Grade school shooting in Connecticut

sdfidaho · Dec 15, 2012, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KBLEE

Maybe my sarcasm meter is broken, but is this a serious comment? The main point that most anti-gun people forget is that "bad people" (criminals or the mentally disturbed) do not follow laws. If we pass stricter gun laws, and they are still dead-set committing an act of violence, they will still find a way to commit their act of violence. Short of putting armed guards at entrances of every school and forcing everyone through metal detectors, I don't see how something like this is preventable.

Yes, it must be broken.

classof2016 · Dec 15, 2012, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsboyce

I can't help but wonder what the result would have if the teachers in that school had been armed. Making schools a gun-free zone only serves to makes our teachers and children sitting ducks for any deranged lunatic who manages to get inside the school with a gun.

Yeah that's freakin brilliant.. guns around kids 24/7. Just what we need.

Cool Hand Luke · Dec 15, 2012, 06:09 PM

It's frustrating when you can't solve a problem. All the legislation and debate in the world cannot fix evil; it cannot fix hate; it cannot fix mental instability. You don't try to fix it from the outside. That is too large a task. You cannot wrap your mind around it, much less get your hands around it.

Training needs to start immediately for all school employees. Plans of action need to be in place. Each adult is assigned a duty. Certain people are in charge of getting students to safety. Then there are a select few whose duty it is to find the threat -- not run away from it -- and take out the threat. You don't run away from danger. You run toward danger and you eliminate danger. You do not hide from the sound of a gun firing. You seek it out. You simply cannot hide and hope authorities arrive in time. A man with a gun and a plan will always inflict massive damage upon those with no gun and no plan.

Guns in schools are not the answer. In my opinion it's a terrible solution. However, maybe bullet-proof vests are a better choice. Each adult has an easily accessible vest that would allow them to have a better chance to engage the threat and stop the threat. Would 4 men with vests they slide on within 30 seconds and who have gone through some sort of training have stopped that man? I sure would like to have found out. I'd like to think at minimum they could have occupied him long enough to have saved some lives. At best they could have overwhelmed him and stopped him before killing 20 children.

Even if that is not the answer, each school needs to have a plan. Whatever the plan is, it needs to start immediately. If that school did have a plan in place, how many lives could have been saved? You will never completely stop someone who is hellbent on causing harm, but you can minimize the damage. Hiding in closets and bathrooms waiting for police to show up is not an effective plan.

DrewD007 · Dec 15, 2012, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingt131

The killings are pure EVIL. We need to defeat or weaken EVIL. As a law abiding citizen if there is a new gun law that states I cannot purchase nor may I possess a firearm what do you think will be the result? Do you think everyone will just be without guns? No, all law abiding citizens will be without guns and the criminals will have open season on you and your family. You think there will be less crime? Chicago is #1 in strict gun laws and also ranks #1 in Crime Rate

If you think we all will benefit to be without guns then I say you have the right to NOT own or possess a gun. NEWS FLASH....Law abiding citizens are not the ones committing these crimes! You want to take away my right to defend and protect myself and my family from EVIL? People need to rethink what the heck they are asking for, because they just might get it.

I remember one of the worst days in American History, 9/11. Thousands of innocent people were murdered that day. And not a ONE single bullet was fired. It was pure EVIL that killed senselessly that day. However, if you could picture yourself on that plane and it was being taken over by box-cutters and you had a gun in your pocket... you tell me, would you use that gun rightfully to defend and protect yourself and your family against EVIL?

Think about it, it's not that complicated. People, we need to take accountability for the safety of ourselves and our children. We cannot always stop EVIL, but we can help minimize it. This world needs Prayer. America needs Prayer. Arm yourselves against EVIL!!

My prayers go out to the victims of Evil

Nothing stops people from going outside Chicago/Illinois to procure guns and bring them back in. If a ban was nationwide I think it's safe to assume it wouldn't be as bad. Unfortunately, I think we're at a point where there's just so many guns out there that it'd be impossible to create an effective ban. If there was some sort of way to confiscate guns from those who got them illegally, then that would be a start, but that just won't happen.

DaytonIllini · Dec 15, 2012, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrewD007

Nothing stops people from going outside Chicago/Illinois to procure guns and bring them back in. If a ban was nationwide I think it's safe to assume it wouldn't be as bad. Unfortunately, I think we're at a point where there's just so many guns out there that it'd be impossible to create an effective ban. If there was some sort of way to confiscate guns from those who got them illegally, then that would be a start, but that just won't happen.

You find it hard to get drugs? Pretty sure there is a world-wide ban on those and they are in every high school in the country.

Face it, you can legislate whatever you want but you cannot stop people from doing what they want.

You'd have a better chance to legislate against being nuts. We use to lock nut cases away but liberals insisted they were just like the rest of us (hearing voices and all) and set them free. We have to live with that decision.

kingt131 · Dec 15, 2012, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrewD007

Nothing stops people from going outside Chicago/Illinois to procure guns and bring them back in. If a ban was nationwide I think it's safe to assume it wouldn't be as bad. Unfortunately, I think we're at a point where there's just so many guns out there that it'd be impossible to create an effective ban. If there was some sort of way to confiscate guns from those who got them illegally, then that would be a start, but that just won't happen.

You know what they say about assuming... Go ahead and assume, I'll be waiting with my gun.

gibb52 · Dec 16, 2012, 09:16 AM

Solutions to these problems aren't easy or simple. We all know that. But while we mourn, and while we pray for the victims and their families, there are observations to be made about us as a society.

Many advances in technology bring blessings as well as curses. With the information age IMO we have become a nation of people living alone together. Years ago kids played outside almost every day after school and all summer. Why? There wasn't anything else to do. Your mom kicked your butt outside, and you played. And you learned how to get along with other kids, and certainly how not to get along with some. You acquired conflict resolution skills. Your mom and dad knew their neighbors, because they were outside as well. Talking, visiting, being involved.

Now? We are on the internet as I am now. Our kids play video games ceaselessly, where you can kill 240 people without getting a scratch on you, BTW. Why visit with your neighbor when you can visit with your friends on Facebook? Isn't Twitter and Skype more interesting than the old lady across the street?

We moved a few years ago. When we arrived at our new neighborhood of younger couples I was struck by the isolated nature of my new surroundings. People came home from work, pulled into the garage, the door came down and we didn't see them again until they left for work the next morning. When we did talk to the couple next door I was taken aback by some of the things they said. They didn't know their neighbors. They had lived across the street from somebody for several years and didn't even know their names. How odd to me.

The dual income family has brought a new standard of living to our nation. At a cost. Day care. More separation and isolation. Mom gets home from work, cooks supper, does some laundry, cleans house, helps with homework, etc. When does she have time to know what's going on outside the door? Mom's used to be the lines of communication in the neighborhood. If you smarted off to Mrs. Smith or punched Jimmy Walker your mom knew about it before you got home. We were connected that way. Now we are not.

Kids today have a degree of privacy and independence unheard of just a few years ago. Smart phones bring the internet and levels of communication that most of them aren't ready for. Parents who won't let their 11 yr old kid out of their sight will give them an iphone without hesitation, the modern equivalent of driving them to another state and dropping them off in a crowd of total strangers.

So what's my point? We need to connect. Or re-connect I guess. Know your neighborhood. Be involved in your community. A neighbor with a problem child might be more motivated to get some help if they have the comfort and support of their community.

One more thing. Be a mentor to kids. In any way that you can. Coach a ball team? Good. Youth group at church? Scouts? How about going outside with your kid and getting a neighborhood kickball game going? That odd kid down the street might play and have some fun, might feel better about himself/herself when the day is done.

A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child.

That's my 2 cents worth for the day.

AHSIllini32 · Dec 16, 2012, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaytonIllini

You find it hard to get drugs? Pretty sure there is a world-wide ban on those and they are in every high school in the country.

Face it, you can legislate whatever you want but you cannot stop people from doing what they want.

You'd have a better chance to legislate against being nuts. We use to lock nut cases away but liberals insisted they were just like the rest of us (hearing voices and all) and set them free. We have to live with that decision.

Boy you really just can't wait to turn any and everything into a slap at liberals or democrats can you? Unbelieveable and disgusting. This is part of the problem with our nation right now.

Illinichief1976 · Dec 16, 2012, 10:33 AM

Here is the elephant in the room. Those who support the inalienable right to own a fire arm are willing to accept tragedies such as Sandy Hook, Aurora, MLK, JFK and others, as the price we pay for freedom. Some believe that price is too high.

sdfidaho · Dec 16, 2012, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHSIllini32

Boy you really just can't wait to turn any and everything into a slap at liberals or democrats can you? Unbelieveable and disgusting. This is part of the problem with our nation right now.

Were you this upset every time the liberal media was so quick to blame "right wing extremists" after nearly every other shooting? Within minutes of the Gabriael Giffords shooting the leftist media was already assuming publicly that it was a member of the Tea Party.

sdfidaho · Dec 16, 2012, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illinichief1976

Here is the elephant in the room. Those who support the inalienable right to own a fire arm are willing to accept tragedies such as Sandy Hook, Aurora, MLK, JFK and others, as the price we pay for freedom. Some believe that price is too high.

Can you think of any other "elephants in the room? I sure can.

DaytonIllini · Dec 16, 2012, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illinichief1976

Here is the elephant in the room. Those who support the inalienable right to own a fire arm are willing to accept tragedies such as Sandy Hook, Aurora, MLK, JFK and others, as the price we pay for freedom. Some believe that price is too high.

Turkey outlawed guns in 1911 and in the next two years murdered 1 million of its Armenian citizens.

The USSR outlawed guns in 1929 and then went on to kill 20 million of its citizens.

The Germans outlawed guns in 1928 and 1938 and then went on to kill 13 million of its citizens.

China outlawed guns in 1957 and then butchered 20 million of its citizens.

Guatemala put strict gun controls in place in 1964 before killing 100K Mayan Indians.

Uganda put in strict gun laws in 1970 and then killed 300K of its citizens.

Cambodia put in gun control laws in the 50's and watched as its government killed over 1 million people.

That is 7 times in 100 years where a country instituted tough gun laws only to then butcher a disarmed population.

That is the other elephant in the room. The simple fact is that we live in a country where the founders fought against their legal government. They were only able to do so because they were armed. They recognized that and codified the ability of its population to be armed. Some don't like it and there is CERTAINLY a dreadful price to pay for that freedom.

Illinoise · Dec 16, 2012, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaytonIllini

Turkey outlawed guns in 1911 and in the next two years murdered 1 million of its Armenian citizens.

The USSR outlawed guns in 1929 and then went on to kill 20 million of its citizens.

The Germans outlawed guns in 1928 and 1938 and then went on to kill 13 million of its citizens.

China outlawed guns in 1957 and then butchered 20 million of its citizens.

Guatemala put strict gun controls in place in 1964 before killing 100K Mayan Indians.

Uganda put in strict gun laws in 1970 and then killed 300K of its citizens.

Cambodia put in gun control laws in the 50's and watched as its government killed over 1 million people.

That is 7 times in 100 years where a country instituted tough gun laws only to then butcher a disarmed population.

That is the other elephant in the room. The simple fact is that we live in a country where the founders fought against their legal government. They were only able to do so because they were armed. They recognized that and codified the ability of its population to be armed. Some don't like it and there is CERTAINLY a dreadful price to pay for that freedom.

You are smarter than this. I think.

NorthwesternIllini4 · Dec 16, 2012, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illinoise

You are smarter than this. I think.

Agreed. I've stayed silent on this debate, as I'm torn between the two arguments and I think we should still be sensitive to the events in CT until the raw-ness subsides.

But one of the silliest arguments against gun-control is the one Dayton just posted. Believing an armed citizenry can protect itself from a government with many more weapons, tanks, artillery, etc. is about as believable that strict gun control in Chicago has worked out well.

sdfidaho · Dec 16, 2012, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthwesternIllini4

Agreed. I've stayed silent on this debate, as I'm torn between the two arguments and I think we should still be sensitive to the events in CT until the raw-ness subsides.

But one of the silliest arguments against gun-control is the one Dayton just posted. Believing an armed citizenry can protect itself from a government with many more weapons, tanks, artillery, etc. is about as believable that strict gun control in Chicago has worked out well.

It would be nice if you could ask any one of those 10's of millions of civilians that were slaughtered by there leftist murder machine governments if defending their life, their families, and their freedom would have been "silly".

DrewD007 · Dec 16, 2012, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illinoise

You are smarter than this. I think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthwesternIllini4

Agreed. I've stayed silent on this debate, as I'm torn between the two arguments and I think we should still be sensitive to the events in CT until the raw-ness subsides.

But one of the silliest arguments against gun-control is the one Dayton just posted. Believing an armed citizenry can protect itself from a government with many more weapons, tanks, artillery, etc. is about as believable that strict gun control in Chicago has worked out well.

Agreed. Here's a somewhat humorous take... http://www.ericgarland.co/2012/12/14...-anybodys-ass/

DaytonIllini · Dec 16, 2012, 02:21 PM

See you think it is silly. I think you are ignorant to ignore history but then again those ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it. You're all probably too young to remember the civil unrest of the 60's. You probably don't recall half of Chicago on fire or a mayor issue a shoot to kill order. You might not recall armed soldiers gunning down college kids in Ohio.

Tell the Syrians or Libyans that you cannot oppose a government that becomes tyranical.

Quote:

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States."

-- Noah Webster

The murder rate in the US (4.7/100K) is less than half what it was in 1980 (10.2/100K). Heck it is about half what it was in 1993 (9.5/100K). Crime is dropping nationwide. Why anyone would pretend otherwise in an effort to advance a silly agenda is beyond me.

Illinoise · Dec 16, 2012, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaytonIllini

See you think it is silly. I think you are ignorant to ignore history but then again those ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it. You're all probably too young to remember the civil unrest of the 60's. You probably don't recall half of Chicago on fire or a mayor issue a shoot to kill order. You might not recall armed soldiers gunning down college kids in Ohio.

Tell the Syrians or Libyans that you cannot oppose a government that becomes tyranical.

The murder rate in the US (4.7/100K) is less than half what it was in 1980 (10.2/100K). Heck it is about half what it was in 1993 (9.5/100K). Crime is dropping nationwide. Why anyone would pretend otherwise in an effort to advance a silly agenda is beyond me.

To be clear. I don't think it's silly. I think it's ignorant. I don't believe for one second that you actually believe this. As someone stated earlier this is an issue I struggle with too. This is not the 1760's or 1960's. Guns are a problem. Defending the right to own them is defensible but not through this paranoid viewpoint.

sdfidaho · Dec 16, 2012, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illinoise

To be clear. I don't think it's silly. I think it's ignorant. I don't believe for one second that you actually believe this. As someone stated earlier this is an issue I struggle with too. This is not the 1760's or 1960's. Guns are a problem. Defending the right to own them is defensible but not through this paranoid viewpoint.

I'm just so glad that the world has so changed since the 1960's that we no longer have to worry about freedom, or defending it.

KBLEE · Dec 16, 2012, 07:14 PM

Leave it to our president to politicize a prayer service. Despicable...

NorthwesternIllini4 · Dec 16, 2012, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KBLEE

Leave it to our president to politicize a prayer service. Despicable...

There's plenty you can criticize Pres Obama for, but I actually thought his prayer service was pretty respectful and presidential. He made vague reference to the need for solutions to these problems, but didn't get into any 2nd Amendment/gun rights stuff. Even FoxNews is referring to his remarks as "touching".

I think you could tell he was feeling grief-stricken as a parent (as I'm sure most parents around the world have been the past few days)

Ryllini · Dec 16, 2012, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KBLEE

Leave it to our president to politicize a prayer service. Despicable...

Sorry Dan, but this guy is an idiot.

DaytonIllini · Dec 16, 2012, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illinoise

To be clear. I don't think it's silly. I think it's ignorant. I don't believe for one second that you actually believe this. As someone stated earlier this is an issue I struggle with too. This is not the 1760's or 1960's. Guns are a problem. Defending the right to own them is defensible but not through this paranoid viewpoint.

Apparently you are ignoring the fact that the world is A lot safer place in terms of crime than it was 20 years ago. During that time gun laws have been generally relaxed throughout the nation.

Your premise ignores the facts. But don't let that stop you.

And you have no idea what I think so why doubt that my stated thoughts are what they are?

You do realize that the reason for the 1st amendment is so you can criticize your government when it is wrong or being tryanical.

In fact almost all the Bill of Rights were defenses of the individual against the power of the government. If you don't realize that, it's pointless discussing this with you.

DaytonIllini · Dec 16, 2012, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryllini

Sorry Dan, but this guy is an idiot.

Ryllini · Dec 16, 2012, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaytonIllini

Whatever you feel about our president, he was in a tough spot in a tough time. No need to criticize. What was he going to say to make you happy....let's arm our teachers?...that is stupid. A armed terrorist has a semi or fully automatic weapon(s), that will get off how many rounds before your teacher? your teacher will be reaching in the desk the same time the offender is committing suicide.He was visibly upset. Whether you like him or not, he is a parent first, and I am sure it hits home with him. This isn't a rare rash, google it, this has been happening fr a while now. More guns is not the answer. Sorry, this isn't about politics, but Jesus Christ give our president a break. Despicable of you to turn a tough time and tough speech into something political. And he is right....we aren't doing enough to protect our children or any harmless citizen in this country.

Dec 15, 2012, 06:09 PM	#78
Cool Hand Luke Founder, Mike Thomas Fan Club Location: Tuscola, IL Posts: 709	It's frustrating when you can't solve a problem. All the legislation and debate in the world cannot fix evil; it cannot fix hate; it cannot fix mental instability. You don't try to fix it from the outside. That is too large a task. You cannot wrap your mind around it, much less get your hands around it. Training needs to start immediately for all school employees. Plans of action need to be in place. Each adult is assigned a duty. Certain people are in charge of getting students to safety. Then there are a select few whose duty it is to find the threat -- not run away from it -- and take out the threat. You don't run away from danger. You run toward danger and you eliminate danger. You do not hide from the sound of a gun firing. You seek it out. You simply cannot hide and hope authorities arrive in time. A man with a gun and a plan will always inflict massive damage upon those with no gun and no plan. Guns in schools are not the answer. In my opinion it's a terrible solution. However, maybe bullet-proof vests are a better choice. Each adult has an easily accessible vest that would allow them to have a better chance to engage the threat and stop the threat. Would 4 men with vests they slide on within 30 seconds and who have gone through some sort of training have stopped that man? I sure would like to have found out. I'd like to think at minimum they could have occupied him long enough to have saved some lives. At best they could have overwhelmed him and stopped him before killing 20 children. Even if that is not the answer, each school needs to have a plan. Whatever the plan is, it needs to start immediately. If that school did have a plan in place, how many lives could have been saved? You will never completely stop someone who is hellbent on causing harm, but you can minimize the damage. Hiding in closets and bathrooms waiting for police to show up is not an effective plan. __________________ "The freight train is moving. Either jump on or get off." - John Groce

Dec 16, 2012, 09:16 AM	#82
gibb52 Posts: 688	Solutions to these problems aren't easy or simple. We all know that. But while we mourn, and while we pray for the victims and their families, there are observations to be made about us as a society. Many advances in technology bring blessings as well as curses. With the information age IMO we have become a nation of people living alone together. Years ago kids played outside almost every day after school and all summer. Why? There wasn't anything else to do. Your mom kicked your butt outside, and you played. And you learned how to get along with other kids, and certainly how not to get along with some. You acquired conflict resolution skills. Your mom and dad knew their neighbors, because they were outside as well. Talking, visiting, being involved. Now? We are on the internet as I am now. Our kids play video games ceaselessly, where you can kill 240 people without getting a scratch on you, BTW. Why visit with your neighbor when you can visit with your friends on Facebook? Isn't Twitter and Skype more interesting than the old lady across the street? We moved a few years ago. When we arrived at our new neighborhood of younger couples I was struck by the isolated nature of my new surroundings. People came home from work, pulled into the garage, the door came down and we didn't see them again until they left for work the next morning. When we did talk to the couple next door I was taken aback by some of the things they said. They didn't know their neighbors. They had lived across the street from somebody for several years and didn't even know their names. How odd to me. The dual income family has brought a new standard of living to our nation. At a cost. Day care. More separation and isolation. Mom gets home from work, cooks supper, does some laundry, cleans house, helps with homework, etc. When does she have time to know what's going on outside the door? Mom's used to be the lines of communication in the neighborhood. If you smarted off to Mrs. Smith or punched Jimmy Walker your mom knew about it before you got home. We were connected that way. Now we are not. Kids today have a degree of privacy and independence unheard of just a few years ago. Smart phones bring the internet and levels of communication that most of them aren't ready for. Parents who won't let their 11 yr old kid out of their sight will give them an iphone without hesitation, the modern equivalent of driving them to another state and dropping them off in a crowd of total strangers. So what's my point? We need to connect. Or re-connect I guess. Know your neighborhood. Be involved in your community. A neighbor with a problem child might be more motivated to get some help if they have the comfort and support of their community. One more thing. Be a mentor to kids. In any way that you can. Coach a ball team? Good. Youth group at church? Scouts? How about going outside with your kid and getting a neighborhood kickball game going? That odd kid down the street might play and have some fun, might feel better about himself/herself when the day is done. A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child. That's my 2 cents worth for the day.

Dec 16, 2012, 10:33 AM	#84
Illinichief1976 Posts: 28	Here is the elephant in the room. Those who support the inalienable right to own a fire arm are willing to accept tragedies such as Sandy Hook, Aurora, MLK, JFK and others, as the price we pay for freedom. Some believe that price is too high.

Dec 16, 2012, 07:14 PM	#95
KBLEE Location: Montgomery, IL Posts: 6,294	Leave it to our president to politicize a prayer service. Despicable...