar situation happen in the future. I think the cautionary tale is told at this point. Places like Nebraska, Notre Dame, Alabama, etc., where a sport runs the school will be more careful given the way such culture has destroyed the PSU name.

You are right. How about no football camps in Happy Valley, sponsored by PSU, or conducted by PSU coaches or boosters for ten years?

This can include as many youth programs as the NCAA sees fit to protect the children without punishing them.

[Sure Shot]

There's an underlying current here. The attitude that if it doesn't affect the football team, it doesn't "matter".

If the football team isn't harmed, then PSU has "gotten away with it".

That's the myopia that got us here.

[illinicb]

Originally Posted by JSpence

The grounds we're trying to establish is that Penn State had (presumably had) a reporting structure and code of ethics in place. When things weren't reported, it was a systemic failure. The institution did not act according to its own policies.

True enough. Is that an NCAA issue? In most issues before the NCAA, they relate to breaking NCAA rules and giving that school a competitive advantage over other schools. In this case, I'm not sure NCAA rules were broken not an advantage taken. In this case there was actual evidence about a crime not a broken rule. People have been and likely will be, dealt with through the legal process. In almost every NCAA investigation, not laws were broken, only rules.

Perhaps there are rules that were broken and the NCAA will step in. My guess is if they step in it will only be because they feel pressured to do so, not because of any sense of right or wrong or justice.

[Thacher_H_Guild]

Originally Posted by Sure Shot

There's an underlying current here. The attitude that if it doesn't affect the football team, it doesn't "matter".

If the football team isn't harmed, then PSU has "gotten away with it".

That's the myopia that got us here.

Um, it's not myopia. It's just recognizing that football is what is important to the culture that allowed this to happen. It's akin to taking away the car keys from a teenager who is caught speeding--it just makes sense to punish them in a manner that is clearly linked to the misdeed and with something they care about. If the only hit Penn State takes is to their general fund (due to civil suits), it's like punishing a bad teenage driver by saying something like "we are reducing your inheritance by 5%." It's too far removed symbolically and emotionally to have any impact and has no chance of inducing a reflective attitude about what has happened.

If people believe the Freeh report that the football culture was partly responsible for this not being revealed earlier, then something connected to that part of the university needs to be punished.

Ideally, that punishment will come from the Penn State community itself because that will show that somebody in authority there is taking a stand and saying "never again will football be so important that it takes priority over the safety of children." If some kind of punishment comes from the outside (say the NCAA), the instinct of the die hards will be to bemoan how they are being persecuted unfairly. FWIW, I think the fact that they commissioned the Freeh report in the first place and obviously really did give them free reign is a good sign. We will now see what Penn State does with this information.

[dansaint]

if I were in charge of discipline....I'd go the following

1 year....no team. Football disbanded for one year.

2nd year-no home games- no postseason- 35 scholorships rescinded

3rd year-no postseason-25 scholorships rescinded

4th year-no postseason-15 scholorships recinded

each year the NCAA does a surprise inspection on university. All records inspected.

It's ONLY that light because the administration that was around for the infractions is no longer in charge.

[256ILLINI]

35 scholarships? You only get 25 a year

[Groundhogday]

Originally Posted by Thacher_H_Guild

The best solution I've seen to the Paterno statue was a comment I saw online in which somebody said "I think they should leave the Paterno statue up, but turn it so he's looking the other way."

Can't find the link now, but I think that would be fitting...

:laugh::laugh:

[Sure Shot]

Originally Posted by Thacher_H_Guild

Um, it's not myopia. It's just recognizing that football is what is important to the culture that allowed this to happen. It's akin to taking away the car keys from a teenager who is caught speeding--it just makes sense to punish them in a manner that is clearly linked to the misdeed and with something they care about. If the only hit Penn State takes is to their general fund (due to civil suits), it's like punishing a bad teenage driver by saying something like "we are reducing your inheritance by 5%." It's too far removed symbolically and emotionally to have any impact and has no chance of inducing a reflective attitude about what has happened.

If people believe the Freeh report that the football culture was partly responsible for this not being revealed earlier, then something connected to that part of the university needs to be punished.

Ideally, that punishment will come from the Penn State community itself because that will show that somebody in authority there is taking a stand and saying "never again will football be so important that it takes priority over the safety of children." If some kind of punishment comes from the outside (say the NCAA), the instinct of the die hards will be to bemoan how they are being persecuted unfairly. FWIW, I think the fact that they commissioned the Freeh report in the first place and obviously really did give them free reign is a good sign. We will now see what Penn State does with this information.

Bad metaphor. The teenager would be Sandusky, Paterno, Schultz, Spanier, and Curley. And I'm pretty sure a few years behind bars will induce the "reflective attitude" you're looking for.

The team did nothing wrong, the fans did nothing wrong, the entire rest of the community, we hope, did nothing wrong. You want to punish them because Penn State is nothing but a football team to you. You want to harm the only image of that University that is cognizable. You want the part you can see to feel the pain, to bear the brunt of your anger. That's understandable, but it's also telling that the football team is the only thing that "counts" for you about Penn State.

We have to get rid of that mindset. That mindset is what ought to be punished. Penn State Football didn't harm a soul. A monster did, and some cowardly leaders let him because they thought that the only thing that "counted" was what happened to the football program. Don't think that way, that only validates the fears that PSU's administrators chose to succumb to rather than doing the right thing.

When it feels wrong seeing Penn State cheered on by 100,000 totally innocent fans, remind yourself what Schultz and Curley and Spanier are going to find out the hard way: It's just a game. It's not what really matters.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Sure Shot

The team did nothing wrong, the fans did nothing wrong, the entire rest of the community, we hope, did nothing wrong.

The classic knee-jerk argument that a school involved in any sort of college sports scandal or cheating should not be punished at all. You can hear this just about everyday on Finebaum.

But to directly address your statement- the head coach is part of the 'team', and the year 1998 happened (the earliest that we know of that JoePa knew what was going on).

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Sure Shot

Penn State Football didn't harm a soul.

Right out of the Paterno family playbook. In my personal opinion the Paterno family males are scumbags -- this is after careful examination of the media appearances of Scott & Jay Paterno, especially Jay Paterno on Thursday-wow. But if you're on board with team Paterno that's your business. Joe Paterno: 'This is not a football scandal'

Originally Posted by Sure Shot

When it feels wrong seeing Penn State cheered on by 100,000 totally innocent fans

Ah, you missed last year's Illinois @ Penn State game. It was 60,000 fans, and a lot of them were not perfect little innocent angels. (Not talking about the scandal here, but more in a human decency kinda a way.)

[Hoppy2105]

Before the Freeh report I would agree that the Football program should not be punished more than the changeover of the coach and the shame that they felt of just being a part of the whole scandal. If Paterno HAD heard of the issue once, reported it, assumed it was being taken care of and THEN simply stopped worrying about it, he would be negligent in an extreme case. He could have begged for forgiveness, accepted his firing, and went out with shame but with a hope of rebuilding his reputation/dignity.

But that wasn't the case. After he heard about it and passed it up the chain, not only did he start looking the other way, he actually had a hand in persuading people not to go to the authorities. Why?

To save his own reputation? Maybe but not likely, uncovering a child molester would probably get you accolade for stopping a monster.

Save Sandusky? Could be, because maybe he thought Sandusky could get help and in a fit of insanity forgot the victims needed help.

To further hurt the victims? Almost definitely no, but he surely never did anything to help.

To save the school reputation? Maybe but that shows a lack of foresight and ability to see a bigger picture in life.

Protect his team? Could be...I mean recruiting or attendance may have gone down. Who would want to play for Pedophile State University? And if I recall, PSU wasn't doing as hot as usual during the late 90s to early 2000s. So a scandal wouldn't help them get back on top.

I'm sure there is a combo of many things. But the bottom line is that the FOOTBALL coach had enough power and sway to dissuade his superiors and peers alike from doing anything about this issue. This basically made him and the team he coached (I mean if the team was crap and had nothing going for it, why would you listen to its coach) larger than the university and the victims. And that is why it is also a football problem.

[Clete1]

A few comments:

1) PSU had a culture that enabled the sacrifice of children to protect the football program. That culture needs to be changed, and that can't happpen if they continue to field a football team.

2) For years, the NCAA and its individual member institutions have been promoting themselves as being about more than ticket sales and TV money. They say they are about character, and creating leaders (it's BS, as we know). I believe the NCAA has a moral obligation to test the limits of their authority to punish Penn State. They need to drop the hammer on them and then fight it in the courts. They seem to have layed the groundwork for this with the 4 questions in the letter, all now definitively answered by the Freeh report.

3) The PSU trustees commissioned the Freeh report. They have an obligation to do what's best for the university as a whole and were not complicit in the cover up. Now that they have the report they need to act on it, recognizing the point in (1) above.

4) The Big Ten Network can give us wall to wall coverage of the Urban Meyer press conference, the annointment of another coaching demi-god, but when one of their member institutions is involved in perhaps the biggest sports story since the Munich Olympics they are "not a news organization". Cowards.

5) The Big Ten Conference has an obligation to put an end to Penn State football for the sake of the other member institutions. I don't need my alma mater to be complicit in perpetuating a culture that sanctioned the rape of children.

I have little faith that any of the above organizations will do the right thing, and when the PSU football team emerges from the tunnel in their season opener to the cheers of thousands of football crazy fans, it will be a gross obscenity.

[ctblaisdell83]

Originally Posted by Dan

Right out of the Paterno family playbook. In my personal opinion the Paterno family males are scumbags -- this is after careful examination of the media appearances of Scott & Jay Paterno, especially Jay Paterno on Thursday-wow. But if you're on board with team Paterno that's your business. Joe Paterno: 'This is not a football scandal'

Agree 100%, and posted similarly yesterday re: Paterno family reaction. I think it's pretty clear that a lot of the old guard PSU insiders still don't get it - with Jay Paterno as their flag carrier and ersatz spokesman.

Their message: 1) not a football issue, and 2) how can you erase all the good that JoePa and PSU football have done for humanity, just because of one admittably serious mistake (...and it wasn't Joe's fault).

Don't the PSU old guard realize that as long as they try to put PSU football in front of this massive scandal of crime and cover-up, they will continue to look like complete garbage?

[DaytonIllini]

Originally Posted by Sure Shot

Bad metaphor. The teenager would be Sandusky, Paterno, Schultz, Spanier, and Curley. And I'm pretty sure a few years behind bars will induce the "reflective attitude" you're looking for.

The team did nothing wrong, the fans did nothing wrong, the entire rest of the community, we hope, did nothing wrong. You want to punish them because Penn State is nothing but a football team to you. You want to harm the only image of that University that is cognizable. You want the part you can see to feel the pain, to bear the brunt of your anger. That's understandable, but it's also telling that the football team is the only thing that "counts" for you about Penn State.

We have to get rid of that mindset. That mindset is what ought to be punished. Penn State Football didn't harm a soul. A monster did, and some cowardly leaders let him because they thought that the only thing that "counted" was what happened to the football program. Don't think that way, that only validates the fears that PSU's administrators chose to succumb to rather than doing the right thing.

When it feels wrong seeing Penn State cheered on by 100,000 totally innocent fans, remind yourself what Schultz and Curley and Spanier are going to find out the hard way: It's just a game. It's not what really matters.

I believe he was making an analogy rather than using a metaphor but putting that aside, I disagree with the entirety of your post.

The program did do something wrong. It wasn't just the guy that died of cancer and his boss that failed. It was the entire culture there. A culture that would allow a school to be subservient to an octagenarian simply because he won football games. A culture that was unwilling to risk the thing in life that they hold most precious, football, for the thing in life that they should have held most precious, the safety of the community. A culture that TODAY continues to make excuses for the part the school played in the events and continues to believe that their coach was some innocent bystander and did all he should have/could have done.

That attitude needs to be utterly destroyed. They are unrepentant enablers of child rape. No penalty is too great for them and until they can admit their failing, see their role in this and publicly accept blame, they should have their most precious possession stripped from them.