Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (August 2018)

[Tevo]

The past 3 years Self has gone E8, E8, Final Four while Izzo has gone First Round, Second Round, Second Round, those losses to a 15 seed, and 11 seed, and a blowout at the hands of Self's Kansas.

All this with what were clearly, in my view, better, deeper more talented rosters than what Self had over the same period.

What Self got out of Frank Mason and Devonte Graham stands up there with anything Izzo, or Bo Ryan for that matter, has ever accomplished with a player.

I was going to say that I always remember Self for his bad losses early in the season (to Belmont seemingly every season) and in the tournament, but for some reason I have forgotten Izzo's. I think I just want to dislike Self and Kansas more.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

I was going to say that I always remember Self for his bad losses early in the season (to Belmont seemingly every season) and in the tournament, but for some reason I have forgotten Izzo's. I think I just want to dislike Self and Kansas more.

I totally get wanting to hate Self. I indulged in the Bucknell Bill schadenfreude as much as anyone back in the day. But Illinois fans desire to venerate Tom Izzo as the shining moral prince of college basketball is some combination of national writer narrative spin and Weber-era PTSD which mystifies me. That guy is a smarmy clown who I am desperate to get back to beating.

 

[coryfor3]

I don't like either one of them. No reason to really like either one. Both have been a pain in the Illini backside and, at various times, annoying, irritating and egotistical.

 

[sacraig]

I'm sorry, I'm afraid I'm gonna have to dunk on you for that one.

All rankings from final AP poll

...

The idea that the Big 12 is a weak conference is....wow. And all in service of some garbage third-hand Self narrative. This board's motivated reasoning seldom ceases to amaze.

I am not sure what "motivated reasoning" you think I have. There is no motivation here other than to say that in my opinion (which, I will remind you, was also part of your original post), the conference title at KU run is not one of "[t]he most underrated ongoing feat in all of sports". On the one hand I suppose there aren't all that many "ongoing feats" in all of sports right now. The important thing here, though, is that I don't think the achievement is underrated, as it gets talked about tons every single year, and with the exception of KU fans, Self gets lauded to death about it.

So sure, take whatever dunk you feel like you have earned. It doesn't really matter to me. I still don't feel like the achievement is underrated, and I still think that finishing the year with only one or two other top-25 teams in the conference does not indicate a week-in-week-out high level of competition. You are free to believe otherwise.

 

[Obelix]

On Izzo, and his coaching record, it is not just the last 3-4 years. If that is the main parameter, Jay Wright easily takes the crown. But in the last 20 years of basketball, where the dynamics have changed towards TV and national media exposure, AAU, and shoe company involvement, clearly favoring already established "name" programs and blue bloods, Izzo/MSU IMO stand alone as the only program that has consistently been elevated closer to the blue bloods. More than other established programs, like IU and UCLA (that have dropped), more than other programs and coaches (e.g., as good as Wisconsin/Ryan have been, MSU is viewed at a different level) and over a longer period of time (than, for example, Villanova). In that respect, Izzo stands alone.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

Izzo is a legend, no question. But he's not the walking deity he has been frequently billed as in recent years, and if I could start a program with 1995 Tom Izzo or 1995 Bill Self, I take Self all day long.

 

[Illwinsagain]

On Izzo, and his coaching record, it is not just the last 3-4 years. If that is the main parameter, Jay Wright easily takes the crown. But in the last 20 years of basketball, where the dynamics have changed towards TV and national media exposure, AAU, and shoe company involvement, clearly favoring already established "name" programs and blue bloods, Izzo/MSU IMO stand alone as the only program that has consistently been elevated closer to the blue bloods. More than other established programs, like IU and UCLA (that have dropped), more than other programs and coaches (e.g., as good as Wisconsin/Ryan have been, MSU is viewed at a different level) and over a longer period of time (than, for example, Villanova). In that respect, Izzo stands alone.

Arizona? I know that things are looking bleak at the moment, but with 2 different coaches, they have had some decent success.

 

[SeattleSlim]

While you guys continue to go at it I'll just throw this out there for y'all's amusement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports

... in case anyone might want to reconsider their original contention.

I'd just add that (IMHO) being knowledgeable about every item on the linked list would be a more impressive feat than anything Self (or any other coach) may have accomplished.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

While you guys continue to go at it I'll just throw this out there for y'all's amusement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports

... in case anyone might want to reconsider their original contention.

I'd just add that (IMHO) being knowledgeable about every item on the linked list would be a more impressive feat than anything Self (or any other coach) may have accomplished.

Leicester City winning the EPL is also badly underrated. The biggest upset in sports history, IMO.

COME GET THESE TAKES

 

[Obelix]

if I could start a program with 1995 Tom Izzo or 1995 Bill Self, I take Self all day long.

... and 3 years later you'd still be looking for a coach for the program you try to start

 

[SescIllini]

One thing I've learned about this board is not to trust "insiders". "Insiders" have been mostly wrong even on 50/50 calls, when they are right you have others on the board anointing them. The draw to Kentucky/Duke is strong because they have had a lot of success with one and done, and turning down millions if difficult for anyone The failures at the college level and NBA aren't as publicized. I'm encouraged by KW calling Illinois the homestate school and knowing the coaches/players (Ayo).

Biggest knock in going to Kentucky is that he will have several McAA type players who also want to be one and done. Some of those might even be sophomores when he arrives. At Illinois he will have a very unselfish guard in Ayo feeding him the ball.

 

[Deleted member 8213]

... and 3 years later you'd still be looking for a coach for the program you try to start

ZING!

 

[Obelix]

Biggest knock in going to Kentucky is that he will have several McAA type players who also want to be one and done. Some of those might even be sophomores when he arrives.

That would be the "sophomore" one-and-dones.

 

[Deleted member 8213]

That would be the "sophomore" one-and-dones.

They are a bit overdone. :noidea:

 

[skyIdub]

... and 3 years later you'd still be looking for a coach for the program you try to start

 

[sacraig]

Funny thing is that I think the biggest coaching accomplishment is how you take a Top 25 nationally ranked program, and turn it into a S*%t show for nearly 15 years, now that is an accomplishment that any other school would be hard pressed to do, or WANT to do. Yet Illinois seemed to have done it with ease....that's an accomplishment, not a good one, but a undeniably great BAD one!

Cant wait for this season and some athletic up and down games with relevancy around the corner I hope!

The problem there is how we decide which coach gets credit for that feat? Or do we lay it at the feet of the administrator types?

 

[PlayAZ]

The problem there is how we decide which coach gets credit for that feat? Or do we lay it at the feet of the administrator types?

We all know that blame belongs all around the program from the peak to the bottom, yes Groce would be the bottom btw.

 

[sacraig]

We all know that blame belongs all around the program from the peak to the bottom, yes Groce would be the bottom btw.

Hopefully Groce is the bottom, because if not, then that means we haven't hit bottom yet, and... yikes.

 

[dajuiceman2]

Dontaie Allen committed to Kentucky today. Definitely needed for Calipari given how most of his 5 star battles aren't going his way. Still some sticker shock in not seeing 5 stars under the player's name.

Don't think this does anything either good or bad for Whitney, but the timing is interesting considering Allen visited campus today.

 

[PlayAZ]

Whitney, Liddell with McKinney and a 4th next year? Yes the glasses are on...could you imagine those 3 with Ayo/Frazier and the rest....man that would be fun to see!

 

[t7nich]

Dontaie Allen committed to Kentucky today. Definitely needed for Calipari given how most of his 5 star battles aren't going his way. Still some sticker shock in not seeing 5 stars under the player's name.

Don't think this does anything either good or bad for Whitney, but the timing is interesting considering Allen visited campus today.

Bummer. I believe the Illini staff was high on that kid. But the early commitment allows us to put more focus on other prospects.

Agree that it likely has no effect on Whitney's decision.

 

[sacraig]

Whitney, Liddell with McKinney and a 4th next year? Yes the glasses are on...could you imagine those 3 with Ayo/Frazier and the rest....man that would be fun to see!

I think we should make this a new thing: orange-colored text for statements made through orange-colored glasses.

 

[TheGMan]

I think we should make this a new thing: orange-colored text for statements made through orange-colored glasses.

The whole board would be orange then.

 

[sacraig]

The whole board would be orange then.

Pfft. You haven't read much S&C, have you? And he posts a lot.

 

[Calvin]

I totally get wanting to hate Self.

I never have. I've always thought he would win a NC (hoped it would be here) and thought the real problem was Guenther. He's not a great game day coach IMO, and runs some pretty vanilla stuff. However, he knows how to assemble talent, and is an ace recruiter. His strengths far outweigh his weaknesses.

Had we kept him, I suspect we'd have become a long term juggernaut. I expect he was going to get stronger booster support at Kansas, and crying about in hindsight doesn't help anything. After the last decade though, I kinda wish I had a time machine. I'd go back far enough to win the lottery, then offer to pay his contract demands at the time.

You're welcome.