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Old Dec 15, 2012, 12:13 PM   #1
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New Mexico Bowl: Arizona players fighting on the sideline
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 03:16 PM   #2
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The sad thing is that they ended up winning.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 03:53 PM   #3
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I guess the brawl with UCLA last year didn't get it completely out of their system.

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Old Dec 15, 2012, 04:42 PM   #4
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I guess the brawl with UCLA last year didn't get it completely out of their system.
I thought ASU was the party and fist to cuffs school and UA was the Northwestern of the desert? Guess not.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 05:58 PM   #5
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Toledo got beat fairly badly by Utah St. and had their offense struggle again. I think those that are saying Beckman was only successful because of Campbell are losing a bit of steam.

EDIT: Utah St. just scored again to make it 41-15...ouch.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 06:30 PM   #6
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Toledo got beat fairly badly by Utah St. and had their offense struggle again. I think those that are saying Beckman was only successful because of Campbell are losing a bit of steam.

EDIT: Utah St. just scored again to make it 41-15...ouch.
The jury is still out on both Beckman and Campbell at this point, but 9-4 overall, 6-2 in conference isn't too bad for a first year coach who lost alot of quality players from last years team.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 06:41 PM   #7
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Toledo got beat fairly badly by Utah St. and had their offense struggle again. I think those that are saying Beckman was only successful because of Campbell are losing a bit of steam.

EDIT: Utah St. just scored again to make it 41-15...ouch.
The game was really close until the 4th quarter, and then they got the doors blown off. I was not real impressed with some of the red zone calls Toledo made, ended up with a lot of field goals instead of touchdowns.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 07:30 PM   #8
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The jury is still out on both Beckman and Campbell at this point, but 9-4 overall, 6-2 in conference isn't too bad for a first year coach who lost alot of quality players from last years team.
The S&P and F+ ratings show that Campbell struggled quite a bit this year from last year. The overall point is that those saying Toledo is better with Campbell over Beckman this year were wrong
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 08:28 PM   #9
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The S&P and F+ ratings show that Campbell struggled quite a bit this year from last year. The overall point is that those saying Toledo is better with Campbell over Beckman this year were wrong
F/+

2011 Beckman + Campbell= 28

2012 Campbell- Beckman= 49

2012 Beckman- Campbell= 108

I'm not sure people were necessarily saying that Toledo was better this year than last. I think they were saying Campbell was the driving force behind the Toledo success ala Chris Peterson and Dan Hawkins.

It is too early to make that call certainly, but using a bowl loss to cap a nine win season probably isnt the best argument when Beckman struggled so mightily
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 09:11 PM   #10
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F/+

2011 Beckman + Campbell= 28

2012 Campbell- Beckman= 49

2012 Beckman- Campbell= 108

I'm not sure people were necessarily saying that Toledo was better this year than last. I think they were saying Campbell was the driving force behind the Toledo success ala Chris Peterson and Dan Hawkins.

It is too early to make that call certainly, but using a bowl loss to cap a nine win season probably isnt the best argument when Beckman struggled so mightily
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 09:12 PM   #11
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F/+

2011 Beckman + Campbell= 28

2012 Campbell- Beckman= 49

2012 Beckman- Campbell= 108

I'm not sure people were necessarily saying that Toledo was better this year than last. I think they were saying Campbell was the driving force behind the Toledo success ala Chris Peterson and Dan Hawkins.

It is too early to make that call certainly, but using a bowl loss to cap a nine win season probably isnt the best argument when Beckman struggled so mightily
Trying to compare Beckman taking over Illinois to Campbell taking over Toledo is about the most useless exercise there is.

Your comparison is entirely off-base. This also isn't based on just the bowl game. The S&P and F+ rankings are for the entire year up to today. Again, your argument is completely missing the point.

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Old Dec 15, 2012, 09:27 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by I Hate Lemonier View Post
F/+

2011 Beckman + Campbell= 28

2012 Campbell- Beckman= 49

2012 Beckman- Campbell= 108

I'm not sure people were necessarily saying that Toledo was better this year than last. I think they were saying Campbell was the driving force behind the Toledo success ala Chris Peterson and Dan Hawkins.

It is too early to make that call certainly, but using a bowl loss to cap a nine win season probably isnt the best argument when Beckman struggled so mightily
Campbell inherited a better program, and had a MUCH easier transition given that he already knew the players and was keeping the same system. It is nonsensical to compare the two situations as you are crudely attempting to do.

Several on this forum have gone so far as to suggest that Beckman not only failed to comtribue to the success at Toledo, but actually held that team back (e.g. terrible game management, poor defense). Given that Toledo is clearly worse this year without Beckman and with most of the same players (most of the guys who left were replaced by guys in the system), there isn't any evidence to support that argument.

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Old Dec 15, 2012, 09:37 PM   #13
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Trying to compare Beckman taking over Illinois to Campbell taking over Toledo is about the most useless exercise there is.

Your comparison is entirely off-base. This also isn't based on just the bowl game. The S&P and F+ rankings are for the entire year up to today. Again, your argument is completely missing the point.
I'm familiar with what the rankings constitute. You picked a Toledo loss to illustrate that perhaps Campbell wasn't as integral to Beckman's success as some would like to believe.

With the personnel losses that Toledo had after 2011 it isnt that surprising that they dropped 21 spots.

Campbell experienced far greater success this year than Beckman. As i said the jury is still out, but the 2012 season did nothing to indicate that Beckman > Campbell
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 09:49 PM   #14
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Campbell inherited a better program, and had a MUCH easier transition given that he already knew the players and was keeping the same system. It is nonsensical to compare the two situations as you are crudely attempting to do.

Several on this forum have gone so far as to suggest that Beckman not only failed to comtribue to the success at Toledo, but actually held that team back (e.g. terrible game management, poor defense). Given that Toledo is clearly worse this year without Beckman and with most of the same players (most of the guys who left were replaced by guys in the system), there isn't any evidence to support that argument.
A better program? Outside of 2011 when was the last time Toledo finished with a better F/+

What was the single biggest contributor to Toledo's 2011 success? Maybe their 25th ranked offense. Who was the brains behind that operation?

Yes it is easier to transition when you have players built for your system. You fail to mention the difficulty of a 32 year old first time head coach.

We dont know yet whether it was Beckman or Campbell that keyed Toledo's 2011 success, but it isnt preposterous to ask the question
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 10:52 PM   #15
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A better program? Outside of 2011 when was the last time Toledo finished with a better F/+

What was the single biggest contributor to Toledo's 2011 success? Maybe their 25th ranked offense. Who was the brains behind that operation?

Yes it is easier to transition when you have players built for your system. You fail to mention the difficulty of a 32 year old first time head coach.

We dont know yet whether it was Beckman or Campbell that keyed Toledo's 2011 success, but it isnt preposterous to ask the question
The Campbell responsible for Beckman’s success thing has really taken on a life of its own. Beckman trended better with a different OC his first year too, Campbell merely continued the trend. Yet, for the sake of argument, let’s look at some numbers. In order to do this, I am going to use Rivals Rankings for recruiting classes, assuming all players made it into school, no transfers and no one left early (in short, I really overstated Illinois’ recruiting average).
Toledo
Year F+ Rivals Avg Prev. 4 yrs Total Wins Conf Wins
2008 -104 -5.2 -3 -2
2009 -98 -5.2 -5 -3
2010 -88 -5.3 -8 -7
2011 -28 -5.3 -9 -7
2012 -49 -5.4 -9 -6

Illinois
Year F+ Rivals Avg Prev. 4 yrs Total Wins Conf Wins
2008 -43 -5.5 -5 -3
2009 -84 -5.6 -3 -2
2010 -35 -5.6 -7 -4
2011 -62 -5.5 -7 -2
2012 -108 -5.5 -2 -0

OK, so what I see is, that Toledo is rolling out less talented classes and replacing them with more talented classes, but their F+ dropped this year. They have the same number of total wins as last year, and their conference wins dropped.
Illinois is seeing their talent level drop, it peaked in 2010. Ever since, the classes have been dragging down the average (next year Illinois could cross the line with Toledo on talent!). Illinois’ Total wins peaked in 2010 & 2011, while conference wins peaked in 2010.
Using AHS’ argument, it has been apparent that Campbell inherited a program built for more immediate success than Beckman. If he was able to coach as effectively as Beckman (which appears to be easily doable) he should have maintained, but with a small drop acceptable. Beckman should have seen a drop in his strength based on what was lost from last year’s class, and let it free fall. What do the two of them have to do with each other? No idea. As far as I know, Candle is the reason for all the success at Toledo. It just frustrates me that people will pillory Beckman for being a bad coach, and point out that Campbell was the reason for success, without crediting the direction Beckman had the program pointing. They then oversell the effect of how bad Beckman’s coaching was, when it was very apparent we were pointing down as a program. It he has no injuries, he could of won at best 5 games. With no injuries, Campbell could have won every game, but won 9. Both underperformed what could have been.

IHL, sorry if this is coming off as a personal attack, it is not to be such. I have an issue with the belief by many that the only reason Illinois had a bad year was solely due to Beckman, and that the "additional" success seen at Toledo this year was solely due to Campbell.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 11:03 PM   #16
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A better program? Outside of 2011 when was the last time Toledo finished with a better F/+
That is the point isn't it. The programs changed hands after the 2011 season. Toledo was WAY better than Illinois in 2011. Moreover, looking at the past two years the Toledo arrow was pointing up and the Illinois arrow was pointing down. Finally, Toledo was heading into the 4th year of a rebuilding program, right when they should be expected to hit their stride. Yes, Campbell inherited a better program.

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What was the single biggest contributor to Toledo's 2011 success? Maybe their 25th ranked offense. Who was the brains behind that operation?
And what about that 40th ranked defense and 60th ranked special teams? What about the recruiting that assembled that talent, including evaluate and strategy as well as selling the program? What about team discipline? Conditioning. If it was that easy to isolate the contributions of a coordinator to team success high major programs would routinely hire successful coordinators instead of proven head coaches.

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Yes it is easier to transition when you have players built for your system. You fail to mention the difficulty of a 32 year old first time head coach.
So are you suggesting Campbell wasn't ready for the job? And how exactly does that make your case?

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We dont know yet whether it was Beckman or Campbell that keyed Toledo's 2011 success, but it isnt preposterous to ask the question
It isn't preposterous to ask that question. For most who bring this up, it is only a rhetorical question. Given how vociferously you argue this "question" at every opportunity, I doubt you are just asking the question.

And getting back to the original point, yes Toledo was worse this year without Beckman. The bowl game just provided one more data point supporting that thesis.

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Old Dec 15, 2012, 11:28 PM   #17
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That is the point isn't it. The programs changed hands after the 2011 season. Toledo was WAY better than Illinois in 2011. Moreover, looking at the past two years the Toledo arrow was pointing up and the Illinois arrow was pointing down. Finally, Toledo was heading into the 4th year of a rebuilding program, right when they should be expected to hit their stride. Yes, Campbell inherited a better program.


And what about that 40th ranked defense and 60th ranked special teams? What about the recruiting that assembled that talent, including evaluate and strategy as well as selling the program? What about team discipline? Conditioning. If it was that easy to isolate the contributions of a coordinator to team success high major programs would routinely hire successful coordinators instead of proven head coaches.


So are you suggesting Campbell wasn't ready for the job? And how exactly does that make your case?


It isn't preposterous to ask that question. For most who bring this up, it is only a rhetorical question. Given how vociferously you argue this "question" at every opportunity, I doubt you are just asking the question.

And getting back to the original point, yes Toledo was worse this year without Beckman. The bowl game just provided one more data point supporting that thesis.
Yawn

I didn't bring the issue up in this thread and I didn't attempt to use Toledo's bowl game to try and reignite the debate. I responded to the topic which was inserted into this thread. Infer whatever motives you like to my words.

I don't see my words as particularly vociferous and I believe this is my first foray into the Beckman vs Campbell discussion and time will tell which coach should be credited with Toledo's success.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 11:44 PM   #18
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IHL, sorry if this is coming off as a personal attack, it is not to be such. I have an issue with the belief by many that the only reason Illinois had a bad year was solely due to Beckman, and that the "additional" success seen at Toledo this year was solely due to Campbell.
No worries Angry. If there wasn't disagreement in this place it would be terribly boring. I don't be;ieve the entire Illinois season falls on Beckman, just like I don't think Toledo's entire 2011 season should be credited to Campbell. I have to admit early signs aren't terribly encouraging but only time will answer that.

I should have been a little clearer in my response to AHS but Toledo had significant losses from its 2011 team. Losses that in my mind easily explain the drop from 28 to 49 in the F/+. They lost:

3 of 5 Starting O-line
2 Top rushers
Top receiver/return man

3 of 4 Starting D-Line
1 of 3 Starting Linebackers
3 starters Secondary

Those are significant losses to overcome, even with good recruiting and a familiar system.
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 09:19 AM   #19
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Yawn

I didn't bring the issue up in this thread and I didn't attempt to use Toledo's bowl game to try and reignite the debate. I responded to the topic which was inserted into this thread. Infer whatever motives you like to my words.

I don't see my words as particularly vociferous and I believe this is my first foray into the Beckman vs Campbell discussion and time will tell which coach should be credited with Toledo's success.
What's the difference between being the one who brought it up and being the one who constantly makes replies about it trying to argue the other side of view?

You're sort of missing the point here too. Campbell absolutely had something to do with the success Beckman had at Toledo. It's not an either/or situation. However, there were those on here just last week claiming that if Toledo won this bowl game then Campbell is a better coach than Beckman (even if they won the statistics show otherwise).

It's just ridiculous for people to say the only reason Beckman was successful was because of Campbell. It was an outlandish statement before the season and is even more so now when you look at all the information available.

Campbell was a great OC for Beckman but Beckman was also the one who made the huge risk of appointing a 28 year old kid as his OC. Beckman also helped oversee a defense that consistently improved and finished quite respectably, had a decent special teams unit, consistently outrecruited most if not all of the other schools in the MAC, etc.

One other thing, Toledo's S&P ranking dropped from 24 last year to 77 this year.

Last edited by AHSIllini32; Dec 16, 2012 at 09:25 AM.
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 09:25 AM   #20
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No worries Angry. If there wasn't disagreement in this place it would be terribly boring. I don't be;ieve the entire Illinois season falls on Beckman, just like I don't think Toledo's entire 2011 season should be credited to Campbell. I have to admit early signs aren't terribly encouraging but only time will answer that.

I should have been a little clearer in my response to AHS but Toledo had significant losses from its 2011 team. Losses that in my mind easily explain the drop from 28 to 49 in the F/+. They lost:

3 of 5 Starting O-line
2 Top rushers
Top receiver/return man

3 of 4 Starting D-Line
1 of 3 Starting Linebackers
3 starters Secondary

Those are significant losses to overcome, even with good recruiting and a familiar system.
So then you should feel the same about Beckman at Illinois correct?
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 09:34 AM   #21
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What's the difference between being the one who brought it up and being the one who constantly makes replies about it trying to argue the other side of view?

You're sort of missing the point here too. Campbell absolutely had something to do with the success Beckman had at Toledo. It's not an either/or situation. However, there were those on here just last week claiming that if Toledo won this bowl game then Campbell is a better coach than Beckman (even if they won the statistics show otherwise).

It's just ridiculous for people to say the only reason Beckman was successful was because of Campbell. It was an outlandish statement before the season and is even more so now when you look at all the information available.

Campbell was a great OC for Beckman but Beckman was also the one who made the huge risk of appointing a 28 year old kid as his OC. Beckman also helped oversee a defense that consistently improved and finished quite respectably, had a decent special teams unit, consistently outrecruited most if not all of the other schools in the MAC, etc.
Constantly making replies about it? I think this thread is the only time I have weighed in on the issue. Perhaps I should have just pointed out that I thought Campbell did very well in 2012, all things considered, and left Beckman out of it.

Beckman will have every oppurtunity to prove the naysayers wrong, and until then the larger debate on Beckman will rage on.
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 09:36 AM   #22
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So then you should feel the same about Beckman at Illinois correct?
Of course. I just had never seen these player losses mentioned in arguments over Toledo's fall in the F/+ this year.

It has been mentioned over and over again in discussing Illinois drop
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 01:51 PM   #23
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Not weighing in on the Beckman vs. Campbell discussion, but just commenting on the Toledo bowl game...

I thought Toledo looked like a carbon copy of us (except they had big boy special teams - return TD and recovered onside kick). Their offense was mediocre and weak in the red zone. Some curious play calling (or maybe that's just life with the Spread offense). Dropped passes. QB who could run but was weak in the passing game. D was good for 3 quarters then gassed (and gashed) in the 4th. Lopsided loss in a game they were in for 45 min.

I could definitely believe the two head coaches (TB and Campbell) were from the same staff and had same schemes
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 02:56 PM   #24
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Why are there so many bowls? Overnight ratings from Sat: New Mexico Bowl (ESPN): 1.9. Butler upsets No. 1 Indiana (CBS): 1.5.

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Old Dec 17, 2012, 03:05 PM   #25
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^^^ And that, in a nutshell, is why football is driving conference realignment.

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