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Old Jan 19, 2013, 10:03 AM   #1
cjcastan
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It seems strange to criticize Groceís Ohio defense, considering that the Bobcats were the very best defensive unit in the MAC last season. But how they achieved those excellent defensive numbers was concerning. For one, there was a bit of luck, as MAC opponents shot under 30 percent from beyond the arc. Still though, this would have been a good defense even if that number was a few points higher. The real concern I had was the fact that Groceís defenses were built on forcing turnovers. On over a quarter of their conference opponentsí possessions, the Bobcats took the ball away. Thatís an extremely high figure, but itís also extremely unrealistic in the Big Ten.
I haven't seen enough of JG's Ohio teams to make a system judgement, I think we all know our rebounding woes for the Illini are more of a product of personnel this season at least.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 10:36 AM   #2
DaytonIllini
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I haven't seen enough of JG's Ohio teams to make a system judgement, I think we all know our rebounding woes for the Illini are more of a product of personnel this season at least.
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And John Groce’s Ohio teams didn’t rebound.
We are at the bottom of the Big 10 in rebounding in almost every category.

Rebounding is usually a system thing. If Groce's teams could not rebound as the author suggests at OU, there is little to make you think that his scheme will allow us to rebound at Illinois.

Let's look back and see how they rebounded under Groce.

2008-09 10th in conference
2009-10 1st in conference
2010-11 3rd in conference
2011-12 2nd in conference

That suggests to me that Groce's defensive system is not flawed fundamentally when it comes to rebounding.

Next, the author implies that steals are some kind of statistical fluke. So how did Groce do with steals in his years?

2008-09 5th in conference
2009-10 4th in conference
2010-11 2nd in conference
2011-12 1st in conference

It appears that his system/recruits are designed to force turnovers.

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Old Jan 19, 2013, 11:13 AM   #3
WesterveltVictoryCigar
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Next, the author implies that steals are some kind of statistical fluke. So how did Groce do with steals in his years?

2008-09 5th in conference
2009-10 4th in conference
2010-11 2nd in conference
2011-12 1st in conference

It appears that his system/recruits are designed to force turnovers.
Josh's contention is not that Groce's system doesn't try to force turnovers, rather he's suggesting that it's not likely to be a successful strategy in the B1G.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 03:08 PM   #4
DaytonIllini
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Josh's contention is not that Groce's system doesn't try to force turnovers, rather he's suggesting that it's not likely to be a successful strategy in the B1G.
Yes. I don't think he supports that with any data but the rebounding data I posted is flawed. As I was looking at the TO data I see that I was posting total rebounds as opposed to rebound/game. That obviously isn't a good way to look at rebounds given different #'s of games for various teams.

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Old Jan 19, 2013, 03:38 PM   #5
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It's a bit of a stretch, but there doesn't seem to much much of a correlation between the best B1G teams at forcing turnovers and the best defensive teams.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 08:27 PM   #6
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One of my beefs with our defense, and this happened under Weber for the most part but I still see it with Egwu, our 5 always hedges on high ball screen 25 feet from the basket and is then out of position to guard the paint or gets switched to guarding the PG for big mismatch. Now I realize this is becoming more common and I believe Augustine was the master of it and it worked well for that 05 team but it's not working now. Plus it gets cheap fouls on NE. There's not alot you can do about the hot shooting of our opponents besides getting a hand in their face. Like most of this game defense, rebounding, ect.. is effort. I recall during the early games praising our defense and the intesity we brought to the court. I just don't see the same team I saw against BU and Gonzaga.

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Old Jan 20, 2013, 10:11 AM   #7
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One of my beefs with our defense, and this happened under Weber for the most part but I still see it with Egwu, our 5 always hedges on high ball screen 25 feet from the basket and is then out of position to guard the paint or gets switched to guarding the PG for big mismatch. Now I realize this is becoming more common and I believe Augustine was the master of it and it worked well for that 05 team but it's not working now. Plus it gets cheap fouls on NE. There's not alot you can do about the hot shooting of our opponents besides getting a hand in their face. Like most of this game defense, rebounding, ect.. is effort. I recall during the early games praising our defense and the intesity we brought to the court. I just don't see the same team I saw against BU and Gonzaga.
I made this comment last year and the year before. I was told that it was because of our players. Tisdale was comfortable that far away. Leonard 1.) Learned from Tisdale/Weber 2.) It is the scheme 3.) He also likes the outside shot

I am not sure what it is. I get sick of our bigs outside. I do not think a big posting at 20-25 feet is a good idea either. I know it was a staple of BW's motion offense. I STILL do not like it. Especially when you have a team (us) with almost no interior presence.

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Old Jan 20, 2013, 10:27 AM   #8
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I made this comment last year and the year before. I was told that it was because of our players. Tisdale was comfortable that far away. Leonard 1.) Learned from Tisdale/Weber 2.) It is the scheme 3.) He also likes the outside shot

I am not sure what it is. I get sick of our bigs outside. I do not think a big posting at 20-25 feet is a good idea either. I know it was a staple of BW's motion offense. I STILL do not like it. Especially when you have a team (us) with almost no interior presence.
But what the guy you quoted was talking about was defense,

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Old Jan 20, 2013, 10:35 AM   #9
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It's about the players, not the system. When these kids play the way Groce wants them to, we beat Top 15 teams. When we revert to one-on-one play, we lose. It's that simple.
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Old Jan 20, 2013, 11:11 AM   #10
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Josh's contention is not that Groce's system doesn't try to force turnovers, rather he's suggesting that it's not likely to be a successful strategy in the B1G.
Ya because Purdue, Wisky and MSU don't force turnovers in the B1G. Flawed theory.
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Old Jan 20, 2013, 11:42 AM   #11
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Ya because Purdue, Wisky and MSU don't force turnovers in the B1G. Flawed theory.
Purdue did for a few years when Painter took over, not so much recently. Wisconsin and MSU do not force many turnovers, both rank in the bottom half of D1 teams annually. And those turnover #s drop in B1G play compared to non-conference games, no surprise there.
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Old Jan 20, 2013, 02:20 PM   #12
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It's about the players, not the system. When these kids play the way Groce wants them to, we beat Top 15 teams. When we revert to one-on-one play, we lose. It's that simple.
Given that, then the problem doesn't fundamentally seem to be a lack of talent or they wouldn't be capable of beating multiple top 15 teams. How many times can the players be allowed to "revert" to one-on-one play before it's at least in part a case of the coaching staff not preparing them/getting them to do what they ask that's the problem?

When is it their responsibility and not the prior staff's mistakes?
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Old Jan 20, 2013, 02:36 PM   #13
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Given that, then the problem doesn't fundamentally seem to be a lack of talent or they wouldn't be capable of beating multiple top 15 teams. How many times can the players be allowed to "revert" to one-on-one play before it's at least in part a case of the coaching staff not preparing them/getting them to do what they ask that's the problem?

When is it their responsibility and not the prior staff's mistakes?
JG is in a quandary. He's coaching the guys to trust the system, but when they don't, what's his other option? Benching BP and TA means we have no PGs on the floor. Maybe at some point he'll have to send a clearer message to them like Knight did starting 5 frosh at the AH against UI back in the mid-1980s when he was disgusted by his starters' poor play in prior games. Right now, he seems resigned to continuing to teach them, implore them, encourage them and challenge them when they resort to hero plays, without benching them.
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Old Jan 20, 2013, 04:19 PM   #14
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Josh's contention is not that Groce's system doesn't try to force turnovers, rather he's suggesting that it's not likely to be a successful strategy in the B1G.
Which is flawed a bit as well. If Groce were trying to force turnovers in the B1G with the same type of athletes he had at Ohio then sure. However, the types of players he'll (likely) get at Illinois will be better basketball players than the ones at Ohio so they should be able to execute his defensive scheme better.
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Old Jan 20, 2013, 04:21 PM   #15
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JG is in a quandary. He's coaching the guys to trust the system, but when they don't, what's his other option? Benching BP and TA means we have no PGs on the floor. Maybe at some point he'll have to send a clearer message to them like Knight did starting 5 frosh at the AH against UI back in the mid-1980s when he was disgusted by his starters' poor play in prior games. Right now, he seems resigned to continuing to teach them, implore them, encourage them and challenge them when they resort to hero plays, without benching them.
Don't bring that up to a couple poster or they'll say you lack basketball knowledge.

However, I agree. You either keep playing the guys who have demonstrated great success early but have seemingly slipped back into bad habits and have shown a lack of effort or you roll with guys who may bring more energy but haven't proven much, if anything, when you've played them before in terms of being able to help the team.
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 08:36 AM   #16
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JG is in a quandary. He's coaching the guys to trust the system, but when they don't, what's his other option? Benching BP and TA means we have no PGs on the floor. Maybe at some point he'll have to send a clearer message to them like Knight did starting 5 frosh at the AH against UI back in the mid-1980s when he was disgusted by his starters' poor play in prior games. Right now, he seems resigned to continuing to teach them, implore them, encourage them and challenge them when they resort to hero plays, without benching them.
Sounds familiar, honestly.
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 09:01 AM   #17
HeartofaChampion
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Sounds familiar, honestly.
Yep, only difference is JG didn't recruit these guys, but +1 otherwise.
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 09:34 AM   #18
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Your only choice, IMO, is to bench them. Paul is a prime culprit going from an All-American type player the first dozen or so games to a guy who won't make all conference. His stats may look good in some of the Big Ten games, but they would be deceiving as he padded them quite a bit against Purdue and NW late in the game.
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 09:50 AM   #19
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Your only choice, IMO, is to bench them. Paul is a prime culprit going from an All-American type player the first dozen or so games to a guy who won't make all conference. His stats may look good in some of the Big Ten games, but they would be deceiving as he padded them quite a bit against Purdue and NW late in the game.
I recall at one time I thought Weber needed to bench DMac for basically same scenario. Weber did not, iirc, and I believe is when he lost hold of the team and really never got it back. I'm no coach, but if your going to sit someone to prove a point, Neb game is the time to it.

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