Illinois Football Recruiting Thread

[Dbell1981]

I don't think that it is hyperbole to say that Lovie walked into the worst P5 situation of the past decade: a team that had been mostly bad for 20 years, little talent, outdated facilities, interim AD, interim Chancellor, third coach in less than a year, just coming out of a player abuse scandal. And he was brought on too late to do any recruiting for his first class. Really, it couldn't get much worse other than an NCAA imposed death penalty. Illini Football was the dumpster fire of all dumpster fires, and we should not lose sight of that.

The team has "underperformed the talent level" the past few years only if you assume that three star underclassmen should perform at a level equal to three star upperclassmen. I don't. We've seen before the past two seasons that Illinois was going to be one of the youngest teams in the nation. I expected them to take their lumps. They did. Now, hopefully starting next season, that baptism by fire will start to pay off. We'll see.

If Lovie can manage to get this team back to .500 ball next year, that's a nice accomplishment. The offense showed strides last year that one can reasonably expect to continue. If the defense can just be adequate, the overall record should be decent. Blowout losses won't be acceptable. A lot depends on who gets hired to coach the defense. I'm willing to let the process play out. If its four or less wins next year, I think Lovie's gone; six or more, everyone will be happy.

Great post. Let's not fail to mention how good our O line did this year after that horrible flipping sides crap McGee had them doing(considering age and experience of course). Another year of experience for all but 1 of them is gonna pay huge dividends.

 

[Hoppy2105]

When David Beaty took over at Kansas in 2014 he had 39 scholarship players. So, you're cooked just right there.

Zooming out, Lovie entered his first season with more talent (per the 247 composite) than 6 other Power Five schools. Kansas was one of them, dead last.

The rest of the list honestly shocked me. Washington State, Syracuse, Wake Forest, Purdue and Kansas State. ALL FIVE of those schools have been to multiple bowls since then.

The "dumpster fire of all dumpster fires" narrative is an easily demonstrable falsehood that only exists as a cognitive shortcut to the desired outcome that Lovie's critics are wrong and that he had done a good job so far at Illinois.

What I'm trying to get across is that "Lovie's critics are wrong and he's done a good job" is a completely unnecessary ballast to the argument that really matters: that Lovie is the right coach to lead us forward and that the future is bright. You can understand the weakness of the former argument while believing in the strength of the latter.

It is a bad intellectual habit to decide you are pro or anti something and then begin to not only blindly accept any argument that points in that direction, but actively create wrong arguments yourself in order to fight against contradictory evidence. That way lies our politics, and god knows what a mess that is.

HEY! Our politics are perfect and I won’t have some tree huggin, left wing, hippie liberal sayin anything otherwise.

‘MERICA :usa:

(Just in case...please everyone turn your sarcasm meters way up)

 

[mattcoldagelli]

What I'm trying to get across is that "Lovie's critics are wrong and he's done a good job" is a completely unnecessary ballast to the argument that really matters: that Lovie is the right coach to lead us forward and that the future is bright. You can understand the weakness of the former argument while believing in the strength of the latter

Right, I don't get what is so hard to grasp here. There's no extra credit for getting the program back to respectability and then proudly being able to say "and nary a mistake was made!" All that matters is getting back there. On a board that regurgitates the Alvarez Corollary with frightening regularity, I'm surprised that what everybody takes from that example is "gotta stand by the coach through thick and thin, no questions asked." That's silly.

Is it controversial to say Garrick McGee, for instance, was a total disaster? I (and Reggie Corbin) am pretty sure it is not! But Rod Smith looks like a great hire. Conversely, Cory Patterson is working out great, contrary to Robert's First-Ballot Bad Take HOF prediction otherwise. It's been a mixed bag, and I don't know how you could argue anything else with a straight face. IMO the most compelling argument would be "Well, Lovie thought he could bring in a certain type of guy, learned that college isn't the NFL, and changed things up and isn't likely to make those mistakes again." But you have to admit that bad - near program-crippling - mistakes were made for that to be possible.

 

[Deleted member 654622]

When David Beaty took over at Kansas in 2014 he had 39 scholarship players. So, you're cooked just right there.
Zooming out, Lovie entered his first season with more talent (per the 247 composite) than 6 other Power Five schools. Kansas was one of them, dead last.

Here is my issue with these arguments. Did any of those coaches decide to do what Lovie and Whitman did? Regardless of the answer, their is so many variables involved in the success of a college football program. I do not even like doing any comparison honestly. I try to work in the things I know. And I know he is adjusting as evidenced by his coaching hires and his recruiting efforts. I know he failed to win ball games in his first few years. That does not mean he is not fully capable of winning ball games in the future. If you have the developed talent, you will win ball games.

 

[Deleted member 654622]

Right, I don't get what is so hard to grasp here. There's no extra credit for getting the program back to respectability and then proudly being able to say "and nary a mistake was made!" All that matters is getting back there. On a board that regurgitates the Alvarez Corollary with frightening regularity, I'm surprised that what everybody takes from that example is "gotta stand by the coach through thick and thin, no questions asked." That's silly.

Is it controversial to say Garrick McGee, for instance, was a total disaster? I (and Reggie Corbin) am pretty sure it is not! But Rod Smith looks like a great hire. Conversely, Cory Patterson is working out great, contrary to Robert's First-Ballot Bad Take HOF prediction otherwise. It's been a mixed bag, and I don't know how you could argue anything else with a straight face. IMO the most compelling argument would be "Well, Lovie thought he could bring in a certain type of guy, learned that college isn't the NFL, and changed things up and isn't likely to make those mistakes again." But you have to admit that bad - near program-crippling - mistakes were made for that to be possible.

I don't think anyone on here is trying to do those things. What is getting everyone up in arms is the fact we just had 2 fantastic weeks in Illinois Football, and some responses are to drag it through the mud. Yes the football team was bad, blah blah blah. But stop ishing on really good news just for the sake on ishing on something.

 

[Hoppy2105]

Right, I don't get what is so hard to grasp here. There's no extra credit for getting the program back to respectability and then proudly being able to say "and nary a mistake was made!" All that matters is getting back there. On a board that regurgitates the Alvarez Corollary with frightening regularity, I'm surprised that what everybody takes from that example is "gotta stand by the coach through thick and thin, no questions asked." That's silly.

Is it controversial to say Garrick McGee, for instance, was a total disaster? I (and Reggie Corbin) am pretty sure it is not! But Rod Smith looks like a great hire. Conversely, Cory Patterson is working out great, contrary to Robert's First-Ballot Bad Take HOF prediction otherwise. It's been a mixed bag, and I don't know how you could argue anything else with a straight face. IMO the most compelling argument would be "Well, Lovie thought he could bring in a certain type of guy, learned that college isn't the NFL, and changed things up and isn't likely to make those mistakes again." But you have to admit that bad - near program-crippling - mistakes were made for that to be possible.

The rough thing is that after we righted the ship on the offensive side we looked over and saw that the defensive side was basically under water.

I wonder if Lovie was hoping beyond hope the D would step up in his 3rd year. That didn’t happen and now Lovie has to make changes going into year 4. I wonder what would have happened if we knew the defensive staff was going to implode last year and brought in something different and this year was year 2 of it.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[mattcoldagelli]

What is getting everyone up in arms is the fact we just had 2 fantastic weeks in Illinois Football, and some responses are to drag it through the mud. Yes the football team was bad, blah blah blah. But stop ishing on really good news just for the sake on ishing on something.

Having two good weeks is great! It shouldn't require this:

 

[Deleted member 654622]

Having two good weeks is great! It shouldn't require this:

Ok so we should act like they didn't happen?

 

[Poe's Law]

When David Beaty took over at Kansas in 2014 he had 39 scholarship players. So, you're cooked just right there.

Zooming out, Lovie entered his first season with more talent (per the 247 composite) than 6 other Power Five schools. Kansas was one of them, dead last.

The rest of the list honestly shocked me. Washington State, Syracuse, Wake Forest, Purdue and Kansas State. ALL FIVE of those schools have been to multiple bowls since then.

The "dumpster fire of all dumpster fires" narrative is an easily demonstrable falsehood that only exists as a cognitive shortcut to the desired outcome that Lovie's critics are wrong and that he had done a good job so far at Illinois.

What I'm trying to get across is that "Lovie's critics are wrong and he's done a good job" is a completely unnecessary ballast to the argument that really matters: that Lovie is the right coach to lead us forward and that the future is bright. You can understand the weakness of the former argument while believing in the strength of the latter.

It is a bad intellectual habit to decide you are pro or anti something and then begin to not only blindly accept any argument that points in that direction, but actively create wrong arguments yourself in order to fight against contradictory evidence. That way lies our politics, and god knows what a mess that is.

That's a lot of reliance on recruiting rankings that would ignore the following (for anybody who wants to make a dumpster fire argument):
1) Prior staffs ability (or lack there of) to find and get commitments from underrated talent
2) Prior staffs ability (or lack there of) to train/teach/improve/avoid maiming the talent and playing ability of recruited players
3) Impact of transfers and juco players (which I saw you included Lunt in one of your posts so you may have corrected for this).
4) Impact of the knife to the heart of the program (AKA hiring the Cubit family) and then the late hiring Lovie on the recruiting cycle.
5) Impact of going the "play the kids" route. This one was self inflicted, but you just don't see it much in college football rebuilds. The last two years have seen a tremendous amount of youth on the field. The 2017 squad might have been the youngest and most shallow (from a bench depth perspective) team I can remember in college football. To be fair I don't make a habit of watching KU, Rutgers, or the other P5 dumpster fires, so maybe it's not as rare as I think.

 

[MadSeason]

I don't know what "dumpster fire" means empirically. We did not have a robust talent level, that much is true. But we have badly, wildly under-performed the talent level we did have in each of Lovie's three seasons and have looked like a lost, badly coached team that doesn't really want to be there over and over and over again.

And I'm saying this as a Lovie ADVOCATE. No coach in the era for which we have good data has ever done what Lovie's done and ended up succeeding, period, not even close, and I still think he has a chance, maybe because I'm an idiot, I don't know. The sample size isn't that huge, new things happen all the time, who knows.

I think an intelligent fan ought to be able to support a coaching staff without relying on lazy, rote, politics-esque spin of all the same old narratives in their favor. It's literally always the same, he got handed a dumpster fire, you'll never get anywhere without stability, look at Barry Alvarez, blah, blah, blah. And the flipside goes too, when it's time for a coach to be fired, that's no excuse to make up a bunch of nonsense against them either. It's so incredibly boring.

I dunno, people who value empiricism tend to drift away from being fans of a particular team and become more generalist in their sports consumption. Sabermetric baseball people, basketblogger types, etc. I've always found it more rewarding to combine the two, and I have just never seen the tension there.

If there was ever a fan base less in need of a sobering reminder of where there program is and has been it is Illinois football fans. I don't think many here are dead certain that this thing is going to work for the long term. Bad programs generally stay bad, good programs generally stay good, none of which is particularly news worthy. Yes, there are outliers like Wisconsin and Tennessee going the other way but by in large it is hard to change one's plight.

As you have pointed out Lovie inherited a roster not completely void of talent but at or near the bottom of the Big 10. I don't think anyone with a straight face can argue the coaching has been great the first 3 years, particularly when you've had to fire your first OC and DC. Advanced stats and recruiting ranking are both quantifiable to an extent. Sure you can argue underrated this or overrated that, but as a whole on field success runs fairly parallel to recruiting success.

What isn't quantifiable and what none of us can know for certain is that Lovie took over a program mired in scandal, with an administration openly admitting that their previous coach and situation was not optimal. Dumpster fire? Maybe. The culture could not have been positive when Lovie got here. I will not argue that these events cause the defense we saw in 2018. There was enough talent and a similarly youthful offense progressed quite a bit. However asserting that this was ordinary rebuild like say Purdue who just had a bad coach is likely not the case.

On the one hand you argue based on recruiting that Lovie inherited more than his supporters cite, then scoff at those who point out the recruiting rankings of this years class. Not to mention 2 uber former prospects transfers and another talented guy from Oklahoma. It is perfectly legitimate to think big things may happen on the field with these upgrades.

It just seems that you want to be that voice of reason in a sea of utterly unrealistic and pollyanna fanbase. I personally don't think the base needs a reminder of how pitiful our history is or how bad the last 3 years were. Rod Smith and almost an entire improving offense returns. The former DC is gone and a rapidly maturing D almost completely returns, so there is reason for optimism there. A recruiting class consisting mostly of players with multiple P5 offers. Arguably the most talented player from the U last year hopping on board, a starter caliber Georgia transfer etc.

If I'm putting money on a Beckman rebuild in year 3 (prior to abuse being known) vs. Lovie rebuild, my money is on Lovie due to the talent he's bringing in versus the 70 something F/+ that Beckman had achieved for 3 years. Lovie went very youthful with rebuild making the advanced stats very ugly, we are about to see if it was wise, but I think all of us are cautiously optimistic at best

 

[ChiefGritty]

IMO the most compelling argument would be "Well, Lovie thought he could bring in a certain type of guy, learned that college isn't the NFL, and changed things up and isn't likely to make those mistakes again." But you have to admit that bad - near program-crippling - mistakes were made for that to be possible.

I think that's dead right. I also think, to @Dude 's point, that stripping the roster bare just to play a bunch of true freshmen was a mistake. I think that has a lot of explanatory power for why we were so bad in 2017, we indeed did have a roster not capable of winning games, a "dumpster fire" if you will, but one that Lovie CREATED rather than INHERITED.

But again, that's a mistake in the past not likely to repeat itself now that this is Lovie's roster.

So this year sets up a wonderful test. Lovie is now a seasoned college coach, and will have a staff he's built with that knowledge. He has a roster almost entirely made up of handpicked recruits, and is going to have highly touted recruits, experienced upperclassmen or both all over the two-deep.

This is what we've been aiming towards. The edifice is built, the schedule is soft, the opportunity is right there in front of us. Let's see it! I'm excited to watch it play out.

Where I get cranky is when people who also are feeling positive about these developments and see that this team is the culmination of the difficult process we've been through simultaneously pre-forgive failure. That shows an unwillingness to test these beliefs against the data, in my eyes.

If we're still playing way too many true freshmen, if we still look like we're playing a defense that college kids can't understand or execute, if we're still quitting in games and getting blown out, if we're not seeing development from kids who have played a ton and have become upperclassmen, if we're kicking more Lovie-recruited key cogs off the team, then we need to reassess and say hey, some of the things we were using to explain previous struggles are no longer part of the equation, and yet the struggles remain. Something doesn't add up about the way we were perceiving things before.

You've gotta be updating your views like that, because if you just set your brain to "the coach is good" and walk away, there will always be enough window dressing (rational or otherwise) to keep cognitive dissonance at bay.

 

[Dbell1981]

That's a lot of reliance on recruiting rankings that would ignore the following (for anybody who wants to make a dumpster fire argument):
1) Prior staffs ability (or lack there of) to find and get commitments from underrated talent
2) Prior staffs ability (or lack there of) to train/teach/improve/avoid maiming the talent and playing ability of recruited players
3) Impact of transfers and juco players (which I saw you included Lunt in one of your posts so you may have corrected for this).
4) Impact of the knife to the heart of the program (AKA hiring the Cubit family) and then the late hiring Lovie on the recruiting cycle.
5) Impact of going the "play the kids" route. This one was self inflicted, but you just don't see it much in college football rebuilds. The last two years have seen a tremendous amount of youth on the field. The 2017 squad might have been the youngest and most shallow (from a bench depth perspective) team I can remember in college football. To be fair I don't make a habit of watching KU, Rutgers, or the other P5 dumpster fires, so maybe it's not as rare as I think.

All those variables are basically immeasurable. They dont exist in gritty world.

 

[PtownIllini8]

I doubt we're on his radar, and I question our interest, but Jalen Hurts is now in the NCAA Transfer Portal.

You question our interest? No soup for you!

 

[BananaShampoo]

I think that's dead right. I also think, to @Dude 's point, that stripping the roster bare just to play a bunch of true freshmen was a mistake. I think that has a lot of explanatory power for why we were so bad in 2017, we indeed did have a roster not capable of winning games, a "dumpster fire" if you will, but one that Lovie CREATED rather than INHERITED.

But again, that's a mistake in the past not likely to repeat itself now that this is Lovie's roster.

So this year sets up a wonderful test. Lovie is now a seasoned college coach, and will have a staff he's built with that knowledge. He has a roster almost entirely made up of handpicked recruits, and is going to have highly touted recruits, experienced upperclassmen or both all over the two-deep.

This is what we've been aiming towards. The edifice is built, the schedule is soft, the opportunity is right there in front of us. Let's see it! I'm excited to watch it play out.

Where I get cranky is when people who also are feeling positive about these developments and see that this team is the culmination of the difficult process we've been through simultaneously pre-forgive failure. That shows an unwillingness to test these beliefs against the data, in my eyes.

If we're still playing way too many true freshmen, if we still look like we're playing a defense that college kids can't understand or execute, if we're still quitting in games and getting blown out, if we're not seeing development from kids who have played a ton and have become upperclassmen, if we're kicking more Lovie-recruited key cogs off the team, then we need to reassess and say hey, some of the things we were using to explain previous struggles are no longer part of the equation, and yet the struggles remain. Something doesn't add up about the way we were perceiving things before.

You've gotta be updating your views like that, because if you just set your brain to "the coach is good" and walk away, there will always be enough window dressing (rational or otherwise) to keep cognitive dissonance at bay.

Another thing that has to be mentioned is that Lovie's decision to basically gut his existing roster and play almost all freshmen was not made in a vacuum. He almost undoubtedly had the backing of Mr. Whitman to make such a ballsy move, knowing he had JW's full support of his vision for a long term rebuild. How many other coaches, including those that were actually ranked below us in talent level when Lovie started had that same support versus a "win ASAP" mentality? I'm going to guess none of them. Make no mistake, Whitman went all-in on Lovie with the hopes that he was building a long-term sustainable program and not just building towards one really good team and then for it to all fall off a cliff as it has in the past at Illinois. We haven't seen the results of that gamble yet, but let's hope it works. This coming season will give us a pretty idea if it will or not.

 

[Neidermeyer]

Another thing that has to be mentioned is that Lovie's decision to basically gut his existing roster and play almost all freshmen was not made in a vacuum. He almost undoubtedly had the backing of Mr. Whitman to make such a ballsy move, knowing he had JW's full support of his vision for a long term rebuild. How many other coaches, including those that were actually ranked below us in talent level when Lovie started had that same support versus a "win ASAP" mentality? I'm going to guess none of them. Make no mistake, Whitman went all-in on Lovie with the hopes that he was building a long-term sustainable program and not just building towards one really good team and then for it to all fall off a cliff as it has in the past at Illinois. We haven't seen the results of that gamble yet, but let's hope it works. This coming season will give us a pretty idea if it will or not.

Playing so many youngsters also gave him a ready made excuse for why we were so bad - if that makes sense??

 

[BackThatPassUp]

Lovie had no choice but to do a complete overhaul. Scandal aside, all experts saw that Illinois's biggest problem was Jimmys and Joes. Even if you assume there has only been an incremental gain in talent when assessing stars and ratios, nobody saw enough power 5 talent to be competitive.

 

[MadSeason]

Lovie had no choice but to do a complete overhaul. Scandal aside, all experts saw that Illinois's biggest problem was Jimmys and Joes. Even if you assume there has only been an incremental gain in talent when assessing stars and ratios, nobody saw enough power 5 talent to be competitive.

They certainly could have been more selective in keeping guys who could have made us better. the last 3 years Gerrick McGee's talent evaluation cost us, and I think Lovie should have been more measured in his roster reconstruction but 2019 is light years ahead of 2016 in roster talent

 

[mhuml32]

Is it controversial to say Garrick McGee, for instance, was a total disaster?

We're only allowed to bash a coach after they are fired. Then 7-10 years after they're gone, we get the takes on whether firing them was a mistake (see Zook + Weber)

 

[mhuml32]

Any insights on first to pop in the 2020 class? My guess is we're a ways out before that happens (~6 months?).

 

[BackThatPassUp]

They certainly could have been more selective in keeping guys who could have made us better. the last 3 years Gerrick McGee's talent evaluation cost us, and I think Lovie should have been more measured in his roster reconstruction but 2019 is light years ahead of 2016 in roster talent

That might not be as absolute as perceived. 2019 is a result of seeds planted years ago. We won't know what other talent we couldve gotten at the time since the Staff got off the ball late to even develop the relationships. You may very well be right in that we could've done better with the youth we did bring in but that's a strong "what if." The only certainty was our greater collective wasn't the solution.

 

[PtownIllini8]

Any insights on first to pop in the 2020 class? My guess is we're a ways out before that happens (~6 months?).

No insights, but I have a guess: Beason's cousin, Zeriah Beason, 4* WR.

 

[FT35]

Any insights on first to pop in the 2020 class? My guess is we're a ways out before that happens (~6 months?).

Thank you for trying to return the discussion directly back to recruiting.

I would hope Zeriah Beason sometime in March, just like his cousin did last year.

This would of course be followed by Mookie Cooper a couple of weeks later, much like IW.

I think guys like James Frenchie and Jalen St. John are also in play. I'm not sure about Reggie Love. I'm also not feeling great about any instate guys who are rated very high at the moment.

I truly hope the people who are talking about Henning taking us serious are correct because he would be a game changer for instate recruiting as he and Jadon Thompson want to play together. I believe Thompson has visited Purdue twice already, however. Then there are the ESL guys but it doesn't sound like they are in any hurry and they visited back in September anyways.

I believe the St. Louis Junior Day was in February last year. The Illinois Junior Day was in March I believe. Then we have Spring Official Visits.

This class could be really bad if we head into June without any commits. That's really when we start pushing for some under the radar guys.

As far as 2019 goes, with almost no scholarships left, I'm interested to see what other PWOs we can pick up besides Judd. There's a couple of instate OL out there that would be nice to have on the roster.

 

[mhuml32]

He inherited a team with one and two star talent. I'm glad to have those young men on the team, they're part of the Illini family, and they stepped up to do their best but Lovie knew long term success wasn't to be had with those guys.

Besides what was already pointed out (Illinois had plenty of higher-ranked kids), this is a simplification of how/which players are chosen and which are recommended to look for a new home.

For example (this has been discussed before), when Beckman was running the show, he wanted dual-threat QBs under Beatty and Gonzales. So Illinois signs Aaron Bailey (2013) and Chayce Crouch verbally commits (2014). Beatty and Gonzales are replaced with Cubit, who prefers pocket-passers. Bailey transfers out. Crouch sticks to his commitment. With Cubit now deciding on offensive personnel, Illinois signs Jeff George (grayshirt - 2014), Jimmy Fitzgerald (2015), and Eli Peters (2016), plus one transfer (Lunt). Two months after the 2016 signing period, Cubit is fired and Lovie is hired. Lovie (and McGee) want dual-threat QBs. So guess who transfers out? Peters, Fitzgerald, and George, all pocket-passers. Crouch stays on-board (dual threat!) but his shoulder injuries end his career. Since then, Illinois has brought in all dual-threat QBs (some better throwers, some better runners).

The issue is we really didn't get to see if Bailey, Fitzgerald, Peters, and Cam Thomas were good because they all dealt with OC changes and some of them dealt with a completely different view of what a college QB needs to be for Illinois. It's easy for us fans to accuse the transferring out athlete as those that were talented enough to make it in the B1G, but that is not an effective generalization (FYI, this is just one position and would apply to a whole host of other positions as well).

 

[mhuml32]

Thank you for trying to return the discussion directly back to recruiting.

I would hope Zeriah Beason sometime in March, just like his cousin did last year.

This would of course be followed by Mookie Cooper a couple of weeks later, much like IW.

I think guys like James Frenchie and Jalen St. John are also in play. I'm not sure about Reggie Love. I'm also not feeling great about any instate guys who are rated very high at the moment.

I truly hope the people who are talking about Henning taking us serious are correct because he would be a game changer for instate recruiting as he and Jadon Thompson want to play together. I believe Thompson has visited Purdue twice already, however. Then there are the ESL guys but it doesn't sound like they are in any hurry and they visited back in September anyways.

I believe the St. Louis Junior Day was in February last year. The Illinois Junior Day was in March I believe. Then we have Spring Official Visits.

This class could be really bad if we head into June without any commits. That's really when we start pushing for some under the radar guys.

As far as 2019 goes, with almost no scholarships left, I'm interested to see what other PWOs we can pick up besides Judd. There's a couple of instate OL out there that would be nice to have on the roster.

Beason + Cooper to start off the class would be incredible. I'm with you about having concerns about the in-state talent. MO doesn't have as many targets for the staff as '19. Maybe we see the slack picked up in FL (also dependent on who's brought in on the staff and their preferred recruiting areas).

 

[South Farms]

there are two lads of note from the East St Louis class of 2020 , Powell and Johnson, that would be awesome to snag.
Also, a big OT from OFallon , Ritchie that I'm sure is of interest.