FBI College Basketball Corruption Investigation

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#76      

ILL in IA

Iowa City
This is more end of days thinking, but I have this slight fear (all speculation and based on zero info, the best kind of speculation there is) that the NBA wants to take more control of the development of players, and makes the G-Leauge an actual destination for guys to enter the draft and develop in, while getting some money. It won't take all the great players away from College, but it could have an impact.
 
#77      
This is more end of days thinking, but I have this slight fear (all speculation and based on zero info, the best kind of speculation there is) that the NBA wants to take more control of the development of players, and makes the G-Leauge an actual destination for guys to enter the draft and develop in, while getting some money. It won't take all the great players away from College, but it could have an impact.

There is no market for the G-league so the NBA does not care who does the development for them.
 
#78      

sbillini

st petersburg, fl
I didn't say what it was about. The result of the rule did protect players regardless of its original purpose.

If a player (and, just as importantly, the people around the player) think it's worth the risk/reward to try to go pro even if they may or may not be ready, that should be left to them, imo. It shouldn't be dictated by the NBA (esp. when it's obvious the NBA has an obvious conflict of interest in dictating such a thing).

Eventually the market will work itself out. Either players/families will get a much better understanding of what "being ready" constitutes and make smarter decisions and/or NBA programs will become more stingy on how many chances they take on HS talent. Either way, it'll likely still be overall a better system than what we have now (esp. now that we have a better understanding of the unintended consequences of the current system anyway).
 
#79      

Illwinsagain

Cary, IL
If there were some type of program in place, where high school players had to "try out" for the scouts/gms of the world, if told to stay in the draft by enough (3-4 teams), they get, at minimum, a 3 year D-league contract. So, the NBA has some skin in the game. The kids, could still go to college (like baseball) if they don't like the offer. It would mess with colleges, since, they wouldn't find out until late Spring (NBA draft) if a player would be available to them. Just spitballin'
 
#80      

Deleted member 654622

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If a player (and, just as importantly, the people around the player) think it's worth the risk/reward to try to go pro even if they may or may not be ready, that should be left to them, imo. It shouldn't be dictated by the NBA (esp. when it's obvious the NBA has an obvious conflict of interest in dictating such a thing).

Eventually the market will work itself out. Either players/families will get a much better understanding of what "being ready" constitutes and make smarter decisions and/or NBA programs will become more stingy on how many chances they take on HS talent. Either way, it'll likely still be overall a better system than what we have now (esp. now that we have a better understanding of the unintended consequences of the current system anyway).
So children who we as society have dictated are not mature enough to make other legal decisions, like drink a beer, are mature enough to make that life altering decision? I don't think I could disagree with this post anymore. Especially the "people around the player". How many of those people are risking their future? None. They are putting themselves in a position to do nothing but gain. If the kid fails, they jump on the next up and comer. The market will work itself out? So how many kids who will ruin their life will that take? These kids are 17 years old. I remember how I knew everything when I was 17. And now I know how stupid I was.
The NBA has that right, much like the NFL.
 
#81      
There is no market for the G-league so the NBA does not care who does the development for them.
I can see NBA teams adding a G league offset to draft picks...such as contract value decreases to XYZ if player not called up for main team. No concern for development, only to protect themselves if pick a bust or needs more time until contribute. Maybe used as compromise? I guess players now can sign 2way contracts. I am not up to date so much.
 
#82      
I can see NBA teams adding a G league offset to draft picks...such as contract value decreases to XYZ if player not called up for main team. No concern for development, only to protect themselves if pick a bust or needs more time until contribute. Maybe used as compromise? I guess players now can sign 2way contracts. I am not up to date so much.

Yes, now they allow 2-way contracts. But in general, there is no market for the G-league, actually a very small one. Collage basketball has tradition and there is very little market space between NBA and college, that is why all previous attempts ABA, CBA, etc. eventually failed. The focus of G-league is limited and NBA teams understand that so they will not funnel a lot of money into the G-league teams. In reality, NBA cares little about development, the global market is expanding fast so they focus more on scouting globally. They care more about discovering than development. JMO.
 
#83      

sbillini

st petersburg, fl
So children who we as society have dictated are not mature enough to make other legal decisions, like drink a beer, are mature enough to make that life altering decision? I don't think I could disagree with this post anymore. Especially the "people around the player". How many of those people are risking their future? None. They are putting themselves in a position to do nothing but gain. If the kid fails, they jump on the next up and comer. The market will work itself out? So how many kids who will ruin their life will that take? These kids are 17 years old. I remember how I knew everything when I was 17. And now I know how stupid I was.
The NBA has that right, much like the NFL.

I think you're over-dramatizing this a bit, no?
  1. Kids make these types of decisions every day. I don't see it as that different from deciding if/when/where to go to college.
  2. By "people around the player" i primarily mean the parents. I don't think it's invalid to say that they theoretically don't have much to lose on the kid's decision, and in some cases don't have the kid's best intentions at heart, but you'd rather have the NBA deciding for them that have an blatant conflict of interest? Related to my first point, parents often (not always) have at least some sway as to a kid's college decision, not sure why this would be that different.
  3. This is not an irreversible decision. Kid can still go to college for a year and change his/her mind and declare just like today (and vice-a-versa via workouts, camps, etc. where they're getting feedback from scouts. Potentially more depending on how the rules change). They're just not forced to attend college.
It's not a perfect solution, but it's much better than what we have now. If a kid has the talent, can monetize it, and wishes to forgo a college education, then why not give him the power to do it vs. some arbitrary notion of "the NBA is doing it for its own interests, but don't worry, it'll be good for you too"? If a kid thinks he's good enough and isn't, then take another path.

PS - they're not old enough for a beer, but old enough (or pretty darn close), for pretty much everything else in this country when making this decision. But not old enough to take a risk that the NBA dictates they can't?
 
#84      
PS - they're not old enough for a beer, but old enough (or pretty darn close), for pretty much everything else in this country when making this decision. But not old enough to take a risk that the NBA dictates they can't?

Maybe the problem is that there is a lot beer drinking in the NBA :)

lebeer.0.gif
 
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#85      

Deleted member 654622

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I think you're over-dramatizing this a bit, no?
  1. Kids make these types of decisions every day. I don't see it as that different from deciding if/when/where to go to college.
  2. By "people around the player" i primarily mean the parents. I don't think it's invalid to say that they theoretically don't have much to lose on the kid's decision, and in some cases don't have the kid's best intentions at heart, but you'd rather have the NBA deciding for them that have an blatant conflict of interest? Related to my first point, parents often (not always) have at least some sway as to a kid's college decision, not sure why this would be that different.
  3. This is not an irreversible decision. Kid can still go to college for a year and change his/her mind and declare just like today (and vice-a-versa via workouts, camps, etc. where they're getting feedback from scouts. Potentially more depending on how the rules change). They're just not forced to attend college.
It's not a perfect solution, but it's much better than what we have now. If a kid has the talent, can monetize it, and wishes to forgo a college education, then why not give him the power to do it vs. some arbitrary notion of "the NBA is doing it for its own interests, but don't worry, it'll be good for you too"? If a kid thinks he's good enough and isn't, then take another path.

PS - they're not old enough for a beer, but old enough (or pretty darn close), for pretty much everything else in this country when making this decision. But not old enough to take a risk that the NBA dictates they can't?

1. If you think the decision of declaring for the NBA and losing all opportunity to attend college for free is the same as deciding what college to attend, there is no point in continuing this conversation.
2. I believe there are a lot of great parents out there. I also know their are a lot of sh*tty parents that would use their kids for their own interest in a heart beat. When the player enters the draft, the NBA decides for them based on whether they are drafted. They are deciding regardless.
3. When this rule was adopted, if the player declared for the draft, they were no longer eligible to play college sports. So at the time, it was irreversible.
I don't like that system.

I am all for the survival of the fittest world. If you don't succeed, tough sheet, be better. But I also don't like setting up a system that temps kids with fame and fortune over a college education.
 
#86      

sbillini

st petersburg, fl
1. If you think the decision....

If you really think that a vast majority of the young adults that are seriously in consideration for being drafted right out of high school (and, as i stated, that's something they'll know well before they declare for the draft) are seriously interested/motivated in spending 4 yrs in college to get a degree, then there's no point in having this conversation.

yes there will be some situations where the player is on the border and/or will take an ill-advised risk (which, as I said in my previous post, they'll have plenty of opportunities to get a sense of whether they are a serious candidate before they declare). But at least that's a choice he will be making and it'll be lot less frequent than you're making it out to be. I don't think it's any better to force a player to go to college for a year, risk injury, create perverse incentives in college, and potentially lose the opportunity to make a living from their talent just because the NBA can get a free year of evaluation and have people believe it's "Good for the player".

It's not like there's a history of littered stories of high schoolers declaring for the draft pre-2006 (though i'm sure it happened sometimes). Plus the system has improved since then.

The NBA has every right to do what it wants. But to pretend like it truly has the player's needs at heart (or even tangentially has the player's interests in sight) when there's so many counterfactuals around it makes it BS, imo.

Let's not even get into the wasted scholarships going to players that have no intention of completing their degrees. :illinois:
 
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#89      

jmilt7

Waukegan
Adidas paid the family of Deandre Ayton — the No. 1 pick in the most recent NBA draft by the Phoenix Suns — before or during his college career at Arizona, a former consultant for the shoe company testified in federal court in New York Wednesday.
Gassnola’s testimony raises the possibility Arizona could face NCAA sanctions as fallout of the ongoing Justice Department investigation of the college basketball black market.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.254337c353ba
 
#91      

jmilt7

Waukegan
Thomas “T.J.” Gassnola, a former consultant for Adidas America, testified Wednesday in federal court that he made concealed payments on behalf of the shoe company to the families of five elite basketball prospects, including current Kansas forward Silvio De Sousa, former KU forward Billy Preston and former Arizona big man Deandre Ayton, the No. 1 pick in this year’s NBA Draft. Gassnola, 46, said he worked with Adidas to make payments to those three along with Dennis Smith Jr. and Brian Bowen Jr. Smith Jr. is now with the Dallas Mavericks after playing at N.C. State

https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article219820675.html
 
#92      

Deleted member 654622

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If you really think that a vast majority of the young adults that are seriously in consideration for being drafted right out of high school (and, as i stated, that's something they'll know well before they declare for the draft) are seriously interested/motivated in spending 4 yrs in college to get a degree, then there's no point in having this conversation.

yes there will be some situations where the player is on the border and/or will take an ill-advised risk (which, as I said in my previous post, they'll have plenty of opportunities to get a sense of whether they are a serious candidate before they declare). But at least that's a choice he will be making and it'll be lot less frequent than you're making it out to be. I don't think it's any better to force a player to go to college for a year, risk injury, create perverse incentives in college, and potentially lose the opportunity to make a living from their talent just because the NBA can get a free year of evaluation and have people believe it's "Good for the player".

It's not like there's a history of littered stories of high schoolers declaring for the draft pre-2006 (though i'm sure it happened sometimes). Plus the system has improved since then.

The NBA has every right to do what it wants. But to pretend like it truly has the player's needs at heart (or even tangentially has the player's interests in sight) when there's so many counterfactuals around it makes it BS, imo.

Let's not even get into the wasted scholarships going to players that have no intention of completing their degrees. :illinois:
I don't believe they are seriously considering 4 years of college. But I do believe one year of college is better than 0 years of college. If you want to start talking about the quality of that year of college, well that is on the university that allows that behavior, not the system.
Not one time did I say the NBA has the players interest at heart at all. I don't think it does, nor do I think it should. The NBA is a for profit business, players are assets.
 
#93      

Deleted member 654622

D
Guest
Nobody will disagree with that but why should the rule even exist? If you do not want to go to college and you are good enough to make it to the NBA in the eyes of the teams, why shouldn't you get the opportunity? Furthermore, the rule actually does not state that you need one year of college, that is not the requirement (i.e., the value of even 1 year of education). You have to be one year removed form graduation, so it is just that these players go to college because they do not want to stay a year away from basketball and want the visibility. Most of the international players coming form Europe do not have one year of college education, for them staying home and playing pro basketball is more of an option as it does not require relocation to a foreign country.
Why should the rule exist? That is a good question. Why was it originally put in place? I do not know the answer to those questions. I can speculate the players union pushed this in to protect those veterans from losing a roster spot. The NBA possibly did it to protect their product on the court. To many young men who have the physical tools but not the basketball savvy can make the game look more "one on one" and less attractive to their audience. That is just me spit balling.
With the way the draft is setup now, where players can get actual legit feedback and not lose their eligibility, could help mitigate the risk of players declaring that shouldn't.
I totally get the one year in Europe, some players do it so they can get paid for that year. It is a lot easier for them to just stay in the country and pick a college however. I mean, they are still getting paid apparently, so why not.
Again, I have not talked about the original premise of the rule, just the results. I think more kids going to college, even if it is just one year, is a better than the alternative.
 
#94      

illiniCA

DC Area
If I were the NBA I would try to establish the g league in Europe
 
#96      

ILL in IA

Iowa City
No market there either. Euroleague basketball is higher level than G-league (and pays a lot better) but despite that, Euroleague is still struggling with payouts to its members compared to the soccer Champions League. Most of the top Euroleague teams are associated with soccer clubs having the same name and fan base (CSKA, Fener, Real, Barcelona, Panathinaikos, Olympiacos, etc.) drawing big crowds from that association and existing fan bases. G-league would not be able to draw from such existing fan bases with huge local following.
When you say no market, do you mean no fanbase/interest to support it?
 
#97      

Deleted member 533939

D
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If only there existed a level of basketball, between that of HS and NBA, which gave players a chance learn and grow....
....for no money, while the people who ran this "level" made billions of dollars.
 
#98      

illiniCA

DC Area
....for no money, while the people who ran this "level" made billions of dollars.

Are we saying if all these NCAA players were in the G league there would be no market but because they are tied to a school there is a market...
 
#99      
Are we saying if all these NCAA players were in the G league there would be no market but because they are tied to a school there is a market...
I mean kinda, right? We as fans are loyal to our school, not a recruit. Not sure in what percentile I fall, but college basketball is one of my favorite 3ish sports (highly dependent on time of season and quality of Illini basketball). I wont even watch Bulls basketball (occasionally would when they were good, but that beside the point). The NBA is of little interest to me, as would the Windy City Bulls or whatever G league team I would choose to root for. Dont ask me why, someone much smarter can probably tell you the psychology behind rooting for a team from your school.

I suspect a not so small group of college basketball watchers are in the same group as me. Add in a group that casually watches/attends games just because they went to a school... I dont see how a G league full of college prospects makes a ton more money than it already does, though there would be an obvious boost, the amount would still dwarf college athletics.
 
#100      

ILL in IA

Iowa City
I mean kinda, right? We as fans are loyal to our school, not a recruit. Not sure in what percentile I fall, but college basketball is one of my favorite 3ish sports (highly dependent on time of season and quality of Illini basketball). I wont even watch Bulls basketball (occasionally would when they were good, but that beside the point). The NBA is of little interest to me, as would the Windy City Bulls or whatever G league team I would choose to root for. Dont ask me why, someone much smarter can probably tell you the psychology behind rooting for a team from your school.

I suspect a not so small group of college basketball watchers are in the same group as me. Add in a group that casually watches/attends games just because they went to a school... I dont see how a G league full of college prospects makes a ton more money than it already does, though there would be an obvious boost, the amount would still dwarf college athletics.
The models and goals of College sports compared to minor league sports are just different, it's hard to compare them in the way you are. Also the ways fans view college/minor leauge teams is vastly different. I do think done the right way the G-Leauge could make a lot more than they currently are.

I agree with Obelix, the market is not currently set up to support the G league and taking a chunk away from College Ball. I would argue that if changes were made to how the G-Leauge is constructed, and the way the NBA currently drafts could change a lot of that. I think it is all a matter of how much the NBA wants to put into/invest into the G League.
 
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