Illinois Football Recruiting Thread

[MadSeason]

I don’t agree with gritty, but his points are a relevant voice around Illinois football and I want to make his point here (which I don’t agree with, but hear often).

He is saying that Lovie deserves this year. If he doesn’t qualify for a bowl, it’s because he didn’t meet his mark and it’s time to move on... and All Gritty has seen is a dumpster fire on the field, underperforming talent and a flailing coach, so he doesn’t have any belief that things will turn around. He would argue that Illinois fans are pretending the glass is half full and it is really only about 10% full. By most fans are scared to get a different glass.

Everyone and I mean everyone who follows Illinois football has seen the dumpster fire on the field for the last 3 years. There is some disagreement about what percentage Lovie shares, Beckman shares, Thomas share, Cubit shares etc. No one disagrees that they have been horrendous. At this point however it is moot. 2019 is all that matters.

Most of us on this board will acknowledge that it is time for Lovie to produce. He has had time to recruit, nurture this roster, and build it in a way he thinks will be successful. Some (myself included) think Illinois is in a really good spot to make a move in the Big 10, while others are dubious about Illinois' chances. I can't blame them. Illinois has burned us all before.

I think we will undoubtedly be taking the field next season with our best roster since 2011. That's is at least something for the rebuild

 

[Deleted member 336259]

I think Lovie and staff are moving the needle in a positive direction. I look at the classes prior to him coming in and see that Illinois had some decent recruits that stepped on the field that could play in the B1G; however, they should have never been put in a starting role, maybe ever, but due to the depth of the rest of the roster they were forced into that position.

Lovie did come in to a dumpster fire and whether we like it or not players left because there was/is a different vision on where the program needs to be. Most of those players that would be "depth" on most average teams. There are exceptions to the rule but obviously, looking back, Lovie wanted his own kids to form that depth.

When he decided he was going to play the under-classmen, I loved it because it told me the change had begun. It didn't help in wins and losses but it did help in the mentality of the team and the momentum on the recruiting trail. I don't care what anyone says, transfers or those that had to sit out and will play this year aside, if you are looking at players/rankings, there are at least 5 players out of the 12 in this upcoming year who could compete for immediate playing time and most likely will see the field.......ALOT even if they are not starting. A couple years ago the majority of the new comers would have been the "depth".

5-7 or 6-6 is a successful season for me this next football season though I see beter. The depth is being built with quality talent and as long as recruiting keeps up with the way it has progressed, we will be at least relevant for a while which, unfortunately, is more that any of us could ask for given our current position.

 

[Deleted member 633632]

Naw. Rod prefers what he already has.

Yeah, there is a little short guy who played wr during the UA all-america game who the staff thinks can win championships while he's here!

 

[Twangers]

Naw. Rod prefers what he already has.

I, personally, hope so. We have talent in that QB room and a number of holes in other areas, With only a few open spots remaining, I would prefer we focus our efforts elsewhere.

 

[stlillinifan]

We can all agree that you have to compete in upper D-1 conference like the Big Ten, you can't expect coaching to do miracles. So kudos to Lovie and staff for getting some of those higher caliber recruits and transfers to Champaign. But I will say that I'm still extremely hesitant to get to optimistic. After a few years with Coach Smith and his staff to have happen what happened with that Iowa game is just inexcusable. So yeah, let's see... better players, some coaching changes, let's hope

 

[ugottabjoshinme]

I'm not currently in the "bowl or bust" camp for Lovie. I can see a scenario where the on field product is better, they lose some really close games but are more competitive (no 63-0's) and there are only 5 total wins. That is not an automatic fire Lovie scenario for me. Especially if there is still an uptick in recruiting and we don't know the waiver status of some of the transfers.

I just want to see improvement on the field (especially on defense). If the defense improves like the offense did last year it should result in more wins

 

[Title]

I understand that his performance wasn’t great at the Elite 11, but most the guys that are invited to that could compete for the starting spot day 1 on campus. If it pans out we go with a different option at QB it is hard to imagine Isaiah not being the top slot reciever he is one of the top route runners and most elusive athletes in the class. I know Jeff Thomas is small and quick so he would be fit for the slot too, but I would put him on the outside and let him fly, Isaiah on short routes to get him space.

I wouldn't be concerned about his performance compared to the other participants, I would be more concerned about his performance as an individual. Where he compared to everyone else is irrelevant. Was he hitting his targets and reading the defenses during 7on7?

 

[ChiefGritty]

continuing the revolving door here

Lou Tepper got 5 full seasons here. Ron Turner got 8. Ron Zook got 7. Tim Beckman would have had at least a fourth had he not gotten caught.

Bruce Weber got six double-digit loss seasons in a row, and then John Groce got five more.

Impatient firings happen in college sports. None has ever happened in the history of the University of Illinois. There is no revolving door here.

Utterly false narrative #1

You'd have probably canned Alvarez then in year three

If I wouldn't have canned Lovie after a year 3 in which we were one of the worst teams in the entire country, it seems fairly unreasonable to say I'd fire Barry Alvarez after a year 3 in which he, among other things, beat #12 Ohio State.

Utterly false narrative #2

You said Lovie didn't inherit a dumpster fire? You saying that doesn't make it true.

You saying the opposite doesn't make it true either.

I don't know what "dumpster fire" means empirically. We did not have a robust talent level, that much is true. But we have badly, wildly under-performed the talent level we did have in each of Lovie's three seasons and have looked like a lost, badly coached team that doesn't really want to be there over and over and over again.

And I'm saying this as a Lovie ADVOCATE. No coach in the era for which we have good data has ever done what Lovie's done and ended up succeeding, period, not even close, and I still think he has a chance, maybe because I'm an idiot, I don't know. The sample size isn't that huge, new things happen all the time, who knows.

I think an intelligent fan ought to be able to support a coaching staff without relying on lazy, rote, politics-esque spin of all the same old narratives in their favor. It's literally always the same, he got handed a dumpster fire, you'll never get anywhere without stability, look at Barry Alvarez, blah, blah, blah. And the flipside goes too, when it's time for a coach to be fired, that's no excuse to make up a bunch of nonsense against them either. It's so incredibly boring.

I dunno, people who value empiricism tend to drift away from being fans of a particular team and become more generalist in their sports consumption. Sabermetric baseball people, basketblogger types, etc. I've always found it more rewarding to combine the two, and I have just never seen the tension there.

 

[lexwaldez]

I don’t agree with gritty, but his points are a relevant voice around Illinois football and I want to make his point here (which I don’t agree with, but hear often).

He is saying that Lovie deserves this year. If he doesn’t qualify for a bowl, it’s because he didn’t meet his mark and it’s time to move on... and All Gritty has seen is a dumpster fire on the field, underperforming talent and a flailing coach, so he doesn’t have any belief that things will turn around. He would argue that Illinois fans are pretending the glass is half full and it is really only about 10% full. By most fans are scared to get a different glass.

That's fair, but I think one can prove he's incorrect. We've seen failure, and we've seen WHY there's been failure, it's not like there's a mystery why we've failed. He inherited a team with one and two star talent. I'm glad to have those young men on the team, they're part of the Illini family, and they stepped up to do their best but Lovie knew long term success wasn't to be had with those guys. He brought his guys in and we started a lot of true freshmen. We sold playing time to attract better talent, giving them a reason to buy into a team that's had no recent success. Over the last few years we've seen young players, outmatched in size and strength, little to no depth, little to no experience at certain positions and this resulted in blown coverages, dropped balls, routes run incorrectly, incorrect reads, etc. I don't believe that means the coaching is bad. I would argue (and one could argue against, that given our history combined WITH the timing of Lovie's hire the first year absolutely does not count. Didn't happen. We're coming up to the third year and we should see massive improvement at least on the offensive side. I have to wait and see on defense. Depth is STILL an issue, but at least we can finally say, after years of hard work, we can field an entire team with a few folks that can step in although experience is still an issue. I need to see continued improvement but Lovie is going to get this year and next regardless because JW is going to demonstrate patience and reasonableness to the next coaching candidate. We are in it for the long haul. Let's not worry about this coming fall and just heap some praise on the staff for WONDERFUL job they've done with recruiting this year. I would argue the glass is half full, and all this negative nonsense only works against us when we should be showing the staff and hard working kids some support and optimism. Anything else at this point is self-defeating and THAT is my main point. If you are negative enough, you make negative things happen and I've had QUITE enough of that crap to last a lifetime thank you very much.

TLDR - my point is that gritty's attitude is self-defeating and puts us in a perpetual death spiral

 

[NScale]

Or do you read this and think, "eh, its not really different from what Beckman did. Man Lovie has been terrible and we are terrible and we are always going to be terrible so I feel terrible now I am going to make everyone else feel terrible."?

Well, it's really this way until proven otherwise. To quote Dennis Green, they are what their record says they are.
Some years ago I was at a game where people were saying how we'll be good in 2019. Well, why are we buying tickets in 2017 and 2018?
To view the Marching Illini of course, but after all these years I know all their songs and cadences by heart.

 

[ChiefGritty]

He inherited a team with one and two star talent.

Again, verifiably untrue.

Per the 247 Team Talent Composite, Lovie's first team had two four stars (not sure who of Wes Lunt, Keshawn Vaughn and Gabe Megginson isn't counted there, those were all four stars on Rivals) and FIFTY SEVEN three stars.

The phrase "MAC talent" gets tossed around. Illinois was 64th in the country. The highest MAC school was 77th. Using the raw scores we were closer in talent to Iowa than we were to the most talented MAC school.

You don't have to make stuff up! You can make a pro-Lovie case with real, empirical data, it's just more difficult. Mirroring the difficulty, if you'll indulge me, of winning at Illinois. You have to dig deeper, find the small advantages.

Lovie also, by the way, inherited a handful of two stars by the names of Cam Watkins, Jake Hansen, Doug Kramer and Reggie Corbin. Some of the best performers he's had including his own higher-rated recruits.

 

[Deleted member 746094]

We can all agree that you have to compete in upper D-1 conference like the Big Ten, you can't expect coaching to do miracles. So kudos to Lovie and staff for getting some of those higher caliber recruits and transfers to Champaign. But I will say that I'm still extremely hesitant to get to optimistic. After a few years with Coach Smith and his staff to have happen what happened with that Iowa game is just inexcusable. So yeah, let's see... better players, some coaching changes, let's hope

The Iowa game was embarrassing, inexcusable? The defense playing the way it was last year it wasn’t surprising. It was a perfect storm of our horrible defense combined with our offense not showing up either. That is how you get 63-0. Even great teams with track records of success take one on the chin sometimes. I know we took more than one last year. Just saying with where our program was at the end of the season last year it shouldn’t have been surprising. You have to look at the entire book. Not just a chapter here and a chapter there. Admittedly, the first several chapters for Lovie have been tough to read. The story is starting to get better though.

I am reluctant as well to get too excited about next year because I played low level D1 as a WR with a pretty talented core of skill players but for 4 years we failed to have a QB that could 1) grasp the offense 2) physically make the throws when we were open. I see this being my biggest concern next year. You can have elite athletes all over the field on offense and a great scheme. If MJ and or IW can’t run the scheme effectively and physically make the throws consistently all else is mute. I do think we will be much more enjoyable to watch though and MJ will ultimately play well by the back half of the year. 2020 we will push for the West title.

 

[Deleted member 645583]

Neither here nor there but: Writing Illini or some other site said Illinois hasn't had a tight end the likes of Ford in the last 30 years. I nominate Ken (Kent?) Dilger.
Pretty fair player.

I think both Ford and Thomas have legitimate reasons to play next season, but what do I know. It's time NCAA did something nice for the Illini (best team name by far when you add the Fighting).

 

[ChiefIllini]

Football recruiting is a lot more than just getting 5 stars, at least when you're at the level of Illinois. Sure, Wisconsin, Iowa, NW, etc. get more highly rated players, but the tier those teams are playing in is the one Illinois should strive to be in for the short term at least. You've got to get those diamond in the rough guys. Having Senior low 3/2 stars is valuable if you're good at coaching kids up. Sure 7/10 of them will never be all big ten players, might not contribute more than special teams minutes, but those few kids who do pan out probably didn't strain resources like it would recruiting 4 stars.

There's a balancing act. Even teams like Bama take 3 stars and Juco transfers. Being able to develop players and grab older guys in areas of need is way more important than than getting a few talented players.

That being said, I think Lovie is doing exactly what should be done. Hit the grad transfer juco levels for plug n play guys at areas of extreme need, get 2 or 3 really talented players every class (this class just happens to feature more quantity and quality of these players), fill the roster with promising players you hope work hard and develop, and eventually field a team that is some combination of that.

After last season, I questioned Lovie's vision of this program. Since the last snap of the season, he's done an A+ job. Not sure you could've asked for a better 2-3 month period. Of course, the on field product needs to show up, but I believe Lovie is doing this thing right. The best laid plans.... Hopefully this season we see a jump but I honestly think these past few months moved the needle on his career here more than the previous 2.5 years did.

 

[IlliniCC]

No clue

I wouldn't be concerned about his performance compared to the other participants, I would be more concerned about his performance as an individual. Where he compared to everyone else is irrelevant. Was he hitting his targets and reading the defenses during 7on7?

the documentary only showed about 6 or 7 players. All I know is that he never cracked the Top 12 during the 3 day period.

 

[Deleted member 654622]

Everyone and I mean everyone who follows Illinois football has seen the dumpster fire on the field for the last 3 years. There is some disagreement about what percentage Lovie shares, Beckman shares, Thomas share, Cubit shares etc. No one disagrees that they have been horrendous. At this point however it is moot. 2019 is all that matters.

That is the end all be all. Anything that happened in the past is a sunk cost. It doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is what is best for the program moving forward TODAY. Lovie has a few years college experience now, building major recruiting ties to some talented areas (Bishop Dunn, Trinity, East St. Louis, Phillips Academy), currently bringing in the best talent we have had in multiple years, and the dude knows football. Ya, I'm good with him being the coach. When we get more information, we can reassess the situation.

 

[ChiefGritty]

When we get more information, we can reassess the situation.

Hear, hear

 

[Deleted member 654622]

Well, it's really this way until proven otherwise. To quote Dennis Green, they are what their record says they are.
Some years ago I was at a game where people were saying how we'll be good in 2019. Well, why are we buying tickets in 2017 and 2018?
To view the Marching Illini of course, but after all these years I know all their songs and cadences by heart.

Dennis Green said "they are who we thought they were"
Bill Parcells said "you are what your record is"
Which is very fitting for this conversation since Green was saying a team wasn't as good as their record showed they were. There are reasons why their results are what they are. The question is, are they addressing those factors. I say yes. What say you?

 

[Deleted member 654622]

The sudden interest in rank per player is hilarious. Surely that's the result of some deep introspection about recruit ranking methodologies and has absolutely nothing to do with self-interested spin.

It's also quite amazing how the literal instant the coach gets fired every guy who doesn't become a star under the next coach is suddenly "not a Big Ten player".

Are they physically transported to the MAC I wonder? Like did Chayce Crouch magically wake up in Bowling Green, OH on March 7, 2016 and have to find his way back to Champaign somehow?

Always fun times with you guys.

I would have to say looking at the other quality offers of the players is the best indication of their MAC/B1G Talent. Did someone not post a comparison to this point recently? I believe it showed we are brining in players that other Power 5 teams actually wanted on a greater scale. If ILL was their only Power 5 offer, does that not indicate they are probably more a MAC talent?

 

[mattcoldagelli]

TLDR - my point is that gritty's attitude is self-defeating and puts us in a perpetual death spiral

Huh? Are you reading his posts?

If we were anything other than the most downtrodden athletic department in the country, we would have WAY more posters here - including, assuredly, some wild-eyed zealots who would've thought a parking lot firing was warranted if not after the Purdue game, then certainly the Iowa game - and @ChiefGritty would look self-evidently like the aggressive moderate that he is.

I don't know how you get "death spiral" from a position that is essentially "it's pretty much never been done before but is also still kinda plausible!"

 

[Deleted member 645583]

How about some plain, simple and direct English for a change? No obfuscation, please. Ha!

FWIW I think Whitman did the right thing by extending Lovie's contract. You probably wouldn't have Beason, Williams, Ford, Thomas et al commiting to Illinois without Lovie. And thanks to Patterson and other recruiters. Go Illini!

 

[Title]

No clue

the documentary only showed about 6 or 7 players. All I know is that he never cracked the Top 12 during the 3 day period.

There were articles written about IW. Most weren't too positive however It is a gauge to show where he is and how much work needs to be done. The kid is a hard worker and determine so if there is a chance he will take advantage of it.

 

[Deleted member 649710]

I don't think that it is hyperbole to say that Lovie walked into the worst P5 situation of the past decade: a team that had been mostly bad for 20 years, little talent, outdated facilities, interim AD, interim Chancellor, third coach in less than a year, just coming out of a player abuse scandal. And he was brought on too late to do any recruiting for his first class. Really, it couldn't get much worse other than an NCAA imposed death penalty. Illini Football was the dumpster fire of all dumpster fires, and we should not lose sight of that.

The team has "underperformed the talent level" the past few years only if you assume that three star underclassmen should perform at a level equal to three star upperclassmen. I don't. We've seen before the past two seasons that Illinois was going to be one of the youngest teams in the nation. I expected them to take their lumps. They did. Now, hopefully starting next season, that baptism by fire will start to pay off. We'll see.

If Lovie can manage to get this team back to .500 ball next year, that's a nice accomplishment. The offense showed strides last year that one can reasonably expect to continue. If the defense can just be adequate, the overall record should be decent. Blowout losses won't be acceptable. A lot depends on who gets hired to coach the defense. I'm willing to let the process play out. If its four or less wins next year, I think Lovie's gone; six or more, everyone will be happy.

 

[soupy17]

I doubt we're on his radar, and I question our interest, but Jalen Hurts is now in the NCAA Transfer Portal.

 

[ChiefGritty]

I don't think that it is hyperbole to say that Lovie walked into the worst P5 situation of the past decade

When David Beaty took over at Kansas in 2014 he had 39 scholarship players. So, you're cooked just right there.

Zooming out, Lovie entered his first season with more talent (per the 247 composite) than 6 other Power Five schools. Kansas was one of them, dead last.

The rest of the list honestly shocked me. Washington State, Syracuse, Wake Forest, Purdue and Kansas State. ALL FIVE of those schools have been to multiple bowls since then.

The "dumpster fire of all dumpster fires" narrative is an easily demonstrable falsehood that only exists as a cognitive shortcut to the desired outcome that Lovie's critics are wrong and that he had done a good job so far at Illinois.

What I'm trying to get across is that "Lovie's critics are wrong and he's done a good job" is a completely unnecessary ballast to the argument that really matters: that Lovie is the right coach to lead us forward and that the future is bright. You can understand the weakness of the former argument while believing in the strength of the latter.

It is a bad intellectual habit to decide you are pro or anti something and then begin to not only blindly accept any argument that points in that direction, but actively create wrong arguments yourself in order to fight against contradictory evidence. That way lies our politics, and god knows what a mess that is.