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Old Mar 8, 2013, 10:01 AM   #1
DaytonIllini
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We all know that Europe is going through the fits of nation formation. I found this interesting though.

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The proposal "calls on the EU and its member states to take concrete action on discrimination against women in advertising... [with] a ban on all forms of pornography in the media".

Kartika Liotard, a Dutch left-wing feminist MEP, is seeking "statutory measures to prevent any form of pornography in the media and in advertising and for a ban on advertising for pornographic products and sex tourism", including measures in the "digital field".

The MEPs are also demanding the establishment of state sex censors with "a mandate to impose effective sanctions on companies and individuals promoting the sexualisation of girls".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...rnography.html

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A recent EU report urged tight press regulation and demanded that Brussels officials are given control of national media supervisors with new powers to enforce fines or the sacking of journalists.
Tyrrany can come about in many ways but the easiest way is through gradual removal of rights and gradual assertions of increased governmental powers. Like the frog in the pot that is being heated, we don't even notice this erosion of freedom.

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Old Mar 8, 2013, 12:22 PM   #2
Illini2016
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Remember when it was just the right-wing social conservatives that wanted to ban porn? Now it is both sides. Just disgusting. Freedom is hanging on by a thread.

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Old Mar 9, 2013, 10:36 AM   #3
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While I understand the whole "freedom of media" concept, is there REALLY anyone here who can legitimately disagree with the fact that NOT having porn would be bad for our society?

I think having the stuff go away would improve society in general (and probably save more than a few marriages); however, one cannot claim their country actually has "free speech" if it's banned by law.

D*mned if you do, d*mned if you don't.

The woman spearheading this IS a pig, though.

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Old Mar 9, 2013, 10:45 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by OlivetNaz View Post
While I understand the whole "freedom of media" concept, is there REALLY anyone here who can legitimately disagree with the fact that NOT having porn would be bad for our society?

I think having the stuff go away would improve society in general (and probably save more than a few marriages); however, one cannot claim their country actually has "free speech" if it's banned by law.
It's a vice and like liquor during prohibition and the current marijuana laws it won't stop because it is made illegal. For the most part, I think porn is harmless but unfortunately, there are those (like alcoholics and drug addicts) who become obsessed with it. I happen to be assembled in a way that is resistant to addiction of any kind so I always favor more freedom because I don't personally need to deal with the devils that addiction to anything unveils. I enjoy seeing attractive people naked, I don't think that's porn. I don't enjoy seeing people, clothed or not, doing wicked, mean or humiliating things to each other.
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Old Mar 13, 2013, 12:07 AM   #5
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For the most part, I think porn is harmless but unfortunately, there are those (like alcoholics and drug addicts) who become obsessed with it. I happen to be assembled in a way that is resistant to addiction of any kind so I always favor more freedom because I don't personally need to deal with the devils that addiction to anything unveils. I enjoy seeing attractive people naked, I don't think that's porn. I don't enjoy seeing people, clothed or not, doing wicked, mean or humiliating things to each other.
Pornography is harmful to both men and women. Sure, we put on the illusion that "it's just a picture," but it has very harmful consequences.

Just a couple of months ago I heard a talk given by a woman, Leah Darrow, who had done porn before. What struck me is that she said that you see the women look happy when they are on camera, but you never see what they're actually feeling when they are off camera. Many of them can't eat because they are so sick of what they are doing. Many of them go into severe depression. They are revealing so much of themselves and it is extremely difficult to cope with that. And that's just on the women's side.

On the men's side it unquestionably hurts so many marriages (so women too). And it's not just men that watch porn, many young boys get addicted when they aren't even teenagers yet. Unfortunately, not everyone is "assembled" like you. These boys get a very distorted view of women at a young age and it affects their ability to love a real woman when they grow up. A nation of boys who can't love leads to a nation of broken marriages and families, doesn't it?

Pornography separates someone's body from their actual person. The problem with pornography, as I believe Pope John Paul II said, is not that it shows too much of a person, but it shows too little.

It seems silly to complain about a lack of freedom of speech when that "freedom of speech" is such an obviously immoral thing. Will we complain about the lack of freedom of speech so that we can make racist comments next? We have much bigger issues to worry about, starting off with the protection of the unborn.
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Old Mar 13, 2013, 07:48 AM   #6
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The thread isn't about porn. It's about small time thinkers that posit something is bad therefore it should be banned.

Whether its the women's temperance movement or the genius that thought up the war on drugs or a dimwit in Europe that wants to ban porn, they should be ridiculed for the idiots they are.

Let's ban the idea of imposing our will on someone else. That's a ban I could support.

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Old Mar 13, 2013, 07:50 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Brightside View Post
Pornography is harmful to both men and women. Sure, we put on the illusion that "it's just a picture," but it has very harmful consequences.

Just a couple of months ago I heard a talk given by a woman, Leah Darrow, who had done porn before. What struck me is that she said that you see the women look happy when they are on camera, but you never see what they're actually feeling when they are off camera. Many of them can't eat because they are so sick of what they are doing. Many of them go into severe depression. They are revealing so much of themselves and it is extremely difficult to cope with that. And that's just on the women's side.

On the men's side it unquestionably hurts so many marriages (so women too). And it's not just men that watch porn, many young boys get addicted when they aren't even teenagers yet. Unfortunately, not everyone is "assembled" like you. These boys get a very distorted view of women at a young age and it affects their ability to love a real woman when they grow up. A nation of boys who can't love leads to a nation of broken marriages and families, doesn't it?

It seems silly to complain about a lack of freedom of speech when that "freedom of speech" is such an obviously immoral thing. Will we complain about the lack of freedom of speech so that we can make racist comments next? We have much bigger issues to worry about, starting off with the protection of the unborn.
What you describe is sad and the negative side of porn. To play the devil's advocate, should everything with negative cosequences to a small percentage of the population be banned? Automobiles, guns, cigarettes and perscription drugs all have deathly consequences but we live with the risk. I'm not a consumer of porn but in the interest of free speech, it should be permitted.
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Old Mar 13, 2013, 10:16 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by pizzaman View Post
What you describe is sad and the negative side of porn. To play the devil's advocate, should everything with negative cosequences to a small percentage of the population be banned? Automobiles, guns, cigarettes and perscription drugs all have deathly consequences but we live with the risk. I'm not a consumer of porn but in the interest of free speech, it should be permitted.
Yea that's a fair question. My initial thought is that if something doesn't do anything good, then there is no need for it. Even guns can have a useful purpose in hunting and defense. But do cigarettes serve a good purpose? Does porn? They both give pleasure, but that's about it. The rest is negative. But I wouldn't ban cigarettes. They're stupid, and parents should not smoke around their children, but making them illegal seems a bit much. Porn could be considered worse because cigarettes only hurt people physically (and financially), but porn hurts people emotionally, affecting people's relationships for the rest of their life.

What's your take? It's definitely a tough call.
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Old Mar 13, 2013, 10:21 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by DaytonIllini View Post
Let's ban the idea of imposing our will on someone else. That's a ban I could support.
Devil's advocate: How about cases of rape and violence? Racism? How about cases of insanity? Suicide? Are you against imposing your will on potential threats to life and freedom?

I firmly believe that there is an inherent natural morality in life, and it isn't restrictive but actually freeing to teach others to live well. We've seen way too many "free" people waste their lives because of addictions and misconceptions. We need to teach responsibility.
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Old Mar 13, 2013, 10:26 AM   #10
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Reisman pointed out that from the youngest age, children mimic what they see. She said that if they see sex acts, many children naturally practice what they see on vulnerable infants and children nearby.

Reisman pointed to research in neuroscience that has found that exposure to pornography can permanently alter the brain, triggering “an instant, involuntary, but lasting, biochemical memory trail.”

“And once new neurochemical pathways are established, they are difficult or impossible to delete,” she said.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/por...-people-expert

A little science to back up my point.
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Old Mar 13, 2013, 10:27 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Brightside View Post
I firmly believe that there is an inherent natural morality in life, and it isn't restrictive but actually freeing to teach others to live well. We've seen way too many "free" people waste their lives because of addictions and misconceptions. We need to teach responsibility.
There's your answer...education, not legislation.
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Old Mar 13, 2013, 10:33 AM   #12
pizzaman
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Originally Posted by Brightside View Post
We need to teach responsibility.
Well now you've hit on something that is positive. IMO restricting vices will never work. Teaching people to either use vices responsibly or to avoid them because of their downside has a chance.

I believe that restricting our civil liberties won't make society any better. In the case of vices that have a pleasure component, criminal activity will ensure that those who seek the outlawed act or product will be able to get it.

I like to believe that there is a fundamental morality in the human race (I am a member of a mainstream Christian religion) but too much evil brings that belief into question. Did I learn morality or is it really a fundamental human characteristic?
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Old Mar 13, 2013, 10:48 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Brightside View Post
Devil's advocate: How about cases of rape and violence? Racism? How about cases of insanity? Suicide? Are you against imposing your will on potential threats to life and freedom?

I firmly believe that there is an inherent natural morality in life, and it isn't restrictive but actually freeing to teach others to live well. We've seen way too many "free" people waste their lives because of addictions and misconceptions. We need to teach responsibility.
You cannot enforce morality. I am all for pointing out the damaging effects of vices or racism. Do you really think that you can effectively legislate against those things though? What we know is that when you deny something to someone, you make them want it more. They are willing to kill, cheat, steal and lie to get what they want.

The answer to me is keep it legal. Spend precious resources educating against it rather than using those resources in a doomed and silly attempt to enforce a simple majority's will.

I think your asking about rape and violence is off base. Both of those are acts by someone AGAINST another. Liberty to do what you want to yourself is far different than liberty to do something to someone else. How can there be liberty to rape when you are by definition denying the liberty to not be raped to someone else. Apples and oranges.

I also don't understand your question about insanity. Are you suggesting we can legislate against it? How successful are we at legislating against suicide? It's not even clear that suicide is always wrong. See end stage cancer patients for example.

Keep in mind that you believe in a 'natural morality' to life that many others may not share. That means you would be subjected to what the majority thinks is moral even if you don't agree with it.

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Old Mar 13, 2013, 11:33 AM   #14
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Not to throw anyone under the bus as I appreciate Brightside's civil contribution to the thread but these guys think that they know what the natural morality is:

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Punjab native Anwar Din, 27, was posted last year to the Parachinar area of Kurram agency where he met Intizar Bibi, 19, while manning a checkpost near her home.

The two embarked on a romantic relationship, tribal sources said, and he tried to elope with her when he was later posted to the disputed Kashmir region. It was not immediately clear what evidence there was, if any, of a romance.

"The girl left her home on Monday and met Anwar Din when villagers saw them," said Munir Hussain, the head of the local jirga, or tribal court, that sentenced Din to death. "We took the girl into custody and took the boy to the local graveyard where he was stoned to death and buried."

Din was killed on Monday, he added. A government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the jirga had ruled the woman must be shot to death. It was not immediately clear if this had already taken place.
It's a stark example of why we should have very few laws that prohibit things for consenting adults.

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Old Mar 13, 2013, 12:57 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by DaytonIllini View Post
Not to throw anyone under the bus as I appreciate Brightside's civil contribution to the thread but these guys think that they know what the natural morality is:



It's a stark example of why we should have very few laws that prohibit things for consenting adults.
In regards to this post I am amazed that stoning is still common in many parts of the world. Every time I hear or read about this happening I think back to when I first learned of this practice in grade school reading Shirley Jackson's short story "The Lottery". While the account is fictional I believe it was my first realization of just how viciously cruel people can be. I remember being utterly shocked. It was a literary eye opener for me and had much to do with the initial firing of my love for the written word. A highly recommended read!

Sorry for the slightly off topic post.

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Old Mar 13, 2013, 10:18 PM   #16
DaytonIllini
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Thanks to Dan for bringing us back from that trip to Wonderland.

I now realize that there are distinct limits to my libertarianism. I was dying for a little censorship there. [/tongue-in-cheek]

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Old Mar 13, 2013, 11:52 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by AzIlliniFan View Post
In regards to this post I am amazed that stoning is still common in many parts of the world. Every time I hear or read about this happening I think back to when I first learned of this practice in grade school reading Shirley Jackson's short story "The Lottery". While the account is fictional I believe it was my first realization of just how viciously cruel people can be. I remember being utterly shocked. It was a literary eye opener for me and had much to do with the initial firing of my love for the written word. A highly recommended read!

Sorry for the slightly off topic post.
Similarly, we just watched The Stoning of Soraya M. in one of my gen-ed courses this week, which was pretty eye-opening in that that practice still goes on. I've heard the book is good and more detailed about the story, so I'm hoping to read it sometime soon. It's hard to even imagine being present when someone's killed in such a gruesome way.

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Old May 3, 2013, 10:45 AM   #18
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High school student faces 20 years in prison for Facebook messages

Should song lyrics like this be protected under the First Amendment?

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An 18-year-old high school student from the greater Boston area has been arrested and charged with making terroristic threats after police were alerted to “disturbing verbiage” on his personal Facebook page.
Ok, so maybe this kid is an idiot, but does it make him a criminal? Where do we draw the line on freedom of speech?

The lyrics to this "song" are stupid and irresponsible, but I'm uncomfortable with arresting him and charging him with a felony. Are we now going to arrest every entertainer who makes vague "threats"?
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Old May 3, 2013, 10:50 AM   #19
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Should song lyrics like this be protected under the First Amendment?



Ok, so maybe this kid is an idiot, but does it make him a criminal? Where do we draw the line on freedom of speech?

The lyrics to this "song" are stupid and irresponsible, but I'm uncomfortable with arresting him and charging him with a felony. Are we now going to arrest every entertainer who makes vague "threats"?
This is wrong on so many levels. I have no problem if the authorities chose to investigate the kid based on his posts, but words themselves are not criminal, regardless of how tasteless, insensitive, or outright stupid.
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Old May 3, 2013, 11:20 AM   #20
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Should song lyrics like this be protected under the First Amendment?



Ok, so maybe this kid is an idiot, but does it make him a criminal? Where do we draw the line on freedom of speech?

The lyrics to this "song" are stupid and irresponsible, but I'm uncomfortable with arresting him and charging him with a felony. Are we now going to arrest every entertainer who makes vague "threats"?
It's a joke, but a very scary one. Clearly a thought or "pre" crime. The police chief essentially admitted that there was no "true threat" or incitement of imminent lawless action.

I'm in favor of giving the school administrator, police chief/officers, and district attorney 40 public lashings followed by a good tarring and feathering.

One glossed-over part of this story is that, despite the fact that this was not at all related to school, some narc of a kid saw it and notified school administrators, who then called the police.

...the stasi approves, I'm sure. "see something, say something" is way less innocuous than you think.

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Old May 3, 2013, 11:46 AM   #21
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One glossed-over part of this story is that, despite the fact that this was not at all related to school, some narc of a kid saw it and notified school administrators, who then called the police.
Yeah, this statement by the Superintendent and the police Chief made me shake my head and roll my eyes. This is really none of the schools's business. Schools acting as some sort of law enforcement agency is a disturbing trend.

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"We believe that all students deserve to learn in a welcoming, non-threatening environment free from intimidation and physical threats,”
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Old May 3, 2013, 12:23 PM   #22
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Are we sure he wasn't arrested for looking and sounding like a douche?
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Old May 6, 2013, 12:45 PM   #23
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Are we sure he wasn't arrested for looking and sounding like a douche?
Unfortunately that is not a crime.






Yet.

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Old May 6, 2013, 01:01 PM   #24
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Yet.
I've always been a bit ahead of my time...
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Old May 6, 2013, 07:34 PM   #25
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Listening to a local talk radio show and they are talking about the recent revelations that all, yes ALL, domestic digital communications, phone calls, emails, texts, etc. are stored for future use. Granted much of it would be inadmissible in a court of law, but it is there for them should they want access to it. Seems they have listened to the Boston Bomber Tsarnaev and his wifes phone calls immediately before and after the bombing to determine her involvement. Here is a link discussing this digital storage issue.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ded-fbi-boston

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