2018 Off Season Thread

[MadSeason]

I may be in the minority, but the Fletch stuff...is a bit much. I know strength and conditioning is important, but basketball is also a skills game and some of this stuff can get in the way of behaviors learned over the course of a decade.

I would say it's been less a matter of our being out-athleted and more a matter of us being out-skilled. Over the last 10 years, almost regardless of competition, how many times have we been able to say with conviction that we have the best shooter on the floor? Best dribbler? Best passer? It's rare. And that speaks not just to who we are recruiting but what we are doing with them once they get here.

I have to agree. Similar to the Coach Lou days under Zook. Yeah I think the guy was good but how hard is it to make Rejus Benn and Martez Williams look like Greek Gods?

 

[Obelix]

Yeah I think the guy was good but how hard is it to make Rejus Benn and Martez Williams look like Greek Gods?

Not sure about Greek Gods, but I sure hope we can turn some of our players into Greek Freaks.

BTW, great piece on 60-mins this past Sunday.

 

[Newman]

I may be in the minority, but the Fletch stuff...is a bit much. I know strength and conditioning is important, but basketball is also a skills game and some of this stuff can get in the way of behaviors learned over the course of a decade.

I would say it's been less a matter of our being out-athleted and more a matter of us being out-skilled. Over the last 10 years, almost regardless of competition, how many times have we been able to say with conviction that we have the best shooter on the floor? Best dribbler? Best passer? It's rare. And that speaks not just to who we are recruiting but what we are doing with them once they get here.

Agreed. We had good players but no player was excellent in any specific area so that's why my stance isn't that we lacked talent but we failed to have a well rounded team. The problem with having players like this was that it made us susceptible to long scoring draughts, made it hard to get stops and the lack of athleticism made it possible for us to lose to almost anyone even when we had more talent than the other team.

I think Fletch has been made to seem like a bigger factor than he really is, but I do think he's damn good at what he does. I just get the feeling that he was forced into shaping players into versions that we needed for our holes as opposed to complementing their strengths.

 

[MadSeason]

Not sure about Greek Gods, but I sure hope we can turn some of our players into Greek Freaks.

BTW, great piece on 60-mins this past Sunday.

I'll take one or two of those:thumb:

 

[mattcoldagelli]

Agreed. We had good players but no player was excellent in any specific area so that's why my stance isn't that we lacked talent but we failed to have a well rounded team. The problem with having players like this was that it made us susceptible to long scoring draughts, made it hard to get stops and the lack of athleticism made it possible for us to lose to almost anyone even when we had more talent than the other team.

I think Fletch has been made to seem like a bigger factor than he really is, but I do think he's damn good at what he does. I just get the feeling that he was forced into shaping players into versions that we needed for our holes as opposed to complementing their strengths.

I'm going even one step further and saying that the focus on getting everybody as yoked as possible is possibly interfering with their natural inclination when it comes to things like shooting the basketball.

 

[MadSeason]

I'm going even one step further and saying that the focus on getting everybody as yoked as possible is possibly interfering with their natural inclination when it comes to things like shooting the basketball.

Yoked. I haven't heard that phrase in a long time. Nicely done

 

[illiniguy24]

One of the most frustrating things from the past few years is that the lack of athleticism which made it a pretty boring brand of basketball under Groce. I'm sure I'm forgetting a player or two, but it seemed like the only above average d1 athlete we had was Nunn. Even when we played cupcakes, we seemed to be outmatched physically despite Fletcher's effort to make below average athletes look menacing. We've lost a lot in the past decade but my concern wasn't with the lack of talent when it came to stars and rankings but the terrible blend of athleticism and skill.

+10000

When was the last time we had a top 10 play on sports center? It’s definitely been frustrating having so many years go by without players that can change the momentum of a game with one big play, more specifically a dunk. Even Kendrick Nunns dunk on Purdue left me wanting more.

Hopefully players like Ayo and Kane can posterize someone this year and get us back on track [emoji51]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[RickBB]

I'm going even one step further and saying that the focus on getting everybody as yoked as possible is possibly interfering with their natural inclination when it comes to things like shooting the basketball.

I think that as a fan base we are more aware of it because we follow this program....and the athletic department does a great job of showing "behind the scenes stuff" both via traditional and social media. Strength and conditioning is a major emphasis across all colleges across all sports.

We just haven't been very good at basketball for the last 10 years.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

Agree with this thought. Everyone take an impartial look at rosters of other programs. Most sophomores and beyond and pretty well defined and many are "yoked."

 

[mattcoldagelli]

Agree with this thought. Everyone take an impartial look at rosters of other programs. Most sophomores and beyond and pretty well defined and many are "yoked."

Heck, isn't that a complaint when we talk about our young guys going up against other BIG competition, that we aren't big enough, strong enough? Even wings and guards need to strength to finish at the rim.

I am trusting Fletch and other strength coaches on this issue. He is not trying to turn bball players into BIG linebackers, just getting them strength to compete at the highest level possible.

Second and Chalmers beat me to it, but I would say "Sort of?"

Some guys are and some guys aren't. Maybe RickBB is right that because 1) we're up close to this, we see it and 2) we haven't had much in terms of on-court success, so the Body By Fletch stuff makes its way to the surface more than it would otherwise.

But look at the August Mahoney kid we just offered. His dad has been going full Marinovich on his jump shot since he was in grade school - are you certain that there would be no deleterious side effects to an all-out quest to reach a certain BMI number? I'm not.

 

[kaptain80]

I may be in the minority, but the Fletch stuff...is a bit much. I know strength and conditioning is important, but basketball is also a skills game and some of this stuff can get in the way of behaviors learned over the course of a decade.

I would say it's been less a matter of our being out-athleted and more a matter of us being out-skilled. Over the last 10 years, almost regardless of competition, how many times have we been able to say with conviction that we have the best shooter on the floor? Best dribbler? Best passer? It's rare. And that speaks not just to who we are recruiting but what we are doing with them once they get here.

Weightlifting is easy to control in a "what gets measured gets managed" sort of way. Track your max, etc. Many of the other skills don't fit that model and become secondary. That's one way things go off the rails in the real life, eh? If your manager focuses on the easy numbers and the more tacit things get sidelined (or worst case, forbidden), then some of the individual pieces of a project are optimized but the whole project is unbalanced and suboptimal.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

I'm going even one step further and saying that the focus on getting everybody as yoked as possible is possibly interfering with their natural inclination when it comes to things like shooting the basketball.

Yup. The bulkiness and stiffness that naturally develops as a result of powerlifting is actively harmful to basketball ability. That's what makes guys like LeBron James so extraordinary, that they're able to carry that amount of muscle mass while retaining the balletic fluidity needed to play the game at that level.

Fletch gets guys motivated to put work and max effort in at the gym, and at the college level that's half the battle. And posting guys having new squat and bench maxes makes for good social media fodder. But that is not what the focus should be in basketball strength and conditioning training.

I would say it's been less a matter of our being out-athleted and more a matter of us being out-skilled. Over the last 10 years, almost regardless of competition, how many times have we been able to say with conviction that we have the best shooter on the floor? Best dribbler? Best passer? It's rare. And that speaks not just to who we are recruiting but what we are doing with them once they get here.

It's kinda both, right? And I couldn't agree more that it's what we're doing with them when they get here. You look at the post-Dee era and ask yourself how many guys really became fully realized basketball players who could impose themselves on games at Illinois and it's an excruciatingly short list. Warren Carter for one year. Chester Frazier for one year. Meyers Leonard for one year. Leron Black for one year. Definitely Malcolm Hill. Ray Rice is arguable, Brandon Paul was inconsistently that guy throughout his career. McCamey (and anyone who disagrees is wrong). Mike Davis wasn't dominant but he was pretty complete in that way.

The theme at Illinois on the other hand has been frustrating enigmas like Brian Randle or Mike Tisdale or Michael Finke who obviously had abilities that others lack, but whose careers were totally defined by their weaknesses.

Programs like Michigan and Purdue and Wisconsin have an endless supply of Mike Davis' yet rarely a Brian Randle.

And you look back at previous eras at Illinois and there were obviously megawatt talents like Frankie and Dee and whatnot, but those teams were great because guys like Archibald and Bradford and Powell developed into complete, well-rounded guys that could dominate a game but also never took things off the table.

The older I get and the more college basketball I watch, the more consequential and determinative this kind of stuff appears relative to the recruiting hysteria.

 

[McBrush]

We need players to fit the BU system. Culture, talent, basketball IQ and fundamentals are all important, but I would say talent is the least important of the four. Don't get me wrong talent is important and can be the catalyst to go to the next level.

Look at the Knicks during the Phil Jackson era for an example of a culture breakdown when trying to run an offensive system. It was not the players could not play basketball, but they just did not fit that style of play and would overthink. They would frequently have players give up on the system and have at least one player giving up on the team looking to get out. People would blame the triangle as being outdated, but they are used to hero ball and chuck a 3 offense.

I have my own judgement out on BU offensive and defensive system and his ability to coach, but I do think that we need players to fit his system and who want to win at all cost. If players want to transfer best of luck to them somewhere else because if you are not committed you are not helping.

 

[McBrush]

Players like the Fletch stuff so why change it. They need strength and conditioning. I do wonder if some players focus on it too much and lose time in the gym practicing basketball, dribbling and getting up shots. Fundamentals are lacking now a days (and get off my lawn)

 

[kaptain80]

I mean, if he’s saying that stuff after a huge win against IU, what was he telling the guys sfter bad losses to Georgia Tech, NW, or Winthrop? (Just to name a few)

 

[IlliniBrave75]

Jamie Shaw‏ @JamieShaw5 2m2 minutes ago


Miles Bridges announces he is entering the @NBA draft & signing with Rich Paul (@KlutchSports)Congrats @MilesBridges01 & Good Luck

 

[MainelyIllini]

Jamie Shaw‏ @JamieShaw5 2m2 minutes ago


Miles Bridges announces he is entering the @NBA draft & signing with Rich Paul (@KlutchSports)Congrats @MilesBridges01 & Good Luck

Congrats to Miles! Now he can officially pay back the $40 dinner with his own money....

 

[STLflyinIllini]

:smash::rage:
"Martin had far more success with inherited players than Underwood did this season, so he won a lot more games and has more continuity heading into next season."
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/colu...cle_56855a82-8332-5527-9192-3c9c51d5f457.html

Not surprising at all. I live in STL now, and the media is definitely pro Miznoz.
Gordon, who wrote this is a Miznoz alum.
That's why it always brings me great joy to see the Tigers fail at anything and everything.

 

[Mike]

are you certain that there would be no deleterious side effects to an all-out quest to reach a certain BMI number? I'm not.

Athletic ability isn't everything in basketball, but come on. Just look at all the athletic freaks in the NBA to know that it's important. Look at the olympic track and field athletes that run and jump the best in the world for that matter. These folks aren't weak or out of shape. They are genetic freaks, highly trained, ripped, and dripping with functional explosive muscle (not large watery bodybuilding style muscle). Giving an athlete a more powerful engine with more work capacity is not a bad thing.

Having said that...IMHO we were relatively not as skilled as the opposing team on many nights this last season.

 

[NeaforThree]

But I just don't know how you can be an Illini fan the past 15 years and still cling to the idea that college basketball is largely single-factor determined according to talent levels. I was on your side of this once, but everything I have seen here and nationally points me in a different direction.

Yeah, I used to be 100% in the "Jimmys and Joes beats X's and O's" camp when it came to how to revive our program, but after realizing how much it hurt Bruce when he started chasing recruiting stars and players that weren't fits for his system (and seeing what he's done since going to K-State), and what it was like when Groce...er...looked like he didn't even have a functioning offensive system at all despite having one of the best Illini players we've had on his teams, I've realized its probably a healthy mix of the two, possibly leaning towards coaching and a well defined system.

This is why Finke and Tejon leaving does not disappoint me or alarm me AT ALL. Even if you replace them with 3 star recruits or grad transfers, if they are the exact type of players that BU wants for his system and has had success with in the past, it should be a net positive for us. BU even made a point to say when he was hired that there might be some head scratching offers and recruitments to players we wouldn't normally think of coming here but he has a system, playing culture, whatever you want to call it that he builds for and obviously Tejon and Finke were not up to snuff. This is why I brought up the example of Bob Huggins, he recruits a specific type of high school player and even before stepping foot on campus they know what kind of system and attitude they will need to be successful at that program to win. We are not there yet, but THAT is what we need to get to, and unfortunately for FInke and TJL, gently pushing them out is probably a step towards that.

This isn't to say that we are not heavily trying to upgrade the talent level. Hell we have a 5* top 25 Chicago point guard coming in who I would argue is the most talented recruit we've had since Groce took over. But it is a balance that I think will determine BU's success here.

 

[Ga65]

In 2015-16 we had 3 starters go down for the season (Abrams, Thorne, and Black) and still won 5 conference games. Didn't think it could get any worse but it seems we are working on it. Have to admit they are more exciting losses but to be a fan of the system must see dramatic improvement. Read an article that praised BU for sticking with his system despite not having the right players. Would have seemed more productive to me to adapt to the players he had if he was going wash them out anyway. Might have been less of a laughing stock in the conference.

 

[TCTORNADO]

Has Black signed with an agent??

 

[Tevo]

Would you consider the Loyola Chicago roster a "serious upgrade in talent"?

Reminder Loyolas best player couldn't hack in major conference basketball. We still need plenty of upgrades.

I think Loyola (and many other teams in the past) shows the value of chemistry -- between the players, between the players and coach, and between the players and the system. There are so many ways that things can NOT gel within the team and on the court, that usually there is some good and some bad, and fundamental athletic ability and basketball skills float to the top. But it's also possible to get a group of guys who just GET each other, and who buy in to what the coach wants, and who have the skills necessary to do THAT, and they look great. It's not about the player rankings at that point, or how high one guy can jump, it's about everything being in synch. And in the tournament, it's also about matchups, but even aside from the tournament, Loyola had a great season because of that chemistry.

For the Illini, if there were things getting in the way of that chemistry -- whether they are athletic deficiencies, personality conflicts, attitudinal incompatibilities, or whatever -- the team has to deal with them, and it's in everyone's best interest to identify them early and move on. That may mean short term pain, but hopefully it leads to long term success.

 

[FeelYourPaign]

I think Loyola (and many other teams in the past) shows the value of chemistry -- between the players, between the players and coach, and between the players and the system. There are so many ways that things can NOT gel within the team and on the court, that usually there is some good and some bad, and fundamental athletic ability and basketball skills float to the top. But it's also possible to get a group of guys who just GET each other, and who buy in to what the coach wants, and who have the skills necessary to do THAT, and they look great.

Yup, a magic season is just that, magic. When everything comes together, you just look fantastic. Its pretty rare and very special. Salute to Loyola and hoping we get our mojo back soon.

 

[kcib8130]

I am glad we had these two players on the team when we did. They were contributors in their time.

But at the end of the day, I'm not going to lose sleep about overhauling this roster. A roster that wins 4 B1G games and returns (at the time) everyone is hardly anything to hold on to.

There is 2 roster modes - reloading and rebuilding. I don't think we should be reloading.

Time to rebuild.