Illini Basketball 2018-2019

[Second and Chalmers]

Out of curiosity, I researched where B1G pre-season media poll ranked the Illini that year

Those preseason media polls are a valuable tool, but I think some folks here are a little to eager to present those as a clean, isolated, objective ranking of strictly the talent composition of each roster, when there's a lot more that goes into it, especially the perception of the coach.

Give Josh Pastner and Tony Bennett the same roster, they would not occupy the same spot in the preseason ACC poll, for example.

 

[skyIdub]

No that was me, and I stand by that. But I am also very willing to take the long view. It's not like I'd fire him tomorrow, that would be stupid and counterproductive.

But I don't understand the urge not to call it like you see it from day 1. Is there some greater reward you get for ignoring all fault if things end up working out? The putrid arguments some posters are making will be no less illogical and poorly argued if we're back where we belong in three years.

Let's just win some games, shall we? Honestly, I think people are in for an emotional shock when we remember what that feels like.

So, let me see if I understand this correctly.

Other posters calling it like they see it from day one are making "putrid arguments", but you saying BU is in over his head from day one is a logical, sound argument, even if we are a sound program again in three years?

 

[Obelix]

Those preseason media polls are a valuable tool, but I think some folks here are a little to eager to present those as a clean, isolated, objective ranking of strictly the talent composition of each roster, when there's a lot more that goes into it, especially the perception of the coach.

Give Josh Pastner and Tony Bennett the same roster, they would not occupy the same spot in the preseason ACC poll, for example.

Yes, but at that point was at the beginning of his third year, where he had clearly overachieved in his first year, and had taken his second team with only 3 returning scholarship players (+ Rice) to the NCAA bubble and NIT, something that now even posters on this board view as an achievement. So there was no perception of Groce failing with extra talented teams.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

So, let me see if I understand this correctly.

Other posters calling it like they see it from day one are making "putrid arguments"

Incorrect. What other people are doing, said with admirable candor earlier, is this:

I'll give Underwood three seasons to turn this mess around. I think that's fair. Until then, I'll temper most criticism I have of his choices.

Tempering criticism =/= calling it how you see it.

I don't see the point of doing that. This is just a message board, it's not like we need to present some happy public face.

But even beyond that, there's "hey man, I'm not gonna worry about it for three years, let's just see where it leads us", which is truly fine and dandy, and then there's making embarrassing logic pretzels to refute any and all criticism of the Savior Figure.

Arguing that all three of Underwood's handpicked recruits left after a single season is irrelevant and just shows his preference for players he has spent more time scouting is just a humiliatingly bad argument when we're out here grabbing whatever falls off the trees ultra-late in the process AGAIN.

A generalized sense of optimism is great. Appreciation of our current recruiting class is great. A sense that super-small-ball might work better than we think, if argued in a basketball-literate way, would be super great (I would be eager to read that actually). It's when people feel the need to go beyond that and twist the obvious failures that have occurred into whatever word salad is necessary to validate the predetermined narrative that COACH IS PERFECT that people are really making themselves look silly.

you saying BU is in over his head from day one is a logical, sound argument, even if we are a sound program again in three years?

My view of the situation leaves ample room for that possibility. That is my great hope!

The views I am criticizing leave absolutely not one sliver of room for the possibility that we could ever look back and say Underwood is not currently executing a flawless master plan. Which is the EXACT way everyone posted about Groce for 3-4 years until there was a mass awakening that the master plan wasn't working at all.

 

[Francis Park Thug]

Both of you are very good posters. My favorites. Thanks for your contributions to this forum. I learn a lot.

 

[dbeverly26]

If y'all were my kids, I'd kick you out of the house and tell you to ride your bikes around the block for a while.

 

[AEX]

If y'all were my kids, I'd kick you out of the house and tell you to ride your bikes around the block for a while.

dbeverly26, don't you know people have jobs to ignore? Too busy looking busy to go galavanting about.

 

[Peoria Illini]

If y'all were my kids, I'd kick you out of the house and tell you to ride your bikes around the block for a while.

Yep, AEX is right dbev!!!

If I wasn't stuck at work trying to look busy, I'd be out riding a bike. God knows I could use the exercise, LOL!!!

Now I've got to go home soon and try to get the yard mow before the rain comes... Could be doing that instead of worrying about the sky falling on Illini basketball.

 

[Obelix]

Why was he hired then? To keep us squarely on the bubble a la Weber? Because if thats true, I believe we should've offered him an extension rather than fire him.

Groce was hired to elevate the program as all coaches who have been hired at UI. He actually started very strong, overachieved his first year, had a pretty good second year (with just 3 returning players + Rice), got a raise, many people in the media including Illini writers (e.g., Klee) through he was destined for bigger things. There are a lot of revisionist theorists who now pretend to had been disappointed after his 1st or 2nd year but that was not the mood back then.

While Groce started well right off the bat, recruiting was actually the area that first clouds started to appear. While he could get on recruitments at critical positions like PG (e.g., DJax, Brunson, Evans, Snider) or C (e.g., Cliff, ET) he seemed not able to close (or in the case of Snider keep). Unfortunately, those positional gaps and inabilities persisted until it was too late for him to recover.

 

[FiveStar]

A sense that super-small-ball might work better than we think, if argued in a basketball-literate way, would be super great (I would be eager to read that actually).

I tried to lay that out a bit on a plane ride last weekend (though mildly hungover from vacation). If there’s an offense you can do it with it’s this one. I’ve for sure done the high school version of it (5’6-5’11 lineups in high school varsity basketball). But it’s 100% dependent on being able to hit open 3s when they’re created. After the way we shot last year, I can’t just assume that.

If we can hit those 3s, we gotta be able to trade more 3s for 2s given up defensively. Cause unless we can press like a mofo, defense is hard to guard a good big.

 

[nichi]

But I don't understand the urge not to call it like you see it from day 1.

I don't see that as an urge. I see that as restraining the urge to rush to judgment.

 

[Deleted member 631370]

I agree there is plenty of time to turn the ship back in the right direction. Nowhere have I said anything differently.

But on this board, you must deny that any issues exist at all, at least as they pertain to the head coach. Your post speaks to that narrative construction very well, that one year in is too soon to scratch at the Savior Figure narrative regardless of the facts.

I am going to be Brad Underwood's most staunch defender on this board two years from now, just by saying the exact same stuff I'm saying now. Loyaltyville is in denial about who the actual windsock is here.

Goodness gracious, man. Do you realize how hypocritical you sound? I assume not, but that simply displays the lack of self-awareness involved.


You engage in precisely the same intellectual shortcuttery as those who default to optimism. Your default is a "sky is falling" pessimism that apparently only you are wise enough to recognize. As if the gods have come down from Mt. Olympus to provide you some sacred scroll with the truth that only you can read.



The irony is that you have a long history of clinging to losers well into an obviously-failed tenure. "Team Beckman", anyone? This guy was a loser the moment he took the podium in his introductory press conference and then went to Happy Valley to poach recruits, and yet those who were skeptical were the idiots. Remember those days? I sure do.


The great thing about this board is the wide range of opinions -- some well-informed, most not (mine included). But hey, we're all Illini, right? Nothing makes this sort of environment more intolerable than arroganct self-righteousness cloaked as "realism".

 

[EJ33]

Incorrect. What other people are doing, said with admirable candor earlier, is this:



Tempering criticism =/= calling it how you see it.

I don't see the point of doing that. This is just a message board, it's not like we need to present some happy public face.

But even beyond that, there's "hey man, I'm not gonna worry about it for three years, let's just see where it leads us", which is truly fine and dandy, and then there's making embarrassing logic pretzels to refute any and all criticism of the Savior Figure.

Arguing that all three of Underwood's handpicked recruits left after a single season is irrelevant and just shows his preference for players he has spent more time scouting is just a humiliatingly bad argument when we're out here grabbing whatever falls off the trees ultra-late in the process AGAIN.

A generalized sense of optimism is great. Appreciation of our current recruiting class is great. A sense that super-small-ball might work better than we think, if argued in a basketball-literate way, would be super great (I would be eager to read that actually). It's when people feel the need to go beyond that and twist the obvious failures that have occurred into whatever word salad is necessary to validate the predetermined narrative that COACH IS PERFECT that people are really making themselves look silly.



My view of the situation leaves ample room for that possibility. That is my great hope!

The views I am criticizing leave absolutely not one sliver of room for the possibility that we could ever look back and say Underwood is not currently executing a flawless master plan. Which is the EXACT way everyone posted about Groce for 3-4 years until there was a mass awakening that the master plan wasn't working at all.

You think the true believers base their views on logic and analysis? There's your problem.

I'm optimistic that someday Illinois basketball will rise again and I'll keep following it all the way there. I'm less optimistic about Underwood than I was but I still think he can succeed. My measures of success for Underwood this year are:

1) Land a Top 100 front court player
2) Play better which is probably mostly about fouling less and putting a speed bump in the layup line. Underwood can't make the ball go in the basket, but these things are about COACHING
3) Limit transfers and DO NOT LOSE AYO.

You'll know Underwood is going to fail when he can't get a front court player this year and Ayo transfers.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

Your default is a "sky is falling" pessimism

you have a long history of clinging to losers well into an obviously-failed tenure. "Team Beckman", anyone?

See the problem here?

I'm a pessimistic guy generally, but in terms of looking long-term at the trajectory of my sports teams, I tend toward a guarded optimism. If there's a coherent plan, I am generally content to follow it, and I can at least acknowledge it even where I despise and have no trust in the leaders carrying out (see: the Bulls).

I was over the freaking moon when we landed Underwood, not least of which because I didn't think we had a chance at a guy like that (there's the pessimism), but I just thought his resume and background reflected an ideal fit for the Illinois job. I still believe that. There's a great coach in there, which was not the case for Groce or god help us Beckman.

I've just been totally shocked by how badly it's gone, and how far afield we are from what seemed like the plan.

I have no objection whatsoever to saying "it's too early to judge". It is very early days, and we will have a lot more useful information a year from now. But I think people are extending from that to making really really poor arguments for why there actually aren't any problems here, or even further than that to where bad things happening are actually construed as good, and I don't see what the point of a message board is if not advance arguments about the correct way to interpret what's happening with the program.

 

[FeelYourPaign]

See the problem here?

I'm a pessimistic guy generally, but in terms of looking long-term at the trajectory of my sports teams, I tend toward a guarded optimism. If there's a coherent plan, I am generally content to follow it, and I can at least acknowledge it even where I despise and have no trust in the leaders carrying out (see: the Bulls).

I was over the freaking moon when we landed Underwood, not least of which because I didn't think we had a chance at a guy like that (there's the pessimism), but I just thought his resume and background reflected an ideal fit for the Illinois job. I still believe that. There's a great coach in there, which was not the case for Groce or god help us Beckman.

I've just been totally shocked by how badly it's gone, and how far afield we are from what seemed like the plan.

I have no objection whatsoever to saying "it's too early to judge". It is very early days, and we will have a lot more useful information a year from now. But I think people are extending from that to making really really poor arguments for why there actually aren't any problems here, or even further than that to where bad things happening are actually construed as good, and I don't see what the point of a message board is if not advance arguments about the correct way to interpret what's happening with the program.

I can offer you some insight on your final paragraph. Most guys on here are highly energetic fans, but many of them (read me and I believe others) come here to enjoy their fandom with fellow enthusiasts. We're not here to work at it. That's too strongly worded, but that's the message I mean at the most basic level. I come here to enjoy time with people who care about what what I care about. I want them to be upbeat about it. It's the off season. If they have to put on lightly tinted glasses to do that with me, I'm ok.

Bottom line; we're not all here for exactly the same thing

 

[Second and Chalmers]

Most guys on here are highly energetic fans, but many of them (read me and I believe others) come here to enjoy their fandom with fellow enthusiasts. We're not here to work at it. That's too strongly worded, but that's the message I mean at the most basic level. I come here to enjoy time with people who care about what what I care about. I want them to be upbeat about it.

Well if you're not here to be existential and miserable, allow me to show you to Zdor

 

[nichi]

I have no objection whatsoever to saying "it's too early to judge". It is very early days, and we will have a lot more useful information a year from now. But I think people are extending from that to making really really poor arguments for why there actually aren't any problems here, or even further than that to where bad things happening are actually construed as good, and I don't see what the point of a message board is if not advance arguments about the correct way to interpret what's happening with the program.

I am not happy that last year's team had the 5th worst overall record since I became an Illini fan almost 60 years ago. Losing seasons are relatively rare for Illini basketball, and until recently, have generally involved outside factors. While there are some ongoing internal problems, my perception is the AD is addressing those to the extent possible. I also like Underwood's offense and defense in the context of the shorter shot clock. In addition, I approve of the more national approach to recruiting; which is consistent with the recent apparent decline in homegrown talent.

 

[Rap73]

Coach it's record at Duke first 3 yrs. 38 and 47 . Give coach Underwood a chance to turn this program around. I believe he can do it.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

Why don't you just simply state your thoughts and preface your posts with, Here is my opinion on subject A, B, C, or D???

Done. Shameless repost!

In the interests of being productive, here is what I would do now if I were in Underwood's shoes:

1. See if Ebo and Matic are willing to entertain coming back. That may be unrealistic, but it's worth a shot. He should want both guys to return and be willing to address their concerns from their first year here.

2. If you can't get one or both of those guys back, hit whatever is left of the grad transfer market and find at least one big man who can soak up 10 minutes without getting annihilated on defense or fouling out. Two would be better still. It's totally unrealistic to expect Kane and Giorgi to give us much of anything as raw, fringe-y true freshmen who aren't even native English speakers.

3. Call Erik Pastrana, Underwood's assistant at SFA now at Florida Atlantic, and Stephen Gentry, also an SFA assistant who was our DOBO before leaving for the same position at Gonzaga, to see if they would be willing to join as an assistant. Failing them see if there is anyone else who is familiar with our offensive style in particular with experience who would be willing to take the job at this late juncture. If so, let go of Jamall Walker tomorrow. We need Chin to keep Ayo, Antigua has the big man coaching challenge of his life ahead of him, Walker's clearly the chair you open if you have to open one, and we really really do to get someone with a background in UnderwoodBall.

4. Reach out to both Kipper and AJ and gauge their comfort and willingness to totally redefine themselves as a full-time starting 4. Pick one of them (AJ is a guy who will do anything for the team so he'd put his heart and soul into it, but if Kipper is eager for it he probably has the more natural skillset for the role), and assign them all of the nutrition, weight training, and one-on-one coaching they can handle to make that transition. Rather than juggle nine million guys playing out of position, sacrifice one to the cause full-time.

5. Retaining as much terminology, base concepts, base skills and whatnot as possible, ease up on the pressure D for the time being. Do pre-emptively what OSU did on the fly during his year there. We just don't have the personnel for it physically or experience-wise, and it would be demoralizing for all these young kids to just get posterized over and over again.

6. Get your team together and level with them. As the coach, it's your job to make a balanced roster, and you've failed. You've put them in a bad position, and put them in a spot where they're going to face a lot of havoc and make a lot of mistakes. You coach hard, you're not going to change the way you coach, but you also understand that you have not put the pieces together in a way that can make everything fit the way it does in your head. Create some sort of a pathway outside of regular practice and meeting times where each player can discuss the way they're being coached and their concerns. Nurture those lines of communication. Make clear that if they're willing to work for you and willing to stick with you that they have not just a scholarship but a playing role on the team for the duration of that scholarship.

Then you have to go coach and recruit your behind off of course. But that's just my short-term idea to stop the bleeding.

To add to that based on info we've gotten since, I'd take Zdor too. Gotta have big bodies just for practice purposes if nothing else, a point others have raised.

And for assistant coaches, I forgot about Danny Henderson who was on Underwood's OSU staff and is now at Tulsa. Pastrana, Gentry, and Henderson are the three guys out there who have prior experience as Underwood's assistant. Or I guess you could try to hire Lamont Evans...

 

[mattcoldagelli]

I can offer you some insight on your final paragraph. Most guys on here are highly energetic fans, but many of them (read me and I believe others) come here to enjoy their fandom with fellow enthusiasts. We're not here to work at it. That's too strongly worded, but that's the message I mean at the most basic level. I come here to enjoy time with people who care about what what I care about. I want them to be upbeat about it. It's the off season. If they have to put on lightly tinted glasses to do that with me, I'm ok.

Bottom line; we're not all here for exactly the same thing

Man, if there is way to be a serious Illinois fan right now without it absolutely feeling like work, you’ve gotta let me in on that secret.

 

[StateFarmCenter]

Samba Kane won't be with Illini this summer
https://247sports.com/college/illin...-wont-be-with-the-team-this-summer-119057959/

Samba Kane is leaving campus due to transcript issues -- sources told IlliniInquirer.com.

Kane arrived on campus in late May, but he was unable to enroll in summer courses. He plans to return to Illinois in August to begin taking classes for the fall semester.

 

[SKane]

The hits just keep on coming.

 

[tpbradley]

It's not hate. It's a response to a multitude of posts that seem to be all over the place. The constant 'Illini hive mind', 'Illini Savior', and posts such as 'I'm positive about the future with Underwood as HC' but at the same time saying 'he's in over his head' comments that get to fellow posters. Those things irk people and make one wonder what the point is that's trying to be made.

I'm glad S&C posts, and Obelix (love that name!), and even TcT's sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek posts are all welcome. I read every single post on this and the football forum, have for years, and will continue to do so. I don't want ANYBODY to stop posting. I long for the Orange Fever, Kramer (he still pops in here and there), DaytonIllini (and several others whose names escape me at the moment) days.... So many have been banned or just moved on due to the bans. That being said, if someone posts something, its fair game to be disagreed with, agreed with, given props, or criticized. That's what makes these boards fun.

Yes, things haven't gone 'according to plan'. But do they ever really? We have a coach that is just barely over 1 year OTJ. I personally don't think the criticism is warranted. There is not a single D1 coach out there that can control the minds, thoughts, and decisions made by their players. Shite happens. Some are too quick to blame the HC. I get it, who else is there to blame anyways??? But I just don't think we are at that point where doing so is constructive. I have two kids 30+yo that I talk to every single day about most everything in their lives, and I have no idea what decision they are going to make on any given thing at any given time. I don't know why we expect Brad Underwood to be able to do that with 10-13 kids on the roster, as well as all the recruits we are talking to. It's beyond ridiculous to have that expectation.

Agree with this 100%. I love the input from everyone. It just gets tiresome sometimes having to filter it out when some folks get accusatory or generalize the fans into fixed groups (hey, we're all varying levels of crazy here). Not sure what the point of pointing fingers is when we're just trying to have an entertaining discussion. I don't even mind the occasional side trips off topic, although I know it drives some posters nuts haha.

 

[StateFarmCenter]

Nevermind, just saw he has to leave until August due to transcript issues.

That part seems up in the air but hopefully

 

[spillini]

Welp