Illinois Football Recruiting Thread

[Deleted member 29907]

Your points are valid, and if I were a parent of a recruit, I would take those points into serious consideration.

Without knowing Washington's family dynamics and what's most important to them, it's hard to say why his father prioritizes what he does. But for many recruits -- especially those who are poor -- they're looking first and foremost for a program that gives them the best shot to play pro ball and get out of poverty. That's Calipari's whole philosophy, and it's why he's so attractive to recruits.

No doubt that Lovie is a tremendous mentor, but many other schools on his list probably have strong mentors as well (hopefully Urban Meyer's problems will undercut his reputation of being a family-first guy). And on top of that, some of the other schools can make a much more credible claim when it comes to helping get Washington to the next level professionally.

You are thinking too rationally. The other thing to consider is playing time, being over-recruited, etc. There's a reason you see more than a few NFL players from non-top 10 schools. Football players, in general change alot between 1st and 4th years and time on the field makes a big difference in any sport. Lots of bench warmers on OSU who chose the school because of its rep. Of course, no one thinks they will be on the bench - but Hurts, is a prime example of what can happen.

I actually don't see why he'd drop OSU based on the current situation until resolved - and based on his Twitter posts - the Dad doesn't seem like a "morals" type of guy. Perhaps he's concerned about playing time.

 

[Deleted member 631370]

You are thinking too rationally. The other thing to consider is playing time, being over-recruited, etc. There's a reason you see more than a few NFL players from non-top 10 schools. Football players, in general change alot between 1st and 4th years and time on the field makes a big difference in any sport. Lots of bench warmers on OSU who chose the school because of its rep. Of course, no one thinks they will be on the bench - but Hurts, is a prime example of what can happen.

I actually don't see why he'd drop OSU based on the current situation until resolved - and based on his Twitter posts - the Dad doesn't seem like a "morals" type of guy. Perhaps he's concerned about playing time.

Yeah, the downside of going to a big time program is that you're competing with other elite talent. But then, most of these kids are pretty confident in their abilities, and coaches at those big time programs sell them on how great they are, how they'll have a chance to come in and contribute, etc. And of course, they're sold on what almost any competitive person really wants: winning.

So, it's a balance between being "the man" at a place like Illinois, or paying your dues and eventually cracking the rotation at a place like Ohio State. Not all kids want to be "the man" -- particularly if they don't have a reliable QB to get them the ball, a reliable OL to pass protect for said QB, reliable RBs to keep defenses honest, and other reliable WRs to ensure that teams aren't double covering a kid like Washington.

 

[Deleted member 29907]

Yeah, the downside of going to a big time program is that you're competing with other elite talent. But then, most of these kids are pretty confident in their abilities, and coaches at those big time programs sell them on how great they are, how they'll have a chance to come in and contribute, etc. And of course, they're sold on what almost any competitive person really wants: winning.

So, it's a balance between being "the man" at a place like Illinois, or paying your dues and eventually cracking the rotation at a place like Ohio State. Not all kids want to be "the man" -- particularly if they don't have a reliable QB to get them the ball, a reliable OL to pass protect for said QB, reliable RBs to keep defenses honest, and other reliable WRs to ensure that teams aren't double covering a kid like Washington.

OSU has 6 4-star receivers Junior and down and one 5 star commit for 19. That could also have something to do with it.

 

[Deleted member 631370]

OSU has 6 4-star receivers Junior and down and one 5 star commit for 19. That could also have something to do with it.

True, though that rarely seems to deter kids from committing. As somebody who watches Penn State closely, they got a commit from a high 4* RB from VA (Devin Ford) even though they already have 5* Miles Sanders (junior), 5* Ricky Slade (freshman), and 4* CJ Holmes (the ND transfer) -- all of whom have at least 2 more seasons left. Ford could probably start at RB as a freshman at VA Tech, but opted instead to go somewhere and sit for at least a year. Why? Because Franklin is selling kids on being the next Saquon Barkley and competing for a national title.

Maybe I'm too simplistic when it comes to recruiting, but at the end of the day, the single greatest factor that attracts kids to your program (in my view) is winning and prestige. Even more so than immediate playing time.

 

[SampsonRelpenk]

Maybe I'm too simplistic when it comes to recruiting, but at the end of the day, the single greatest factor that attracts kids to your program (in my view) is winning and prestige. Even more so than immediate playing time.

Nope. It's that simple. It makes the Arrelious Benns and Marquez Beasons that do come our way even more astounding.

 

[ILL in IA]

I have no doubt that Lovie is a great guy and mentor. I believe that to be true. As a Bears fan, I have heard so many former players praise Lovie.

That said, I feel Lovie needs to have that happen at the college level. He needs to mentor someone into the NFL draft, be selfish, and be seen when the player gets the phone call on draft day. Be the mentor and great guy who can have a good football season that ends with a bowl game and kids in the NFL.

I know it doesn't happen overnight and what he took over. I just hope that WHEN it does happen Lovie can use it. Good people can be great coaches and lead good programs.

 

[Deleted member 29907]

True, though that rarely seems to deter kids from committing. As somebody who watches Penn State closely, they got a commit from a high 4* RB from VA (Devin Ford) even though they already have 5* Miles Sanders (junior), 5* Ricky Slade (freshman), and 4* CJ Holmes (the ND transfer) -- all of whom have at least 2 more seasons left. Ford could probably start at RB as a freshman at VA Tech, but opted instead to go somewhere and sit for at least a year. Why? Because Franklin is selling kids on being the next Saquon Barkley and competing for a national title.

Maybe I'm too simplistic when it comes to recruiting, but at the end of the day, the single greatest factor that attracts kids to your program (in my view) is winning and prestige. Even more so than immediate playing time.

Yeah, I am always amazed at the kids sitting the bench on Duke Bball. Great, you went to Duke, but you didn't play. How does that help your game?

 

[bobbob]

Yeah, I am always amazed at the kids sitting the bench on Duke Bball. Great, you went to Duke, but you didn't play. How does that help your game?

Well, Harry Giles played ~11 minutes his Freshman year at Duke and got drafted in the first round as a one and done... so I think it helped him.

Iron sharpens iron, practicing against higher competition is better than playing against inferior competition. Every athlete spends significantly more time at practice than playing in games. That is where the benefit for kids trying to make the next level is. The top programs know how to prepare kids for the next level, even if they don't get used on the college level. Get a reputation for that and kids will come.

 

[blackdog]

Well, Harry Giles played ~11 minutes his Freshman year at Duke and got drafted in the first round as a one and done... so I think it helped him.

Iron sharpens iron, practicing against higher competition is better than playing against inferior competition. Every athlete spends significantly more time at practice than playing in games. That is where the benefit for kids trying to make the next level is. The top programs know how to prepare kids for the next level, even if they don't get used on the college level. Get a reputation for that and kids will come.

On ESPN 2 yesterday they had a special about Alabama training camp that I had on in the background. One thing that stood out was one of the offensive lineman saying they were going up against the best defensive lineman in the country every day for 2 hours so they really have to be on their game at all times. That's really going to help a lot in their development even if they aren't getting game time.

 

[Deleted member 29907]

Well, Harry Giles played ~11 minutes his Freshman year at Duke and got drafted in the first round as a one and done... so I think it helped him.

Iron sharpens iron, practicing against higher competition is better than playing against inferior competition. Every athlete spends significantly more time at practice than playing in games. That is where the benefit for kids trying to make the next level is. The top programs know how to prepare kids for the next level, even if they don't get used on the college level. Get a reputation for that and kids will come.

Thanks for the one example and I am sure there are a few others - but do you care to point out the countless counter-examples? And if I recall there was a knee issue involved. No doubt competition in practice is good - but there is no substitution for game pressure experience and that's where most of the exposure comes from.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

Your points are valid, and if I were a parent of a recruit, I would take those points into serious consideration.

Without knowing Washington's family dynamics and what's most important to them, it's hard to say why his father prioritizes what he does. But for many recruits -- especially those who are poor -- they're looking first and foremost for a program that gives them the best shot to play pro ball and get out of poverty. That's Calipari's whole philosophy, and it's why he's so attractive to recruits.

No doubt that Lovie is a tremendous mentor, but many other schools on his list probably have strong mentors as well (hopefully Urban Meyer's problems will undercut his reputation of being a family-first guy). And on top of that, some of the other schools can make a much more credible claim when it comes to helping get Washington to the next level professionally.

The thing I get from those tweets though is that the number of games his son is going to win at the college level and the prominence of his team at the college level is something that really matters to him, and that's probably not in his son's long-term best interests.

Having said that, the world would be a better place if everyone got to grow up with a father who is as involved and caring about them as Washington's Dad is, so he's to be commended regardless.

 

[bobbob]

Thanks for the one example and I am sure there are a few others - but do you care to point out the countless counter-examples? And if I recall there was a knee issue involved. No doubt competition in practice is good - but there is no substitution for game pressure experience and that's where most of the exposure comes from.

As opposed to the countless counter-examples of athletes who went with lower tier programs so they "could be seen" and then were never heard from again?

 

[Deleted member 654622]

I have no doubt that Lovie is a great guy and mentor. I believe that to be true. As a Bears fan, I have heard so many former players praise Lovie.

That said, I feel Lovie needs to have that happen at the college level. He needs to mentor someone into the NFL draft, be selfish, and be seen when the player gets the phone call on draft day. Be the mentor and great guy who can have a good football season that ends with a bowl game and kids in the NFL.

I know it doesn't happen overnight and what he took over. I just hope that WHEN it does happen Lovie can use it. Good people can be great coaches and lead good programs.

I really do not think that will happen honestly. Lovie seems like the kind of guy that probably sees that time as the player's spotlight. To try and take some of it would be selfish and disrespectful. Now I am not saying that is what it is, I am saying I wouldn't be shocked if that was Lovie's stance. What needs to happen is when these kids start getting drafted, other people are going to have to say it for him. That means former players, coaches and media. And say it on national television. That is the only way it is going to happen in my opinion

 

[Deleted member 29907]

As opposed to the countless counter-examples of athletes who went with lower tier programs so they "could be seen" and then were never heard from again?

Never said there weren't examples of those too. If you'd rather sit the bench on a top 5 team, so be it. I'd rather play on a top 50 team.

 

[ChiefIllini]

Never said there weren't examples of those too. If you'd rather sit the bench on a top 5 team, so be it. I'd rather play on a top 50 team.

You're under the assumption we are going to be a top 50 team (I agree we should be). We have a not so short ways to go.

Rhetoric is a powerful tool and if Cal's previous recruiting successes indicate anything, it's like he's excellent at spinning a situation. Employee of the Month at the Ford dealership kind of stuff.

 

[thunderwear]

Don’t forget, the national conversation around Lovie is that he was a mistake to hire and that he will be gone in a year. That is a very popular narrative with national media types and they don’t get it from thin air.

I believe, along with most of this board, that lovie is even better than he gets credit for. And I am higher on lovies likelihood to succeed than most people on this board. But it doesn’t mean that the majority of the country buys that narrative. Most people don’t follow recruiting or coaching at any level, including their own university level. I think the only thing to do is to win more games this season.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

the national conversation around Lovie is that he was a mistake to hire

It's funny, because this is so true, it's becoming the national narrative even above and beyond the idea that he's failing here, even though that is the complete opposite of what the national media were saying when he got hired. They weren't as over the moon as we were about the hire of course, but they were uniformly positive and intrigued.

We'll stuff it all down their throats over the next couple years.

 

[ILL in IA]

Don’t forget, the national conversation around Lovie is that he was a mistake to hire and that he will be gone in a year. That is a very popular narrative with national media types and they don’t get it from thin air.

This is the part that has me most intrigued. Are the booyahs feed this info from someone, or just to lazy to do the work. Because most coaches after 3 years and the results we have in the W collum get fired. But a little effort in reporting reveals just how bad we were and why Lovie will be given the proper time to turn it around. Or are other coaches floating this to the media because they can see what a turnaround with Lovie could be and want to slow it down with negative press?

 

[Second and Chalmers]

Because most coaches after 3 years and the results we have in the W collum get fired.

Not really. Most get 4. David Beaty is 3-33 and is coming back for year 4. Mike MacIntyre was 10-27 and got year 4. You could come up with other examples. 3-or-less and out is pretty rare, and usually involves off-field embarrassment of some sort.

I hate to be a conspiracy homer, but the forcefulness and unanimity of this combined with its easily confirmable falsehood smacks of some sort of agenda by some common source of these writers. Who is cozy with the press who would have an interest in falsely portraying Lovie's situation as insecure? And would be enough of a weasel to actually do so?

Total, wild speculation on my part, but two suspects immediately spring to mind, I think you can probably guess who they are.

 

[thunderwear]

This is the part that has me most intrigued. Are the booyahs feed this info from someone, or just to lazy to do the work. Because most coaches after 3 years and the results we have in the W collum get fired. But a little effort in reporting reveals just how bad we were and why Lovie will be given the proper time to turn it around. Or are other coaches floating this to the media because they can see what a turnaround with Lovie could be and want to slow it down with negative press?

This is a great post. Coaches being fired after 3 years are almost unheard of in college football. I don't think Whitman is letting Lovie go next year no matter what. There could be several reasons for this type of narrative. The biggest arguments I get for Lovie being at the end of his rope are from big money donors. I never get the argument from people that follow college football closely. I prefer not to speculate on why they don't like Lovie, but several would be happy to see him go without achieving success (while also setting up the next coach for success). I imagine they could be feeding the narrative. It could also be a narrative that is starting now, because it would be a big headline next year if Lovie has not been successful in his first three years and I bet would generate a considerable number of clickthroughs. A superbowl coach was fired from college football. I wouldn't be surprised if it came from NFL head offices (Cleveland comes to mind) or maybe even college coaches. There are lots of places to speculate. But I just think it is interesting that I see Lovie as someone that has done considerable work on improving Illinois football and being a few seasons away from having a great team, where others see a bad coach and a bad decision for a college to hire such a coach.

 

[IlliniinIowa]

Well he's got some good offers already. Seems like a kid who's Iowa's to lose, however, as long as Ferentz is still around.

There's going to be a Ferentz as head coach even after Kirk retires.

 

[ChiefIllini]

There's going to be a Ferentz as head coach even after Kirk retires.

Off topic, I know, but is it the general thought that the kid Ferentz is going to take over after Kirk?

 

[MTMinded]

This is a great post. Coaches being fired after 3 years are almost unheard of in college football. I don't think Whitman is letting Lovie go next year no matter what. There could be several reasons for this type of narrative. The biggest arguments I get for Lovie being at the end of his rope are from big money donors. I never get the argument from people that follow college football closely. I prefer not to speculate on why they don't like Lovie, but several would be happy to see him go without achieving success (while also setting up the next coach for success). I imagine they could be feeding the narrative. It could also be a narrative that is starting now, because it would be a big headline next year if Lovie has not been successful in his first three years and I bet would generate a considerable number of clickthroughs. A superbowl coach was fired from college football. I wouldn't be surprised if it came from NFL head offices (Cleveland comes to mind) or maybe even college coaches. There are lots of places to speculate. But I just think it is interesting that I see Lovie as someone that has done considerable work on improving Illinois football and being a few seasons away from having a great team, where others see a bad coach and a bad decision for a college to hire such a coach.

I really hope that what you say regarding these big donors is not true, because if you speculate it leads to only one conclusion and its bothersome to say the least. If they are big donors and educated about the program then they should be willing to give Lovie the time.

 

[IlliniinIowa]

Off topic, I know, but is it the general thought that the kid Ferentz is going to take over after Kirk?

They're grooming him for the job. Pretty well known in Iowa City, though most don't seem to like the idea. They want a bigger name.

 

[ritster]

This is the part that has me most intrigued. Are the booyahs feed this info from someone, or just to lazy to do the work. Because most coaches after 3 years and the results we have in the W collum get fired. But a little effort in reporting reveals just how bad we were and why Lovie will be given the proper time to turn it around. Or are other coaches floating this to the media because they can see what a turnaround with Lovie could be and want to slow it down with negative press?

I believe it is this