Illinois 85, Michigan 69 POSTGAME
What a fun game. Kipper is a perfect example of throwing grades out the window and letting a guy play. I kept a close eye on him off the ball and you could tell he looked lost on many occasions. But he scraps and fights his way to 13 and 8.
I remember Groce talking about his grading system when he first got hired. He grades out every practice and game, but it's not really based on results. It's based on making good basketball plays. Like grading good/bad shots instead of made/missed. And defensively it's graded more on being in the right spot rather than how many your guy scored on you. This system should work more times than not but sometimes you have to throw it out the window.
I remember Groce talking about his grading system when he first got hired. He grades out every practice and game, but it's not really based on results. It's based on making good basketball plays. Like grading good/bad shots instead of made/missed. And defensively it's graded more on being in the right spot rather than how many your guy scored on you. This system should work more times than not but sometimes you have to throw it out the window.
EfremWinters84
- S. Carolina
Just finished watching on TiVo. Not planning to read through all of the comments on here, so at the risk of being redundant, here are my quick observations:
- terrific game! We actually had 5 "basketball athletes" on the floor essentially the entire game. And finally --- a level of talent I haven't seen on display since our last NCAA tournament team with Brandon and DJ Richardson.
-- TJL is a true point guard. Love it! He is athletic and he takes it into the lane with purpose. And what a superb passer! I'm willing to give up the hope that he'll knock down 3's, but the value he adds to team chemistry and fluidity is outstanding.
-- As did most of you, I identified the Thorne/Tate shortcomings two months ago. I see a role for both, but it might be in the vicinity of 3-5 minute per game going forward.
-- I totally missed on Kipper. I had seen no prior video on the kid, but was not impressed in the 1 minute I saw him get in his first game. Totally shocked by his performance! That type of role can add significant value for this team. He looks to be a great swing man, and hustler.
-- The team was really hustling on defense tonight. I can't tell how effective we'll be in the next few games, but I loved the effort. They were truly working at it.
- terrific game! We actually had 5 "basketball athletes" on the floor essentially the entire game. And finally --- a level of talent I haven't seen on display since our last NCAA tournament team with Brandon and DJ Richardson.
-- TJL is a true point guard. Love it! He is athletic and he takes it into the lane with purpose. And what a superb passer! I'm willing to give up the hope that he'll knock down 3's, but the value he adds to team chemistry and fluidity is outstanding.
-- As did most of you, I identified the Thorne/Tate shortcomings two months ago. I see a role for both, but it might be in the vicinity of 3-5 minute per game going forward.
-- I totally missed on Kipper. I had seen no prior video on the kid, but was not impressed in the 1 minute I saw him get in his first game. Totally shocked by his performance! That type of role can add significant value for this team. He looks to be a great swing man, and hustler.
-- The team was really hustling on defense tonight. I can't tell how effective we'll be in the next few games, but I loved the effort. They were truly working at it.
The return game in Michigan is now winnable. Hadn't considered that as a possibility before. Very frustrated that Groce resisted the obvious for so long. Many of us knew Lucas and Nichols would provide energy. MD game should be exciting but we still haven't shown we can stop a great guard.
I watched the game on DVR after catching the first half on the radio in the car. So I knew we had a lead but I didn't know we maintained it....a welcome surprise.
I think most people (but not all) aren't trying to run Tate out of town on the next train, but TJL needs to get 20+ minutes and Tate needs to get less than 10 and probably closer to 5 or less. He's not a bad human being, people are just saying we are an incredibly better basketball team with TJL running the point. And don't tell me "well, he gets some assists." Yeah, he does, someone, in a D1 basketball game HAS to make some points and someone has to pass those people the ball. The scores on blowouts are 80-50...not 100-0.
I'm gonna offend someone here I'm sure, but I'm not a fan of the advanced metrics that Groce is such a fan of (or that are used in all sports) and here's why. I think it keeps people from being accountable in their decisions. Why did you play Player A over Player B? Well our fancy practice stat software tells us his irrelevant practice stat is 13% points higher, so he plays. I find that gutless...you never take responsibility because you are just relying on some numbers to tell you what to do.
There are a lot of intelligent basketball fans out there that can tell if someone can play or not simply by using their eyes and understanding how the game is played. Some even post on this board. They don't need some numbers to validate their opinion. They can see someone understands spacing and mismatches and timing and placement of passes and all the different options that brings to the table for opportunities to score and put the opponent in high stress defensive possessions all the time.
Someone said that TA initiates the half court better than TJL. I don't agree. Don't let your desire for Tracy to have the ending to his career that he should get based on all he's been through to cloud what is actually going on. For Illinois to be the best team it can be, he probably sees his minutes reduced somewhat. If he can't regain his shot so he's a legit option at the 2, his minutes should be cut even more. As fans we may not like that...but I'd nearly guarantee, if that's what's best for the Illini to be successful he'll make that sacrifice. Would he rather play 20 minutes on an NCAA team or 28 on an NIT team.....I think that decision would be easy for him to make. That's not saying we won't need him to play more in some game, and he may win a game for us later on......but, I'd think for most people, they can see that the difference when TJL plays and when he doesn't is night and day.
I'm gonna go yell at some clouds now. Good win...I hope Groce sees the light. I actually want him to succeed this year and moving forward because I think he's a great person and representative of the O & B...but if he's too stubborn to see what a seeming majority of Illini fans see, then he deserves to pay for that with his job.
I think most people (but not all) aren't trying to run Tate out of town on the next train, but TJL needs to get 20+ minutes and Tate needs to get less than 10 and probably closer to 5 or less. He's not a bad human being, people are just saying we are an incredibly better basketball team with TJL running the point. And don't tell me "well, he gets some assists." Yeah, he does, someone, in a D1 basketball game HAS to make some points and someone has to pass those people the ball. The scores on blowouts are 80-50...not 100-0.
I'm gonna offend someone here I'm sure, but I'm not a fan of the advanced metrics that Groce is such a fan of (or that are used in all sports) and here's why. I think it keeps people from being accountable in their decisions. Why did you play Player A over Player B? Well our fancy practice stat software tells us his irrelevant practice stat is 13% points higher, so he plays. I find that gutless...you never take responsibility because you are just relying on some numbers to tell you what to do.
There are a lot of intelligent basketball fans out there that can tell if someone can play or not simply by using their eyes and understanding how the game is played. Some even post on this board. They don't need some numbers to validate their opinion. They can see someone understands spacing and mismatches and timing and placement of passes and all the different options that brings to the table for opportunities to score and put the opponent in high stress defensive possessions all the time.
Someone said that TA initiates the half court better than TJL. I don't agree. Don't let your desire for Tracy to have the ending to his career that he should get based on all he's been through to cloud what is actually going on. For Illinois to be the best team it can be, he probably sees his minutes reduced somewhat. If he can't regain his shot so he's a legit option at the 2, his minutes should be cut even more. As fans we may not like that...but I'd nearly guarantee, if that's what's best for the Illini to be successful he'll make that sacrifice. Would he rather play 20 minutes on an NCAA team or 28 on an NIT team.....I think that decision would be easy for him to make. That's not saying we won't need him to play more in some game, and he may win a game for us later on......but, I'd think for most people, they can see that the difference when TJL plays and when he doesn't is night and day.
I'm gonna go yell at some clouds now. Good win...I hope Groce sees the light. I actually want him to succeed this year and moving forward because I think he's a great person and representative of the O & B...but if he's too stubborn to see what a seeming majority of Illini fans see, then he deserves to pay for that with his job.
blackdog
- Champaign
TA is still the better defender by a huge margin and he also has the toughness and leadership qualities that the freshman TJL hasn't yet developed. Sure TJL might be able to make some plays that TA can't and is much more of a true PG but he is not ready to take over the reigns full time. He is looking like he is going to be a REALLY good player when all is said and done though.
better is relative
Tracy is the more experienced defender and being a leader and tough do not make you a good pg good quality to have but you need more than that to effectively run a D1 club .
I honestly like and respect both Abrams and Tate but Ive also watched the last 6 years with them at point and cant argue for a reason that either one of them would be getting anything besides mentor minutes at PG over TJL.
TJL was recruited for a reason and this is not about him turning into a all american but we know for certain what both Tate and Abrams are not and its one of the major reason that this program is stuck in the its been in .
The time has come for both Abrams and Tates role as the point guards on this team be reduced. Im not saying they should never play or they shouldnt get minutes but simply shouldnt get it at PG at the expense of TJL.
Get them minutes behind him or next to him but not in front of him .
Tracy has looked a step or two slow during the slump.
Illiniwek06
- N of I-80
Yup, all of this. I can't for the life of me figure out why it took this long for TJL to get minutes, given the play in front of him.
chief78
- Florida
I see the same thing ^^^
Deleted member 4960
D
Guest
For those of you calling for Tracy Abrams to play less, than who are you going to play? You already don't want Tate out there either. Sorry but Abrams and Tate will continue to play significant minutes this year because you have no other guards to use. Playing TJL 30+ game is not advisable and JCL has nowhere near good enough handles to run the point.
Deleted member 29907
D
Guest
Agree with the Tracy part, not the Tate part. I don't see 'significant' minutes for Tate going forward. That said, Groce has already amazed me that TJL didn't get more minutes much, much sooner.
We played our most complete game yesterday, their were a few bad offensive plays that we need to eliminate since they were unforced errors. When we have a large lead and need to bleed the clock a little bit, Black tends to take a bad shot. He had two shots that were momentum changers (his 3 pointer and his shot around the 10 minute mark). Hill needs to stop the dribbling show, we were most effective when we shared the ball. Lucas, no more behind the back passes around half court.
Praise to JCL who seems to cut down on poor looks or bad shots. Also penetrating and dishing more.
Kipper was very impressive, outrebounded a much taller/longer player. He needs to be in the SG and WF position as well. Abrams with another PG (JCL or Tate) on defensive is a terrible match-up. Need to see DJW in as well.
Praise to JCL who seems to cut down on poor looks or bad shots. Also penetrating and dishing more.
Kipper was very impressive, outrebounded a much taller/longer player. He needs to be in the SG and WF position as well. Abrams with another PG (JCL or Tate) on defensive is a terrible match-up. Need to see DJW in as well.
Deleted member 29907
D
Guest
JCL hit a few very nice threes at the right time. Michigan was down 11 i think and hit a big contested three and then from Mav. Nice to be able to pour it on with a lead rather than have to dig out of a hole.
Finke was huge yesterday. Late in the game the announcers said he was 4-4 with 10 points. His 3 before halftime was huge and it was great execution by our guys vs the 1-3-1 to end the half. We were clearly ready to go to that play in that situation. If Finke doesn't hit that shot, I wonder if it gives belien more confidence to use the zone in the second half, since we've struggled with it under Groce.
Did anyone else notice that Leron came out both smart and aggressive? He seemed extra motivated--probably knew Kipper was gonna take some of his minutes--and started well and played well overall. It's interesting how Kipper is not as long but seems to finish better in traffic. They are both tough and good rebounders. Could be a good 1-2 punch going forward.
Solid win. Nice to see the team come together and play well on both ends. Keep it going.
I agree. Who Groce decides to play is not Jaylon's fault. He's limited in scoring ability but he always should have been a complimentary piece. Again, it's not Jaylon's fault that Groce missed on so many point guards. I'm sure all he cares about is winning and doing whatever he can to help the team win, whether it is being pressed into playing 30 minutes because of injuries last year, only getting spot time moving forward, or just being a positive peer on the bench.
Joel Goodson
- respect my decision™
Well put.
Best game we've played this season, by far. Very encouraged by Kipper and TJL. Have to beat the turtles!
I really enjoyed watching last night's game, finally, and for the most part was happy with the lineups, finally. If I have a complaint I think it would be Abrams at the shooting guard. We all know he is not that. Therefore, I would play TJL at the point and have Abrams back him up. I would play JCL at the 2 with a committee of Hill and AJ backing him up with Abrams with very short stints if needed. Hill would play the 3 obviously. Unfortunately,this team is not good defensively and will not be good no matter who is out there from a defensive standpoint. Just the way it is. So you play your best offensive guys and hope to get to 78 points. If you can, you will be in most games.
Observations from last night:
We obviously shot lights out making it far easier to look so good. That is not going to happen every night.
Having both Black and Kipper to get rebounds is really difference making. It takes a little rebounding pressure off Mav and Finke. Kipper brings another level of energy.
TJL seems to really bring a spark to the offense. He makes the entire offense faster with his presence. He seems to make his fair share of mistakes but probably needs time/experience to get past that.
Mav is really good offensively and actually played decent team defense last night. Still not a great defender and lacks ability to rebound but can be productive as long as Black and/or Kipper are on the floor.
Hill really struggled against a taller/athletic defender. He still made his contributions but with other stepping up we showed we don't have to have him carry us. However, can we stop with the Hill play PG talk, because he just doesn't have good enough handles.
Finke was Finke. Decent energy and nice shooter that is good off the bench, especially when making shots but falls a bit short on D and rebounding.
Abrams remains the heart of the team in my opinion.
JCL is a really good shooter.
Jordan looked a little more comfortable while he was out there last night. I hope the nerves are calming down.
Thorne is limited but can certainly be used for spot minutes and especially with the right matchups.
Tate is also limited but can also be used for spot minutes and especially when our other PG's are struggling.
It was great to see a strong showing last night but I think it was just one night. Don't expect us to come out playing like that every night. Hopefully, Groce finally figured out some things about his roster that many on here have been calling for for weeks. That seems to be the pattern every year.
We obviously shot lights out making it far easier to look so good. That is not going to happen every night.
Having both Black and Kipper to get rebounds is really difference making. It takes a little rebounding pressure off Mav and Finke. Kipper brings another level of energy.
TJL seems to really bring a spark to the offense. He makes the entire offense faster with his presence. He seems to make his fair share of mistakes but probably needs time/experience to get past that.
Mav is really good offensively and actually played decent team defense last night. Still not a great defender and lacks ability to rebound but can be productive as long as Black and/or Kipper are on the floor.
Hill really struggled against a taller/athletic defender. He still made his contributions but with other stepping up we showed we don't have to have him carry us. However, can we stop with the Hill play PG talk, because he just doesn't have good enough handles.
Finke was Finke. Decent energy and nice shooter that is good off the bench, especially when making shots but falls a bit short on D and rebounding.
Abrams remains the heart of the team in my opinion.
JCL is a really good shooter.
Jordan looked a little more comfortable while he was out there last night. I hope the nerves are calming down.
Thorne is limited but can certainly be used for spot minutes and especially with the right matchups.
Tate is also limited but can also be used for spot minutes and especially when our other PG's are struggling.
It was great to see a strong showing last night but I think it was just one night. Don't expect us to come out playing like that every night. Hopefully, Groce finally figured out some things about his roster that many on here have been calling for for weeks. That seems to be the pattern every year.
FeelYourPaign
- So Cal
This seems like a pretty good point. How can he find 'em, but not play 'em? Glad that was addressed for last night and hopefully going forward.
