Cardinals Hot Stove

#51
Cardinals ship Adolis Garcia to Rangers for cash
The interest the Cardinals tried to stoke in some of their outfielders through trade talks at the Winter Meetings finally resulted in a pre-Christmas move Saturday that sent a young slugger to Texas.

To complete a series of roster moves that began by signing lefty Kwang Hyun Kim, the Cardinals sent outfielder Adolis Garcia to the Rangers in exchange for cash considerations. Garcia, 26, had been removed from the Cardinals' roster to make room for Kim, and that gave the Cardinals time to try and trade the righthanded hitter or slip him through waivers.
Cash. I would have preferred getting a decent Class A prospect.
I liked him but I never really saw the Cardinals talking seriously about him as a part of their 2020 or 2021 plans so I wondered where he would end up.
 
#52
Right now goldy has DeJong hitting behind him??? He won’t see a fastball out of the dirt. That’s one bad line up. Can’t believe this team can sell 3.2 mil. Tickets. There has to be another move, anybody see the projected starting lineup for. Opening day?
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#53
the Front Range
That lineup is a yawn. We’ve already seen that show, last year. I wanna see something more athletic, with some pop. Edman not starting is crazy. I wonder if we dip into our minor league talent that is rip for the big leagues? I don’t think Mo has any plans for any additional bats this offseason (which is frustrating). When I saw the update to this thread, I was half excited thinking maybe the cardinals did something, haha 😆
 
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#54
Right now goldy has DeJong hitting behind him??? He won’t see a fastball out of the dirt. That’s one bad line up. Can’t believe this team can sell 3.2 mil. Tickets. There has to be another move, anybody see the projected starting lineup for. Opening day?
View attachment 5393
It has 2 guys that won't be starting (Fowler & Thomas). Well, Fowler might start for a month, then they'll call up Carlson once the service time deadline hits. I'd be surprised if Fowler got close to 400 at bats this year. Lane Thomas might not even be on the team out of Spring Training, O'Neill will get starts over him to start the year.

Anyway, you replace Fowler with O'Neill or Carlson, and that's legitimately one of the best defensive lineups in baseball. Good pitching and elite defense won them 90 games last year, and there's a lot of upside in that lineup relative to last year too.
 
#55
Right now goldy has DeJong hitting behind him??? He won’t see a fastball out of the dirt. That’s one bad line up. Can’t believe this team can sell 3.2 mil. Tickets. There has to be another move, anybody see the projected starting lineup for. Opening day?
View attachment 5393
I would rather have Molina batting 4th and I hate having an older catcher running the bases but he at least understands situational hitting.
 
#56
It has 2 guys that won't be starting (Fowler & Thomas). Well, Fowler might start for a month, then they'll call up Carlson once the service time deadline hits. I'd be surprised if Fowler got close to 400 at bats this year. Lane Thomas might not even be on the team out of Spring Training, O'Neill will get starts over him to start the year.

Anyway, you replace Fowler with O'Neill or Carlson, and that's legitimately one of the best defensive lineups in baseball. Good pitching and elite defense won them 90 games last year, and there's a lot of upside in that lineup relative to last year too.
Those are some rose colored glasses my friend , i hope your right, but with none who can hit 280 and drive in 80 runs behind Goldie, were screwed.
 
#57
by the way, that was the Post Dispatch's projected lineup. they know way more about what the front office is thinking than we do.
i don't like it,but it is what it is.
 
#58
Those are some rose colored glasses my friend , i hope your right, but with none who can hit 280 and drive in 80 runs behind Goldie, were screwed.
The 4th position in the Cardinal lineup batted .257 and had 115 RBIs. Ozuna was the primary 4th place hitter (548 PAs batting 4th out of 702 total) and hit .244 and had 89 RBIs out of that spot.

Ignoring the fact that batting average doesn't really matter and RBIs are more a factor of who is on base ahead of you more than anything (so the 4th place hitter is always going to have a lot of RBIs, seeing as the best 3 hitters on the team bat in front of them), they won 90 games last year without the kind of 4th place hitter you wanted. They won 90 games primarily because their pitching was awesome (with all those guys back) and their defense was awesome (which will be even better with hopefully less Fowler and full time Bader in CF).

Since none of this matters, Tyler O'Neil hit .280 with 8 RBIs in only 52 PAs batting 4th last year. Give him the whole 702 PAs batting 4th and there's your guy hitting .280 and 108 RBIs. So they already have someone capable of meeting your arbitrary stat line on the team.
 
#59
by the way, that was the Post Dispatch's projected lineup. they know way more about what the front office is thinking than we do.
i don't like it,but it is what it is.
If Lane Thomas gets more at bats than Tommy Edman or Tyler O'Neil this year (barring trade), then i'll eat a hat
 
#60
The 4th position in the Cardinal lineup batted .257 and had 115 RBIs. Ozuna was the primary 4th place hitter (548 PAs batting 4th out of 702 total) and hit .244 and had 89 RBIs out of that spot.

Ignoring the fact that batting average doesn't really matter and RBIs are more a factor of who is on base ahead of you more than anything (so the 4th place hitter is always going to have a lot of RBIs, seeing as the best 3 hitters on the team bat in front of them), they won 90 games last year without the kind of 4th place hitter you wanted. They won 90 games primarily because their pitching was awesome (with all those guys back) and their defense was awesome (which will be even better with hopefully less Fowler and full time Bader in CF).

Since none of this matters, Tyler O'Neil hit .280 with 8 RBIs in only 52 PAs batting 4th last year. Give him the whole 702 PAs batting 4th and there's your guy hitting .280 and 108 RBIs. So they already have someone capable of meeting your arbitrary stat line on the team.
I understand what you are saying but there is no way O'Neill will get 700 PA batting 4th. There are only 7-8 players each year that get more than 700 PA. I didn't look but I willing to say they are all lead-off hitters. The cleanup hitter is probably closer to 625 PA.
 
#61
I understand what you are saying but there is no way O'Neill will get 700 PA batting 4th. There are only 7-8 players each year that get more than 700 PA. I didn't look but I willing to say they are all lead-off hitters. The cleanup hitter is probably closer to 625 PA.
Cal Ripken routinely got 700 PAs a year...

But yes I know, that was just the total PAs for the 4th spot in the order for the Cardinals last year, I was just making a point. Saying the team needs X number of RBIs and an X average out of a certain lineup spot or else they are "screwed" is dumb.
 
#62
the Front Range
I heard on the radio this morning that the cardinals are heating up their pursuit of Ozuna. Doubt it happens but interesting that the the front office wants the public to think they are trying.
 
#64
I’m not sure how anyone plans on O’Neill staying healthy. History says he won’t. I look at his body and says he won’t. I have my theories.
The Cards spending more on advanced metrics seems hilarious since they ignore basic ones. Carp and Fowler in decline. Edman on the rise. We end up starting several 8 hole hitters. Not a great hitting lineup with Edman sitting.
 
#67
Regardless of any arbitrary stat line, The point is no one on the club is a clean up hitter. If no one is in the 4th hole to make the opposition pitch to Goldie, why would anyone throw him a strike? Why do you think there has been discussion of signing/trading for a left handed corner outfielder? Even the cardinal front office knows it’s a weak lineup. Ozuna gave us a modicum if protection. I’d take him back in a heartbeat. Our tight “bleep” ownership has let a lot of help pass by because of a budget while they’re drawing 3.2 mil. Every year. That is my point.
 
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#68
Regardless of any arbitrary stat line, The point is no one on the club is a clean up hitter. If no one is in the 4th hole to make the opposition pitch to Goldie, why would anyone throw him a strike? Why do you think there has been discussion of signing/trading for a left handed corner outfielder? Even the cardinal front office knows it’s a weak lineup. Ozuna gave us a modicum if protection. I’d take him back in a heartbeat. Our tight “bleep” ownership has let a lot of help pass by because of a budget while they’re drawing 3.2 mil. Every year. That is my point.

In the past few years I've seen a lot of people call the Cardinal front office cheap. It puzzles me why. I just went to Spotrac and looked at the total team payroll from 2019 back to 2011. (That's as far as their records go.) The total team payroll was 6, 8, 14, 11, 12, 11, 10, 9, 9. Their payroll is higher than average every year. Even when they were 10th - 14th highest that isn't a cheap organization.

As you probably already know the teams that are consistently in the top 5 are LA, NY, Chicago, Philly and Boston. They frequently go over the cap and have to pay a penalty.

StL definitely needs a more production in the lineup. I won't argue that. Unfortunately we won't see it as long as Carpenter and Fowler are on the team. Heck even Yadi is sucking up $20 mil and wanting to take another drink or two out of the deep end of the pool.
 
#69
In the past few years I've seen a lot of people call the Cardinal front office cheap. It puzzles me why. I just went to Spotrac and looked at the total team payroll from 2019 back to 2011. (That's as far as their records go.) The total team payroll was 6, 8, 14, 11, 12, 11, 10, 9, 9. Their payroll is higher than average every year. Even when they were 10th - 14th highest that isn't a cheap organization.

As you probably already know the teams that are consistently in the top 5 are LA, NY, Chicago, Philly and Boston. They frequently go over the cap and have to pay a penalty.

StL definitely needs a more production in the lineup. I won't argue that. Unfortunately we won't see it as long as Carpenter and Fowler are on the team. Heck even Yadi is sucking up $20 mil and wanting to take another drink or two out of the deep end of the pool.
They’re perceived as cheap because they’re at the top of ticket sales and attendance each year while raking in BPV cash. They do enough to maintain the status quo of 85-90 wins and a reasonable shot at a wildcard spot and maybe even a division title depending on the year but the cardinals teams of recent have had a much lower ceiling than most other playoff teams. The front office has refused/been unable to pull the trigger on a big move that would take us from a pretty good fringe playoff team to a team that has a legitimate shot to win another WS.
 
#70
Regardless of any arbitrary stat line, The point is no one on the club is a clean up hitter. If no one is in the 4th hole to make the opposition pitch to Goldie, why would anyone throw him a strike? Why do you think there has been discussion of signing/trading for a left handed corner outfielder? Even the cardinal front office knows it’s a weak lineup. Ozuna gave us a modicum if protection. I’d take him back in a heartbeat. Our tight “bleep” ownership has let a lot of help pass by because of a budget while they’re drawing 3.2 mil. Every year. That is my point.
Well for 1 thing Goldschmidt shouldn't even be hitting 3rd, he should be hitting 2nd as that's the most productive place to but your best hitter. He started hitting 2nd last year for this very reason, but hit like crap for the 1st two months of the season and Shildt moved things around.

Lineup protection doesn't exist, at least statistically. I'll admit it's probably a psychological thing for the players, to a certain degree, but the only position in the lineup that it's statistically shown gets pitched to differently depending on who is hitting behind them is the 8th position since the pitcher is usually hitting behind them.

And like WPR said, the payroll they run is usually right in line with their total revenue relative to other teams; they're never going to run payrolls right at the luxury tax line like the top 5 revenue teams (NYY, LAD, Boston, Cubs, Giants). Opening day (without a late Ozuna signing), they're going to be at about $170MM. Personally, I think they should be running closer to $190MM to keep up with revenues, which is about where they'll be with a Ozuna signing. But Ozuna was never that great of a hitter with the Cardinals and really doesn't change the team much; 107 wRC+ in 2018 and 110 wRC+ last year (7% and 10% better than league average). If they can get him for a 3 year deal around $50MM then sure, he's not worth much more than that though.
 
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#71
They’re perceived as cheap because they’re at the top of ticket sales and attendance each year while raking in BPV cash. They do enough to maintain the status quo of 85-90 wins and a reasonable shot at a wildcard spot and maybe even a division title depending on the year but the cardinals teams of recent have had a much lower ceiling than most other playoff teams. The front office has refused/been unable to pull the trigger on a big move that would take us from a pretty good fringe playoff team to a team that has a legitimate shot to win another WS.
Man, I'll take status quo of projecting to win 88 games every year (which sometimes means you'll win 100 like in 2015), making the playoffs 2/3rds of the time while never being out of it in September, and a world series ring every decade or so like this front office has produced since Mozeliak was put in charge before 2008.

Spending just to spend gets you where the Cubs are (and Boston to some extent); in the middle of what should be an extended competitive window, you actually get hamstrung with old guy contracts and are looking to shed payroll (and trade your best player) in order to be able to afford to extend your pre-free agent guys or fill out a pitching staff.
 
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#72
I think most believe Mo’s threshold is being competitive in the division. I think we want a roster than can compete for a WS.

Flaherty is becoming the ace we need. Otherwise the former All Stars need to bounce back or other hitters found. Mo says we need to give young guys a chance but if Ozuna would re sign our starting lineup on day 1 will be exactly the same as last opening day.
 
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#73
I think most believe Mo’s threshold is being competitive in the division. I think we want a roster than can compete for a WS.

Flaherty is becoming the ace we need. Otherwise the former All Stars need to bounce back or other hitters found. Mo says we need to give young guys a chance but if Ozuna would re sign our starting lineup on day 1 will be exactly the same as last opening day.
I know but this strategy backfires more often than it succeeds. The Yankees, Dodgers and BoSox try to buy championships but fail.
 
#74
Cubs fan here...

It's amazing to me in a division that looks absolutely wide open, no one besides the Reds have really made any moves to significantly improve themselves. Forty-ish days to Spring Training and the Cardinals and Cubs have basically done nothing but marginal moves. The Brewers have shifted a lot of pieces around, but mainly look to be treading water at best. The Reds should be significantly improved, but just enough to bring them in line with the top three in the division rather than vault them over the top.

Fangraphs depth chart WAR ratings have a grand total of 7.7 games separating the their top rated NL Central team (the Cubs) from their 4th rated (the Reds), which falls well-within the proverbial "margin of error."

Should make for a fun race for the division crown, even if whomever wins it is quite likely to get bounced in the Divisional series.
 
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#75
I know but this strategy backfires more often than it succeeds. The Yankees, Dodgers and BoSox try to buy championships but fail.
Boston won a WS in 2018. Dodgers have been in several. Spending big is not really my point though. Standing pat was my point. We need offensive upgrades.
We are built to be competitive and maintain sellouts through September. October is different. The teams you mentioned want to win in October.
 
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