War Chant has been retired

[Rob07]

From the N-G link you provided: "Some anti-Chief activists deride it as a pseudo-Native American chant." So that will probably be the next target, since it surely offends somebody, somewhere. Fighting Illini can't stay, either. That's just as bad as "Warriors". "Hail to the Orange" is probably safe...no, wait, isn't Orange associated with the Protestant faction in Northern Ireland? The idea that these people are going to be content after getting their latest scalp (pun intended) is bonkers.

You're suggesting that this is a slippery slope and that people on the other side of the debate from you do not care about the facts.

I'm suggesting that most people are willing to listen to the facts and there is in fact a very bright line to separate things to keep from things not to keep: when the tradition was created, was it created in reference to the Chief Illiniwek mascot (or "symbol" for the snowflake PC police we have around here)?

Fighting Illini name -- nope, predates Chief, reference is to students that served in WWI
Hail to the Orange -- no reference to Native Americans
Illinois Loyalty -- official school song from 1906, predates Chief, includes "Oskee Wow Wow" cheer
Oskee Wow Wow -- official fight song from 1911, sounds like it could be problematic, but historical references indicate that it was used as a cheer at Illinois and other schools with no Native American tie

In contrast:
Chief Illiniwek -- originated 1926
War Chant -- not clear when originated but definitely post-Chief and a reference to Chief Illiniwek
March of the Illini -- written specifically for Chief Illiniwek's performances in 1926
Three-In-One routine -- created specifically for Chief Illiniwek's dance

Seems pretty straightforward to me in light of the facts.

 

[Deleted member 533939]

If this is true I won't be renewing my tickets or donation. Granted it wasn't the best 3rd down noise maker but it could be used at other times.

Sorry, but you're going to stop supporting the team because of something like this? Cutting off donations makes sense, but I'm not buying the idea that you'll stop attending games.

 

[Ulysses Everett McGill]

... traditions of what? Losing seasons? Half-full stadiums? I'm pretty ok with breaking those links to the past. Win games and the new culture will take care of itself.

Yeah, losing seasons and half full stadiums, that's what the other poster meant by traditions. If/when we ever start winning games, after decades of horse bleep football, let's blow off all or much of what the (many multiple generations of) fans who have actually attended games and supported the school's team through all those years hold dear. Shove a new mascot and new cheers and chants down their throats, tell 'em what's OK to cheer and when right on the scoreboard, what music is Ok to play and how to react to it. If they don't like it they can leave cuz we'll have so many new fans to replace them coming from ... somewhere, plus we'll have a new culture! It'll be great.

 

[illinisince99]

What?... LOL! After the Robert Lee situation, I can't say that I'm surprised at all by this though.

We know that 90+% of native americans aren't offended by the team name "Redskins", so I think we can safely extrapolate that out to conclude that 99.9% of native americans aren't offended by clapping. Great decision guys :clappy:

After I post this, I'm gonna instantly order old chief logo tee shirts for my entire family. The PC police needs to get a life.

 

[Ransom Stoddard]

Its degrading to my Greek Heritage. I demand MSU and USC remove any half naked statues and cartoon mascots of my proud heritage from their campuses immediately

Just pointing out that Troy (Trojans) was in what is now Turkey, not Greece. Therefore you can only be 1/2 as outraged as you were.

Three-in-one is going to be next, and next thing you know kids will get expelled for crossing their arms during Loyalty. I'm on both sides of the fence on this deal--the "old" traditions have so much opposition (much of it manufactured IMO) that they're going to be gone sooner or later, but there's nothing queued up to replace them. Part of that lack of replacement is because of curmudgeonly people like myself that don't want to engage with a new set of traditions, but that's the way it's going to have to be.

 

[wma500]

In contrast:
Chief Illiniwek -- originated 1926
War Chant -- not clear when originated but definitely post-Chief and a reference to Chief Illiniwek
March of the Illini -- written specifically for Chief Illiniwek's performances in 1926
Three-In-One routine -- created specifically for Chief Illiniwek's dance

Seems pretty straightforward to me in light of the facts.

So why wasn't this done back in '07? And what's changed about War Chant and 3 in 1 now, such that (at least for now) War Chant needs to be "retired"? Have we become more morally aware of the song now than we were 10 years ago? Nope. Is it played any differently or does it include any more direct symbolism than it did 10 years ago? Nope.

Who woke up today and decided it needed to go?

U of I's administration made their bed with this stuff, now they have to lie in it. In the meantime they've done nothing to try to replace what's been tossed aside, or even create new traditions. That's just allowed this whole thing to fester for 10 years and when some spineless group of admins wake up today and decide War Chant needs to go, this is what happens.

 

[champaignchris]

While removing the historical symbols, songs, and tradition of the university there has been no creativity in finding replacement that are unique or that instill pride in the community...

I agree that this issue, the lack of any real creativity or even effort in replacing what's been taken away is probably the biggest problem. There is very little that makes going to Illinois football games special or different from going to any other football game.

On a completely separate note... the loudspeakers have been playing Sugar Hill Gang's "Apache" at the beginning of the 4th quarter for the last several years. Why is that ok and the "War Chant" isn't?

For reference.

 

[Deleted member 533939]

It's a bad song with a fake Indian theme.

 

[battle]

the logical endgame is to simply disavow all things associated with native Americans, change the name of the university, etc. as well as lobby the state govt to change the name of state, and all cities, rivers, parks, etc. and when that succeeds change all names in the country - names associated with any culture or person, etc. why wait? after all, names can't possibly honor anything, they can only be offensive. yet, throughout history, names and labels first used derisively were often a rallying call and these labels not only became a badge of courage but garnered respect

for those that don't see why we're upset over this - then why did it bother the offended group so much - aren't there more important issues

 

[BirdDog9048]

It's a bad song with a fake Indian theme.

What differentiates a song with a fake Native American theme and a song with a real Native American theme?

 

[Rob07]

So why wasn't this done back in '07? And what's changed about War Chant and 3 in 1 now, such that (at least for now) War Chant needs to be "retired"? Have we become more morally aware of the song now than we were 10 years ago? Nope. Is it played any differently or does it include any more direct symbolism than it did 10 years ago? Nope.

I don't disagree, it would have been better to rip the bandage off in '07. And we may as well get rid of the 3-in-1 now since I agree that pressure will cause it to be eliminated somewhere down the line. That said, I don't think that's an argument for keeping either of them. Nor is it an argument that the DIA's interests, the UIUC's interests, or the students' interests are served by allowing this to fester longer.

 

[Deleted member 533939]

What differentiates a song with a fake Native American theme and a song with a real Native American theme?

It's not authentic. It was created by the band at a basketball game back in the 70s. That's the definition of fake.

 

[BirdDog9048]

It's not authentic. It was created by the band at a basketball game back in the 70s. That's the definition of fake.

Hypothetically, what if one of the people involved in creating it was Native American?

 

[Deleted member 533939]

Hypothetically, what if one of the people involved in creating it was Native American?

Then it wouldn't sound like some cheesy song written for a Hollywood movie.

 

[robirds]

Not cancelling tickets. But they for sure will never see a dime from this alumni.

Ditto. Pathetic. University has gone to the crapper the last decade in sports and this constant political bs.

See ya.

 

[BirdDog9048]

Then it wouldn't sound like some cheesy song written for a Hollywood movie.

Given that the band's instrumentation doesn't exactly lend itself towards proper recreation of a typical Native American war chant, I honestly think they do a pretty good job of it.

 

[miggytorres]

From a branding standpoint, I would be curious to see what someone outside of the state of Illinois thinks about the UofI football program.
- No more Chief
- No more War Chant
- Uniforms are never the same
- No consistent logo - Block I? Shield? Wtf?

Not going to wade in on removing another identifiable piece of the UofI football experience, just disappointed that nothing has been done to create a brand identity around this program.

 

[robirds]

THIS absolutely SUCKS!

I've been an Illini loving fan for more than 40 years. I have bled Orange and Blue, BUT the decisions the University is making makes me sick to my stomach and honestly is making me lose a bit of my loyalties. Seeing them succumb to the opinions of a few when the masses LOVE the Chief and everything associated with it, is incredibly frustrating. YES, you can't make EVERYONE happy, I get that, but naming a University after your heritage, and then honoring that heritage each and every day, IS NOT AN INSULT!!! It's the biggest compliment one could get!!!

This just boils my blood......

This

 

[wma500]

From a branding standpoint, I would be curious to see what someone outside of the state of Illinois thinks about the UofI football program.
- No more Chief
- No more War Chant
- Uniforms are never the same
- No consistent logo - Block I? Shield? Wtf?

Not going to wade in on removing another identifiable piece of the UofI football experience, just disappointed that nothing has been done to create a brand identity around this program.

Having never been to Illinois games prior to 2014, I can tell you that in the last 3 years the most identifiable things I see at games are (in no order):

Dick Butkus
The vocal chant of "Chief" during some non-descript band formation at halftime
Will Farrell
Otis Day and the Knights
War Chant on 3rd downs
Hail to the Orange
Gene Honda's voice
John Deere Ads

 

[mattcoldagelli]

just disappointed that nothing has been done to create a brand identity around this program.

It's almost as if there's a faction of people stubbornly insisting we remain half-pregnant with a retired brand identity.

 

[BirdDog9048]

It's almost as if there's a faction of people stubbornly insisting we remain half-pregnant with a retired brand identity.

Blaming the people that have no decision making power for the lack of replacement branding is ridiculous. The University has the power to make unilateral decisions on this, and yet, they have presented nothing in over a decade.

 

[Charleston]

It's almost as if there's a faction of people stubbornly insisting we remain half-pregnant with a retired brand identity.

That faction is probably much larger than the group which is "offended" by an instrumental song with no lyrics.

 

[ILL_INI]

Given that the band's instrumentation doesn't exactly lend itself towards proper recreation of a typical Native American war chant, I honestly think they do a pretty good job of it.

It's my understanding that the type of Native American music that Hollywood (and Wild West shows before that) used as a "war chant" typically has nothing to do with war. What "typical Native American war chant" that you have heard is actually authentic? And by authentic, I don't include some sideshow that a Native American played for tourists, which I also consider to be fake.

 

[sbillini]

This one's an interesting one. I was at UofI during the peak of the chief controversy (graduated in 06). It was definitely an interesting time. But, my perspective is simple:

1. There's a difference between honoring a people/culture, valuing it, and furthering it vs. creating your own culture around it with the pretense that you're honoring it. With chief Illiniwek, I felt you couldn't truly honor the Illini tribe given that the Chief was primarily derived from the Peoria tribe (since the Illini didn't exist anymore). Further, even the Peoria didn't support the chief (granted, there's viable question as to if that matters per me previous point). As a minority born in another country, I'm totally OK with people portraying my culture in a respectful way that does so with a reasonable amount of authenticity and is in good faith. If not, I'd rather you not do anything at all.

2. In the case of the chant, I don't think the chant is trying to honor or portray the illini tribe. It's a song with no direct reference to any particular native american culture. Yes it sounds "stereotypical" native american, but every song in the world has roots in other types of music. There's no pretense here, so there's nothing to really question beyond does it serve its intended purpose. It may not do so on third downs, but that's not a reason to retire it.

Now, will banning the song cause me to stop my monthly donation to the school and make it (very slightly) more difficult for future generations to receive the quality education I got from UofI? Particularly since those ahead of me gave that allowed me to do the same is just ridiculous. I agree that the chant is part of a cultural identify of the school (or at least the athletic program), and the school hasn't done a good job of repairing that identity, but that's fixable, folks. And picking up the soccer ball and running home kicking and screaming, while it may be effective to some degree if enough people do it, isn't the best solution.

 

[KrushCow31]

Still nobody has pointed out one tradition or culture aspect that sets us apart from any other generic school other than the 3 and 1? What connects us from generation to generation? Do I need to list off the notre dame ones to make everyone feel bad?

Someone please name some that the University hasn't killed.