2018 St. Louis Cardinals

That’s fair. For me personally, it’s nostalgic. I think of Ozzie. The baby blues makes me think of whitey-ball.
I understand where you are coming from but since I have been a fan since the 60's, the 80's doesn't seem very nostalgic to me. Going back to the Gas House Gang teams in the 30's or the WW II era teams of the 40's is my definition of "nostalgia". But that is my opinion. I can live with you liking the new jersey.
 
The Cardinals' primary color IS red. In fact, that's where the name "Cardinals" came from. But dark blue has been their second color for years and years. For example, they have worn dark blue hats in the past, and still wear them sometimes on the road and always at home with a red bill on Sundays. Maybe baby ("victory") blue isn't the best, but it sure beats pink! :)
As I said to National, if you like it, I am happy for you. Go out and buy 2 or 3 jerseys.
I know they used blue on their caps back in the day. I was referring to the jersey itself.
As for pink, I am all in on that because it would more than likely be associated with breast cancer awareness. My mother, wife, daughter and sisters are worth it.
 
OK, so, if the Cards snuck in and signed Manny Machado, added a couple of quality bullpen arms (at least one lefty) through trades, to protect the 40 man roster, how would you feel? I know the big ticket focus has been on Harper and Donaldson, so, just looking for a switch up. No inside info, nor expectation. Just a thought. Despite his recent loss in reputation, he is a heck of a player, at a position of need (left side infield).
 
OK, so, if the Cards snuck in and signed Manny Machado, added a couple of quality bullpen arms (at least one lefty) through trades, to protect the 40 man roster, how would you feel? I know the big ticket focus has been on Harper and Donaldson, so, just looking for a switch up. No inside info, nor expectation. Just a thought. Despite his recent loss in reputation, he is a heck of a player, at a position of need (left side infield).
I don't feel comfortable with Machado. While every player to some degree or another needs to look out for himself, his future earning potential and his family, I can't help but feel Manny is more so than the majority of the players. It may not be fair of me to say so since I don't know him or how he relates with his teammates. He is still pretty young and it's not easy for someone who is only 26 to deal with all life is throwing at him. It's just a feeling I have that he may not be the best teammate and in the long run it might create problems that won't go away. With the amount of money he will get, there will not be an easy fix.
 
Well, that might change our plan B, or push all our chips in for Bryce (and not Machado hopefully...)
I really an not excited by picking up Goldy from the d-backs, since that moves Carp to 3rd. So, hopefully, you are right about being all in. Though, I am not as anti-Machado as I was a month ago. Maybe desperation sinking in. I think he will get 8, instead of 10-12 years, no real knowledge, just a hunch. Getting him from 26-34 has a whole lot of potential good there.
 
I think he will get 8, instead of 10-12 years, no real knowledge, just a hunch. Getting him from 26-34 has a whole lot of potential good there.
Bear in mind, that neither Harper nor Machado are likely to play out the entire length of their contract with whichever teams they sign with. They will both likely get opt-outs after 4-5 years. So assuming they maintain a good level of production, they'd likely opt out and get one more big contract before they get too much older than 30.

This is why I really hope (though don't realistically expect) that the Cards go all in to get Harper. Don't worry about paying a ton of money for a long time for an old outfielder because he will likely be gone before then.
 
Bear in mind, that neither Harper nor Machado are likely to play out the entire length of their contract with whichever teams they sign with. They will both likely get opt-outs after 4-5 years. So assuming they maintain a good level of production, they'd likely opt out and get one more big contract before they get too much older than 30.

This is why I really hope (though don't realistically expect) that the Cards go all in to get Harper. Don't worry about paying a ton of money for a long time for an old outfielder because he will likely be gone before then.
I do agree with this, frontload the contract a little, to give incentive to take a 4 year out. I think being able to get great players at 26, 27 will become more common, as teams play younger and younger stars, to save money. They get through arb younger than too. If that makes sense.
 
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The overall story is more than Cards but it is interesting.

Code:
World Series winners rarely go all in on one player
Share of payroll that went to the top paid player on World Series winning teams, since 2000

YEAR    W.S. WINNER    PAYROLL    TOP PAID PLAYER    SALARY    PAYROLL SHARE
2018    Red Sox               $233.8m      D. Price                       $30.0m    %12.8
2017    Astros                    124.3         C. Beltran                       16.0          12.9
2016    Cubs                      171.6        J. Lester                          25.0          14.6
2015    Royals                    112.9        A. Gordon                       14.0          12.4
2014    Giants                    149.1        M. Cain                            20.8         14.0
2013    Red Sox                154.6         J. Lackey                         16.0         10.3
2012    Giants                    131.4        B. Zito                              19.0         14.5
2011    Cardinals                109.0       M. Holliday                       17.0         15.6
2010    Giants                      96.3        B. Zito                              18.5         19.2
2009    Yankees                 201.4        A. Rodriguez                    33.0        16.4
2008    Phillies                     98.3        P. Burrell                          14.3         14.5
2007    Red Sox                 143.0       M. Ramirez                      17.0          11.9
2006    Cardinals                  88.9       A. Pujols                          14.0          15.8
2005    White Sox                 75.2       P. Konerko                         8.8          11.6
2004    Red Sox                  127.3      M. Ramirez                       22.5          17.7
2003    Marlins                      45.1       I. Rodriguez                     10.0          22.2
2002    Angels                      61.7       T. Salmon                           9.7          15.6
2001    Dbacks                     85.5       R. Johnson                       13.4          15.6
2000    Yankees                  107.6      B. Williams                        12.4          11.5
SOURCES: COT’S BASEBALL CONTRACTS
link to whole story
 
The overall story is more than Cards but it is interesting.

Code:
World Series winners rarely go all in on one player
Share of payroll that went to the top paid player on World Series winning teams, since 2000

YEAR    W.S. WINNER    PAYROLL    TOP PAID PLAYER    SALARY    PAYROLL SHARE
2018    Red Sox               $233.8m      D. Price                       $30.0m    %12.8
2017    Astros                    124.3         C. Beltran                       16.0          12.9
2016    Cubs                      171.6        J. Lester                          25.0          14.6
2015    Royals                    112.9        A. Gordon                       14.0          12.4
2014    Giants                    149.1        M. Cain                            20.8         14.0
2013    Red Sox                154.6         J. Lackey                         16.0         10.3
2012    Giants                    131.4        B. Zito                              19.0         14.5
2011    Cardinals                109.0       M. Holliday                       17.0         15.6
2010    Giants                      96.3        B. Zito                              18.5         19.2
2009    Yankees                 201.4        A. Rodriguez                    33.0        16.4
2008    Phillies                     98.3        P. Burrell                          14.3         14.5
2007    Red Sox                 143.0       M. Ramirez                      17.0          11.9
2006    Cardinals                  88.9       A. Pujols                          14.0          15.8
2005    White Sox                 75.2       P. Konerko                         8.8          11.6
2004    Red Sox                  127.3      M. Ramirez                       22.5          17.7
2003    Marlins                      45.1       I. Rodriguez                     10.0          22.2
2002    Angels                      61.7       T. Salmon                           9.7          15.6
2001    Dbacks                     85.5       R. Johnson                       13.4          15.6
2000    Yankees                  107.6      B. Williams                        12.4          11.5
SOURCES: COT’S BASEBALL CONTRACTS
link to whole story

Those numbers are kind of a factor of new baseball thinking (Red Sox, Astros, Cubs loaded up on cheaper players under team control), huge payrolls that couldn't possibly have somebody making more than ~15% of total payroll (Yankees, Red Sox), or just weird teams that got hot who really weren't that good (Royals, 2 of those Giants teams). So mostly it's just coincidence.

Either way, Harper would have to get close to $40MM/yr. to be close to 20% of the Cardinals total payroll, and he'll be safely under that. Even more for Giants, LA, Yankees, other noted potential suitors.
 
This is Springfield not St Louis. 2017 not 2018. A 3 base error not triple but it's a fun play to watch because of his hustle. Randy Arozarena is the top rated OF in the system at the #6 overall prospect. He's only 23 and it is possible he could grab a cup of coffee in The Show in 2019 maybe only in Sept. Then again Adolis Garcia, Lane Thomas and Justin Williams are all on the 40 man roster and he is not.
 
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Kelly and Weaver are expendable. But I hate giving up four players on a 1 year rental. If they re-sign Goldy I will feel better about burning assets.
 
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Dealt from positions of strength to get a new best hitter on the team. Kelly was going to back up for 1-2 more seasons, and by that point Knizer is ready (as good of a prospect as Kelly). Weaver might suck, he definitely took a huge step back last year. Andy Young is just a guy.

Seems like a win/ win. Diamondbacks get quantity, years of control, and ML ready assets, Cardinals get a 3-4 win upgrade for 2019 which is HUGE for their spot in the playoff odds. Takes them from mid 80s to high 80s projections, with more $ to spend (pleaseharperpleaseharperpleaseharper)
 
Dealt from positions of strength to get a new best hitter on the team. Kelly was going to back up for 1-2 more seasons, and by that point Knizer is ready (as good of a prospect as Kelly). Weaver might suck, he definitely took a huge step back last year. Andy Young is just a guy.

Seems like a win/ win. Diamondbacks get quantity, years of control, and ML ready assets, Cardinals get a 3-4 win upgrade for 2019 which is HUGE for their spot in the playoff odds. Takes them from mid 80s to high 80s projections, with more $ to spend (pleaseharperpleaseharperpleaseharper)
I understand all of that. If the goal is to only look at 1 year, it's a win for StL. If you want to look at 2-3 years it's probably a win/win. If you look at 4-5 years it's a AZ win. StL had players to burn. They got one of the best for extra parts. In a perfect world I wish it was a 2 or 3 year deal that's all.

And as I said to my son, maybe just maybe this makes StL look like a better destination for Harper. If so Goldy on a 1 and done is much more tolerable.

edit- btw, high 80's for wins don't get it done as their 88 this year demonstrated.
 
Dealt from positions of strength to get a new best hitter on the team. Kelly was going to back up for 1-2 more seasons, and by that point Knizer is ready (as good of a prospect as Kelly). Weaver might suck, he definitely took a huge step back last year. Andy Young is just a guy.

Seems like a win/ win. Diamondbacks get quantity, years of control, and ML ready assets, Cardinals get a 3-4 win upgrade for 2019 which is HUGE for their spot in the playoff odds. Takes them from mid 80s to high 80s projections, with more $ to spend (pleaseharperpleaseharperpleaseharper)
Agreed. Good trade regardless of whether or not they can extend him. He'll be 31 next year so a lot will depend on how many years he wants.
 
I'm perfectly fine with the trade. Kelly was going to be stuck for 2 years behind Molina and Knizner(sp?) has passed him up in the system. Weaver was disappointment to me as he had trouble going more than 5 innings. Young was gonna be stuck behind Wong.

Cardinals have been looking for a heart of the order guy since Holliday. Wouldn't surprise me if Goldschmidt eventually decides to sign an extension with St. Louis.
 
I love getting Goldschmidt, don't like Carp at 3rd. He is not terrible, and really, the metrics have him similar to Gyorko and anyone else on the roster. It just doesn't pass the eye test. I have no doubt that his bat will make up for it, I just prefer his glove at 1st. At the end of next season, the Cards have a choice to make, extend Goldschmidt or pick up Carp's option for 2020. Both in their 30's, I can't see them both on the same roster long term, unless the DH magically appears in the NL in 2020.
 
Both in their 30's, I can't see them both on the same roster long term, unless the DH magically appears in the NL in 2020.
I could see it happening with the next collective bargaining agreement. Which would start for the 2022 season, I think. The Union generally favors the DH and the owner’s are going to have to come up with some concessions this next time around because the players are PO’ed at how the current CBA is going.

Anyway, as a Cubs fan, I do not like seeing Goldschmidt on the Cardinals. Now that Joey Votto is showing his age, Goldschmidt is probably the best pure hitter in baseball. Dude can rake and unless Yadi gets hurt, you didn’t give up anything vital to get him for this year.

Goldschmidt will test the market. He’ll be hitting FA at 32 and this will be his last chance to cash in on prime dollars. Wouldn’t surprise me if he re-signed with the Cardinals after 2019 though. Seems like a good fit.

There are still problems with the Cards roster. Your starting pitching is inexperienced and thin. You don’t know how many innings you can count on from Martinez, Reyes and Wainright. Outside of Hicks, your bullpen isn’t impressive. Your second best hitter doesn’t really have a position. And I’m not sure what to make of your outfield.

That said, it’s early in the offseason, and I’d expect more moves that will fill in those holes and make everything a lot clearer. When it’s all said and done, I expect the Cardinals to be a lot better three months from now.
 
I could see it happening with the next collective bargaining agreement. Which would start for the 2022 season, I think. The Union generally favors the DH and the owner’s are going to have to come up with some concessions this next time around because the players are PO’ed at how the current CBA is going.

Anyway, as a Cubs fan, I do not like seeing Goldschmidt on the Cardinals. Now that Joey Votto is showing his age, Goldschmidt is probably the best pure hitter in baseball. Dude can rake and unless Yadi gets hurt, you didn’t give up anything vital to get him for this year.

Goldschmidt will test the market. He’ll be hitting FA at 32 and this will be his last chance to cash in on prime dollars. Wouldn’t surprise me if he re-signed with the Cardinals after 2019 though. Seems like a good fit.

There are still problems with the Cards roster. Your starting pitching is inexperienced and thin. You don’t know how many innings you can count on from Martinez, Reyes and Wainright. Outside of Hicks, your bullpen isn’t impressive. Your second best hitter doesn’t really have a position. And I’m not sure what to make of your outfield.

That said, it’s early in the offseason, and I’d expect more moves that will fill in those holes and make everything a lot clearer. When it’s all said and done, I expect the Cardinals to be a lot better three months from now.
I agree with inexperienced, but not thin. There are 21 pitchers currently on the 40 man, only 7 would consider themselves a RP, leaving 14 that have pitched in the majors, thinking that they are starters (give or take). I recently read an article that showed 11 that have a realistic shot at starting at some point in 2019, depending on injuries. 4 of those have a lot of experience, though one (Wainright) with likely too much experience. Mikolas, Martinez and Wacha have been around the block enough. Also, I agree with the "how many innings" comment, injuries are way too prevalent. But I am much more concerned with the bullpen. The problem there, is that from year to year, relievers go from "lights out" to pedestrian. Plenty of years, you go in feeling good about a pen and it collapses, and vise versa with pleasant surprises. I really expect at least 2 additions to the BP, one of which an established closer. An decent BP should have been worth 8-10 wins last year.
 
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