2013 MLB Hall of Fame Ballot

dansaint · Nov 29, 2012, 02:28 PM

Sandy Alomar Jr.
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Jeff Cirillo
Royce Clayton
Roger Clemens
Jeff Conine
Steve Finley
Julio Franco
Shawn Green
Roberto Hernandez
Ryan Klesko
Kenny Lofton
Edgar Martinez
Don Mattingly
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Jose Mesa
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Rafael Palmeiro
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Reggie Sanders
Curt Schilling
Aaron Sele
Lee Smith
Sammy Sosa
Mike Stanton
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Todd Walker
David Wells
Rondell White
Bernie Williams
Woody Williams

The bolded are my 10 votes (voters get 10 votes on a ballot)

IntenselyOrange · Nov 30, 2012, 05:39 AM

Sandy Alomar Jr.
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Jeff Cirillo
Royce Clayton
Roger Clemens
Jeff Conine
Steve Finley
Julio Franco
Shawn Green
Roberto Hernandez
Ryan Klesko
Kenny Lofton
Edgar Martinez
Don Mattingly
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Jose Mesa
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Rafael Palmeiro
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Reggie Sanders
Curt Schilling
Aaron Sele
Lee Smith
Sammy Sosa
Mike Stanton
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Todd Walker
David Wells
Rondell White
Bernie Williams
Woody Williams

I'd only vote for 8 I guess, and I don't care about steroids. Note it in the museum that they were identified in a controversy, but we really don't know who did and didn't use steroids.

Three borderline guys that I don't think I would vote for are Schilling, Murphy, and Martinez.

dansaint · Nov 30, 2012, 06:34 AM

I think they belong in...but at the same time...I'd have to make a statement. I really don't care either...but at the same time...you have to make some kind of statement. I'd also want the steroid controversy mentioned on their plaque.

zoggle101 · Nov 30, 2012, 12:40 PM

Are we really going to say some of these guys who cheated to succeed should be put in a sports hall of fame. If you took steroids at any level your accomplishments arent yours. I don't care if it means just helping your high school football team to a state championship where in the big programs PED's are part of the tradition. Only in America(not really) can a person straight up cheat, look you in the face like they didn't, and actually think they earned their acclaim let alone profit oof of it. I guess in America we teach our kids that its ok to cheat if you don't get caught. We are already in trouble with our future and having guys like a few of these players as role models is not what I want for our society which is already one where people are rude and disrespectful to each other.

It's a slap in the face for any kids or men who played the game he right way.

I'm glad to see one of my all time favorite players on that list. Tim "Roc" Raines!!!

IntenselyOrange · Nov 30, 2012, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoggle101

Are we really going to say some of these guys who cheated to succeed should be put in a sports hall of fame. If you took steroids at any level your accomplishments arent yours. I don't care if it means just helping your high school football team to a state championship where in the big programs PED's are part of the tradition. Only in America(not really) can a person straight up cheat, look you in the face like they didn't, and actually think they earned their acclaim let alone profit oof of it. I guess in America we teach our kids that its ok to cheat if you don't get caught. We are already in trouble with our future and having guys like a few of these players as role models is not what I want for our society which is already one where people are rude and disrespectful to each other.

It's a slap in the face for any kids or men who played the game he right way.

I'm glad to see one of my all time favorite players on that list. Tim "Roc" Raines!!!

The problem is that you're assuming that you know who cheated. We don't. We know some of those that did, but not all. What do you do about guys with rumors such as Piazza and Bagwell? How do you account for the fact that we know nothing about what these guys were doing in HS and MiLB? There is no way to know. Therefore, let them in but add a note that they tested positive or were suspected users. If you think about it another way, it's like a scarlet letter warning for young children that go to the museum.

Also, where do we draw the line? Amphetamines? You know that guy "Roc" Raines is pretty famous for saying he slid head first because he had cocaine in his back pocket.

stevo99 · Nov 30, 2012, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IntenselyOrange

The problem is that you're assuming that you know who cheated. We don't. We know some of those that did, but not all. What do you do about guys with rumors such as Piazza and Bagwell? How do you account for the fact that we know nothing about what these guys were doing in HS and MiLB? There is no way to know. Therefore, let them in but add a note that they tested positive or were suspected users. If you think about it another way, it's like a scarlet letter warning for young children that go to the museum.

Also, where do we draw the line? Amphetamines? You know that guy "Roc" Raines is pretty famous for saying he slid head first because he had cocaine in his back pocket.

I'll go out on a limb and say cocaine isn't a PED.

I'll also predict that Schilling is getting in on the first ballot.

zoggle101 · Dec 4, 2012, 02:13 PM

Steroids and PEDs are more prevalent in our society now than ever. It's a guys way who doesn't have the genetics to achieve something his body isn't capable to do without them. I'm not saying these guys didn't have advanced coordination but it's still cheating unless everyone is doing it and for he same amount of time.

Steve, have you ever played a guy at ping pong on cocaine? It's a ped.

IntenselyOrange · Dec 5, 2012, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoggle101

Steroids and PEDs are more prevalent in our society now than ever. It's a guys way who doesn't have the genetics to achieve something his body isn't capable to do without them. I'm not saying these guys didn't have advanced coordination but it's still cheating unless everyone is doing it and for he same amount of time.

Steve, have you ever played a guy at ping pong on cocaine? It's a ped.

But my point is that far more guys used than we know of. Your post echos this. Therefore, in my opinion, it's silly to play morality police with the few guys who were caught.

IntenselyOrange · Dec 5, 2012, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo99

I'll go out on a limb and say cocaine isn't a PED.

I'll also predict that Schilling is getting in on the first ballot.

Maybe not, but it's illegal and is likely why Raines is being kept out. I think it's stupid just like I think the steroids argument is stupid because we don't know who else was using.

On Schilling, I agree. But I wouldn't vote for him. He wasn't nearly as good as he tells us all he is. Then again the Hall of Fame is quickly turning into the Hall of Good so maybe he does belong.

stevo99 · Dec 5, 2012, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IntenselyOrange

Maybe not, but it's illegal and is likely why Raines is being kept out. I think it's stupid just like I think the steroids argument is stupid because we don't know who else was using.

On Schilling, I agree. But I wouldn't vote for him. He wasn't nearly as good as he tells us all he is. Then again the Hall of Fame is quickly turning into the Hall of Good so maybe he does belong.

I agree that 's why Raines isn't in yet.

Thankfully, when you look at the trajectory of the vote for him, it's only a matter of time.

mattcoldagelli · Dec 5, 2012, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoggle101

If you took steroids at any level your accomplishments arent yours.

Whose are they?

zoggle101 · Dec 5, 2012, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattcoldagelli

Whose are they?

A false sense of achievement. If you cheat on a test to get a good grade do you go around bragging like you really accomplished anything? If you took any kind of PEDS than you disqualified yourself because once again you plain cheated. If its against the rules and you do it thinking its ok than you're only fulling yourself ultimately taking away the opportunity from someone who did it the right way. I feel said for the high school kids who have to compromise their integrity in any sport because their coaches plus fathers have to win at all costs.

I go to the gym and see guys who look in better shape than pro athletes that didn't even play sports in high school. It's getting out of hand to a certain extent if. If you are going to compete and have integrity don't cheat. If you want to look good for your partner than go for it just don't tell me how great you're when you have advantages others don't.

If you think it's ok to cheat Matt than I feel sorry for anyone who is influenced by you.

I guess it's wrong of me to say PEDS are cheating but I doubt anyone who hasn't cheated believes that.

SteakSandwich · Dec 6, 2012, 01:01 AM

Barry Bonds is one of the 5 best players ever before he started taking steroids. I can't blame him when he put up one of the best all-around years ever and gets 3rd place in MVP voting behind Mark and Sammy. So he shows everyone what a all-time great can do on steroids. You have to keep in mind that as a person i think barry is a arrogant !!!!!!! but he did take steroids so i'm on the fence cause i think him and clemons are the only two deserving of enshrinement. If they get in though steroids has to be mentioned.

IntenselyOrange · Dec 6, 2012, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoggle101

A false sense of achievement. If you cheat on a test to get a good grade do you go around bragging like you really accomplished anything? If you took any kind of PEDS than you disqualified yourself because once again you plain cheated. If its against the rules and you do it thinking its ok than you're only fulling yourself ultimately taking away the opportunity from someone who did it the right way. I feel said for the high school kids who have to compromise their integrity in any sport because their coaches plus fathers have to win at all costs.

I go to the gym and see guys who look in better shape than pro athletes that didn't even play sports in high school. It's getting out of hand to a certain extent if. If you are going to compete and have integrity don't cheat. If you want to look good for your partner than go for it just don't tell me how great you're when you have advantages others don't.

If you think it's ok to cheat Matt than I feel sorry for anyone who is influenced by you.

I guess it's wrong of me to say PEDS are cheating but I doubt anyone who hasn't cheated believes that.

I agree with everything you say. But the problem is still that we don't know who did and didn't use steroids. I can make a list of guys I don't think used steroids, but there is no way to know.

Your point about High School kids is important. I don't know how to deal with that aspect but I don't think eliminating Bonds from the Hall is the solution. Wouldn't a better solution be putting these guys in and having it noted on their plaque that they used steroids? Wouldn't that give parents an opportunity to speak to their children about the problem.

Additionally, we're talking about guys who used in MLB. Most of the guys that are caught are using in MiLB trying to get to the big leagues. It's kids in HS trying to make the varsity team. As you note, that is no less a degree of cheating yet I'd suspect you're letting a lot of guys off because they stopped using after they made it to MLB but still reaped the benefits from use earlier in life.

I don't condone the use of steroids, but I also doubt we know who did and didn't use so I'd rather just have the Hall address the situation directly.

mattcoldagelli · Dec 6, 2012, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoggle101

A false sense of achievement. If you cheat on a test to get a good grade do you go around bragging like you really accomplished anything? If you took any kind of PEDS than you disqualified yourself because once again you plain cheated. If its against the rules and you do it thinking its ok than you're only fulling yourself ultimately taking away the opportunity from someone who did it the right way. I feel said for the high school kids who have to compromise their integrity in any sport because their coaches plus fathers have to win at all costs.

I go to the gym and see guys who look in better shape than pro athletes that didn't even play sports in high school. It's getting out of hand to a certain extent if. If you are going to compete and have integrity don't cheat. If you want to look good for your partner than go for it just don't tell me how great you're when you have advantages others don't.

If you think it's ok to cheat Matt than I feel sorry for anyone who is influenced by you.

I guess it's wrong of me to say PEDS are cheating but I doubt anyone who hasn't cheated believes that.

When does your campaign to get all spitballers and signstealers purged from the HOF begin, and how can I follow your progress?

IntenselyOrange · Dec 7, 2012, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattcoldagelli

When does your campaign to get all spitballers and signstealers purged from the HOF begin, and how can I follow your progress?

You make a good point, and it's similar to the reason I mentioned cocaine although that does nothing to enhance performance.

People see steroids as an issue of morality and as something that affects young aspiring athletes. They see the trickle down of steroids as something that is weighing heavily on young people. They are right on this account, but I just don't see how keeping them out of the Hall helps this. It buries discussion rather than bringing it to the front. Putting a scarlet letter on someone is in many ways more demeaning and sends a stronger message than locking them in their house.

KBLEE · Jan 9, 2013, 12:08 PM

Stupid BBWAA elected NOBODY to the Hall (Biggio closest at 68%). Time for sweeping changes to this ridiculous process...

dansaint · Jan 9, 2013, 12:28 PM

Just announced that NO ONE got in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Why is it that these writers are given the right of being judge, jury, and executioner for these guys? Who made these guys GOD of the keyboard? A dying media gets to choose who gets in, when NOT A SINGLE PERSON gives a damn what they think UNTIL HOF season.

To me, it's a joke and these clowns...these "knights of the keyboard" beleive it's their right to say who and who doesn't get in. I mean, really?!

I can understand Bonds, Clemens, Sosa not getting in (although I still think they should....they never failed a test!)

They weanna talk about the integrity of the game:

What about the guys from the 60's and 70's who readily admitted taking amphetamines....which are PED's...PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS....they allowed them to stay on the field and complile numbers! Don't say there is a differece because...by the rule the writers go by...there isn't.

What about Gaylord Perry...who doctored a baseball and was admired for it!

It's a joke and maybe I'm a fool for actually caring about this..but my god...these idiot writers who basically no one knows nor gives a damn about get to dictate the history of the game...is a complete sham.

How do I change the process? I'm not saying it's perfect...but here's my idea:

I truly think that there should be a mandate that at least 2 guys from the modern era (wrtiers ballot...15 year limit) are elected. Keep the 75% threshold...but also say if no one reaches that....the top 2 vote getters are elected. That way...it does allow more than 2 getting in if they reach that limit...but set a floor of how many are elected.

I also ADD people to the voting process:

1. Baseball journalists/personalities. Not just writers of the BBWA...but also commentators and people who cover the game on a national level, baseball historians, and such. A guy like Bob Costas not having a vote is a joke. Costas knows more about hte game than a lot of people and to not allow him to have an official vote is a travesty.

2. Hall of Fame members. What club allows outsiders to have a full vote on who is allowed into their club? the living HOF members should have a say in who gets in.

3. Fans. Let the fans have a say in teh process. It is, after all, our game and I do believe the modern fan is a lot smarter than those in the 30's...they have seen these players and they know if they are worthy or not.

I'd do a breakdown of this...either an online vote or do it like the all star game where you do ballots at games.

The top 10 vote getters by the fans get the votes of the fan.

1st place gets 10 votes
2nd place gets 9 votes
etc, etc, etc/...

I'm not saying my idea is perfect...but I do think it's BETTER than the system now. You are still putting in guys who are WORTHY of the Hall of Fame. Why should writers, who are in a dying media get to be the ONLY voice?

It's a complete utter disgrace!

Sybok · Jan 9, 2013, 12:46 PM

How could Biggio not get in? That's ridiculous.

IntenselyOrange · Jan 9, 2013, 12:56 PM

I have no problem with there being years in which no one is inducted. I also am strongly opposed to a minimum that must be inducted each year. It's the Hall of Fame and if no one was integral enough to baseball history, than so be it.

That being said, this list was full of guys that must be discussed when discussing the game of baseball, even if you discount the guys that we know did PEDs. And the argument about some PEDs being acceptable and others not perfectly illustrates the lack of honesty within the voting contingent.

IntenselyOrange · Jan 9, 2013, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sybok

How could Biggio not get in? That's ridiculous.

A stupid, unwritten rule, about 1st ballot HOFers vs. regular HOFers. And then there's that whole, unanimous thing which will be ridiculous in a couple of years when Maddux has some idiot vote against him.

dansaint · Jan 9, 2013, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IntenselyOrange

A stupid, unwritten rule, about 1st ballot HOFers vs. regular HOFers. And then there's that whole, unanimous thing which will be ridiculous in a couple of years when Maddux has some idiot vote against him.

Next year's ballot is insane:

Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Frank Thomas
Jeff Kent

You can only vote for 10 guys....and next year they'll be about 15-20 who are no brainers

IlliniSteve · Jan 9, 2013, 01:33 PM

Complete joke that Biggio didn't make it in.

I'm not a big believer in punishing these guys after they went an entire career without any kind of punishment from the MLB.

IntenselyOrange · Jan 9, 2013, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dansaint

Next year's ballot is insane:

Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Frank Thomas
Jeff Kent

You can only vote for 10 guys....and next year they'll be about 15-20 who are no brainers

I'm not sure on Mussina and Kent, but if any of Maddux, Thomas, and Glavine don't get in they should just set fire to the Hall. Jim Rice is in the stupid Hall but Biggio, Bagwell, Raines, Whitaker, etc., etc., are not? What a joke.

dansaint · Jan 9, 2013, 01:46 PM

which is why I feel taking the vot solely out of the writers hands (who have admittiedly said they don't vote for people just because of personal dislike for them) and letting other people vote.

Still think the fans, baseball broadcasters/personalities/media and the HOF living members should have a say in the process as well and do a mass pool of votes

Nov 29, 2012, 02:28 PM	#1
dansaint Location: Middletown, IL Posts: 850	Sandy Alomar Jr. Jeff Bagwell Craig Biggio Barry Bonds Jeff Cirillo Royce Clayton Roger Clemens Jeff Conine Steve Finley Julio Franco Shawn Green Roberto Hernandez Ryan Klesko Kenny Lofton Edgar Martinez Don Mattingly Fred McGriff Mark McGwire Jose Mesa Jack Morris Dale Murphy Rafael Palmeiro Mike Piazza Tim Raines Reggie Sanders Curt Schilling Aaron Sele Lee Smith Sammy Sosa Mike Stanton Alan Trammell Larry Walker Todd Walker David Wells Rondell White Bernie Williams Woody Williams The bolded are my 10 votes (voters get 10 votes on a ballot) __________________ YOUR 2012 ILLINOIS LOYALTY FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!!!!!!

Nov 30, 2012, 06:34 AM	#3
dansaint Location: Middletown, IL Posts: 850	I think they belong in...but at the same time...I'd have to make a statement. I really don't care either...but at the same time...you have to make some kind of statement. I'd also want the steroid controversy mentioned on their plaque. __________________ YOUR 2012 ILLINOIS LOYALTY FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!!!!!!

Nov 30, 2012, 12:40 PM	#4
zoggle101 Location: Spfld, IL Posts: 4,410	Are we really going to say some of these guys who cheated to succeed should be put in a sports hall of fame. If you took steroids at any level your accomplishments arent yours. I don't care if it means just helping your high school football team to a state championship where in the big programs PED's are part of the tradition. Only in America(not really) can a person straight up cheat, look you in the face like they didn't, and actually think they earned their acclaim let alone profit oof of it. I guess in America we teach our kids that its ok to cheat if you don't get caught. We are already in trouble with our future and having guys like a few of these players as role models is not what I want for our society which is already one where people are rude and disrespectful to each other. It's a slap in the face for any kids or men who played the game he right way. I'm glad to see one of my all time favorite players on that list. Tim "Roc" Raines!!! Last edited by zoggle101; Nov 30, 2012 at 12:44 PM.

Jan 9, 2013, 12:28 PM	#18
dansaint Location: Middletown, IL Posts: 850	Just announced that NO ONE got in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Why is it that these writers are given the right of being judge, jury, and executioner for these guys? Who made these guys GOD of the keyboard? A dying media gets to choose who gets in, when NOT A SINGLE PERSON gives a damn what they think UNTIL HOF season. To me, it's a joke and these clowns...these "knights of the keyboard" beleive it's their right to say who and who doesn't get in. I mean, really?! I can understand Bonds, Clemens, Sosa not getting in (although I still think they should....they never failed a test!) They weanna talk about the integrity of the game: What about the guys from the 60's and 70's who readily admitted taking amphetamines....which are PED's...PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS....they allowed them to stay on the field and complile numbers! Don't say there is a differece because...by the rule the writers go by...there isn't. What about Gaylord Perry...who doctored a baseball and was admired for it! It's a joke and maybe I'm a fool for actually caring about this..but my god...these idiot writers who basically no one knows nor gives a damn about get to dictate the history of the game...is a complete sham. How do I change the process? I'm not saying it's perfect...but here's my idea: I truly think that there should be a mandate that at least 2 guys from the modern era (wrtiers ballot...15 year limit) are elected. Keep the 75% threshold...but also say if no one reaches that....the top 2 vote getters are elected. That way...it does allow more than 2 getting in if they reach that limit...but set a floor of how many are elected. I also ADD people to the voting process: 1. Baseball journalists/personalities. Not just writers of the BBWA...but also commentators and people who cover the game on a national level, baseball historians, and such. A guy like Bob Costas not having a vote is a joke. Costas knows more about hte game than a lot of people and to not allow him to have an official vote is a travesty. 2. Hall of Fame members. What club allows outsiders to have a full vote on who is allowed into their club? the living HOF members should have a say in who gets in. 3. Fans. Let the fans have a say in teh process. It is, after all, our game and I do believe the modern fan is a lot smarter than those in the 30's...they have seen these players and they know if they are worthy or not. I'd do a breakdown of this...either an online vote or do it like the all star game where you do ballots at games. The top 10 vote getters by the fans get the votes of the fan. 1st place gets 10 votes 2nd place gets 9 votes etc, etc, etc/... I'm not saying my idea is perfect...but I do think it's BETTER than the system now. You are still putting in guys who are WORTHY of the Hall of Fame. Why should writers, who are in a dying media get to be the ONLY voice? It's a complete utter disgrace! __________________ YOUR 2012 ILLINOIS LOYALTY FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!!!!!!

Jan 9, 2013, 01:46 PM	#25
dansaint Location: Middletown, IL Posts: 850	which is why I feel taking the vot solely out of the writers hands (who have admittiedly said they don't vote for people just because of personal dislike for them) and letting other people vote. Still think the fans, baseball broadcasters/personalities/media and the HOF living members should have a say in the process as well and do a mass pool of votes __________________ YOUR 2012 ILLINOIS LOYALTY FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!!!!!!

Nov 30, 2012, 05:39 AM	#2
IntenselyOrange Posts: 6,306	Sandy Alomar Jr. Jeff Bagwell Craig Biggio Barry Bonds Jeff Cirillo Royce Clayton Roger Clemens Jeff Conine Steve Finley Julio Franco Shawn Green Roberto Hernandez Ryan Klesko Kenny Lofton Edgar Martinez Don Mattingly Fred McGriff Mark McGwire Jose Mesa Jack Morris Dale Murphy Rafael Palmeiro Mike Piazza Tim Raines Reggie Sanders Curt Schilling Aaron Sele Lee Smith Sammy Sosa Mike Stanton Alan Trammell Larry Walker Todd Walker David Wells Rondell White Bernie Williams Woody Williams I'd only vote for 8 I guess, and I don't care about steroids. Note it in the museum that they were identified in a controversy, but we really don't know who did and didn't use steroids. Three borderline guys that I don't think I would vote for are Schilling, Murphy, and Martinez.

Dec 4, 2012, 02:13 PM	#7
zoggle101 Location: Spfld, IL Posts: 4,410	Steroids and PEDs are more prevalent in our society now than ever. It's a guys way who doesn't have the genetics to achieve something his body isn't capable to do without them. I'm not saying these guys didn't have advanced coordination but it's still cheating unless everyone is doing it and for he same amount of time. Steve, have you ever played a guy at ping pong on cocaine? It's a ped.

Dec 6, 2012, 01:01 AM	#13
SteakSandwich Location: Danville, IL Posts: 110	Barry Bonds is one of the 5 best players ever before he started taking steroids. I can't blame him when he put up one of the best all-around years ever and gets 3rd place in MVP voting behind Mark and Sammy. So he shows everyone what a all-time great can do on steroids. You have to keep in mind that as a person i think barry is a arrogant !!!!!!! but he did take steroids so i'm on the fence cause i think him and clemons are the only two deserving of enshrinement. If they get in though steroids has to be mentioned.

Jan 9, 2013, 12:08 PM	#17
KBLEE Location: Montgomery, IL Posts: 6,239	Stupid BBWAA elected NOBODY to the Hall (Biggio closest at 68%). Time for sweeping changes to this ridiculous process...

Jan 9, 2013, 12:46 PM	#19
Sybok Posts: 885	How could Biggio not get in? That's ridiculous.

Jan 9, 2013, 12:56 PM	#20
IntenselyOrange Posts: 6,306	I have no problem with there being years in which no one is inducted. I also am strongly opposed to a minimum that must be inducted each year. It's the Hall of Fame and if no one was integral enough to baseball history, than so be it. That being said, this list was full of guys that must be discussed when discussing the game of baseball, even if you discount the guys that we know did PEDs. And the argument about some PEDs being acceptable and others not perfectly illustrates the lack of honesty within the voting contingent.

Jan 9, 2013, 01:33 PM	#23
IlliniSteve Posts: 5,905	Complete joke that Biggio didn't make it in. I'm not a big believer in punishing these guys after they went an entire career without any kind of punishment from the MLB.