Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (January 2019)

[ChazzReinhold]

This is my thought too. I have no expertise in the field of nutrition or fitness, but I know jump shots and free throws suffer when legs tire. I don’t have the solution but I think it may be part of the problem. Not blaming anyone but all the Fletch love is laughable to me. We aren’t a body building team. We need athletes that have the endurance required to play basketball at a high level for 2 halves. Nutrition and training may play a part....

I think it's laughable that you think anyone on the team remotely resembles a body builder.

 

[Illiniguy13]

Not that I can see, frankly. When you're 5-14, that's just the reality of it.

Culture is the sum of a lot of little things, and we on the outside aren't really in a position to understand the inner-workings of the team on an intimate level, but when a team has a positive culture it's pretty obvious to watch, you've got mental toughness, resilience, attention to detail, confidence and player leadership. We've got some talent, we've got a lot of want-to, but we quite clearly lack those other things and have done so for a very long period at this point.

I've said this for awhile, when either of our sports are actually onto something good, it's gonna hit us all like a thunderbolt, it's gonna be so blindingly, undeniably obvious. We've all just forgotten what it looks and feels like.

So true. We will know it and feel it when it finally starts happening.

 

[sacraig]

Not that I can see, frankly. When you're 5-14, that's just the reality of it.

Culture is the sum of a lot of little things, and we on the outside aren't really in a position to understand the inner-workings of the team on an intimate level, but when a team has a positive culture it's pretty obvious to watch, you've got mental toughness, resilience, attention to detail, confidence and player leadership. We've got some talent, we've got a lot of want-to, but we quite clearly lack those other things and have done so for a very long period at this point.

I've said this for awhile, when either of our sports are actually onto something good, it's gonna hit us all like a thunderbolt, it's gonna be so blindingly, undeniably obvious. We've all just forgotten what it looks and feels like.

I, for one, think that the team culture appears to be much improved over the past two years, though certainly not yet back to the winning attitude that used to prevail. At least, this is how it looks to me from outside. Consider the points you mentioned:

Mental toughness: By and large you don't see this team hanging its head. Even late in a losing game, most of the team are still hustling and working their butts off. That's a massive improvement over the Groce teams, which tended to quit if they got down, which happened a lot.

Resilience: A lot of this is wrapped up in mental toughness, but I think the one big thing that still needs work is recovering after taking a punch from the other team. The effort is usually there, but we tend to enter desperation mode when the other team has a run and we get really sloppy. This is definitely an area that needs improvement. We need to weather the storm and punch back. Instead we flail.

Attention to detail: This comes in spurts for us. You can see us from time to time this year really putting it all together and the offense hums. We then go on big stretches where we get really sloppy. Whether that is due to desperation or complacency, I don't know. Either way, I am encouraged that we have started to see some flashes of what this should look like this year. I am, of course, discouraged that we can't seem to reliably put it all together for an entire game except against Minnesota.

Confidence: Winning will fix this. I think it helps that we have a bunch of guys who won a lot in high school, but the prolonged losing we've been doing seems to have shaken that confidence. We just need more Ws to fix this, IMO.

Leadership: This has been a weakness for a while, and in large part it has been because our upperclassmen have left or simply not been of the right personality to really carry the torch. Nichols has been a ghost this year. Black was fiery but I can't honestly say I recall seeing him rallying the troops. Finke was super passive. Shoot, even Hill wasn't really a vocal leader. Wonderful player, but, at least externally, he seemed to be more of a "lead by example" kind of guy. The point is that this deficit has been years in the making. I am hoping that people like Frazier and Bezhanishvili (and Dosunmu if he stays) can grow into those sorts of players, but time will tell.

Of course, this is just one fan's opinion based on watching these guys on TV. What do I know?

If the Illini could hit some shots and 3's the whole season would turn. Trent used to be the guy you thought when it left his hands you felt it would go in. I don't know if conditioning is messing with shooting, ...but something is.

The problem, in my opinion, is that consistent success requires that you don't rely on one player being "the guy." Sure, maybe you have a star who you want to take the last shot more often than not and on whom you can depend in a high-leverage situation. But, in the ebb and flow of a standard game, you really can't be relying only on a single guy to hit his shots. Scoring has to come from multiple directions if you want to keep a defense honest. Last year is a decent example because we really only had Frazier and Black reliably putting up numbers, and if they had an off night or the opposing defenses shut them down, we had to hope for a miracle performance from someone else like Nichols. That's not a path to consistent success.

 

[ChocolateThunder]

If the Illini could hit some shots and 3's the whole season would turn. Trent used to be the guy you thought when it left his hands you felt it would go in. I don't know if conditioning is messing with shooting, ...but something is.

 

[Deleted member 500209]

I think it's laughable that you think anyone on the team remotely resembles a body builder.

Time and again, loyalty ogles over body transformation in pre-season. I’d rather just see improvement in results. I wasn’t really suggesting any of our players would win an Olympic medal in body building.

 

[Illiniguy13]

People need to let the body transformation/Fletch stuff go. Please, please just trust the man and recognize he knows what he's doing better than any of us. He is not the problem, nor a magician.

 

[ChiefGritty]

I, for one, think that the team culture appears to be much improved over the past two years

It's kind of a competition of two tautologies, right? On the one hand 18-29 tells a very direct story. Your culture can't be good if your culture is that bad. On the other hand, because Brad Underwood should not be immediately fired, it must be the case that he is the right coach, and thus that the culture is good, and that all future success will reveal and indeed prove that 18-29 was evidence of good culture.

That last bit is what I reject. When it happens, we will know. When Underwood proves himself to be the right coach, it will be because of things that have yet to happen.

By and large you don't see this team hanging its head. Even late in a losing game, most of the team are still hustling and working their butts off.

Two totally different things, IMO, and the Underwood era has really sharply revealed the difference. We play hard as hell, and always have under Underwood. Occasionally we even look like we understand the system. But the sense of a sort of collective purpose has always seemed to be missing. It's like the lights are on but no one's home. And to the specifics of your point, our players literally hang their heads all the time, the body language is terrible.

This is all pretty loosey-goosey stuff, but if you want to know why a team that has some good players and a good coach and occasionally looks good nonetheless loses all their games, that's how it happens.

When it changes, we'll know.

 

[sacraig]

It's kind of a competition of two tautologies, right? On the one hand 18-29 tells a very direct story. Your culture can't be good if your culture is that bad. On the other hand, because Brad Underwood should not be immediately fired, it must be the case that he is the right coach, and thus that the culture is good, and that all future success will reveal and indeed prove that 18-29 was evidence of good culture.

That last bit is what I reject. When it happens, we will know. When Underwood proves himself to be the right coach, it will be because of things that have yet to happen.



Two totally different things, IMO, and the Underwood era has really sharply revealed the difference. We play hard as hell, and always have under Underwood. Occasionally we even look like we understand the system. But the sense of a sort of collective purpose has always seemed to be missing. It's like the lights are on but no one's home. And to the specifics of your point, our players literally hang their heads all the time, the body language is terrible.

This is all pretty loosey-goosey stuff, but if you want to know why a team that has some good players and a good coach and occasionally looks good nonetheless loses all their games, that's how it happens.

When it changes, we'll know.

To be clear, in no way do I think we are "there" yet, and I certainly don't think the improvements I mentioned I dicate that Underwood is necessarily the right coach. That's not the argument I was attempting to make.

Our poor record is a pretty good reason that Underwood still has a lot to prove. My feeling is just that, given the morass he inherited, the incremental improvements in culture (and maybe finally recruiting) give me hope that he may still prove to be the right coach despite the dismal records these first two years.

Time will tell.

 

[ChiefIllini]

I think it's laughable that you think anyone on the team remotely resembles a body builder.

Not to put words in his mouth, but he didn't claim that. I think he was just speaking to what kind of results Fletch is looking for, i.e. not building for a basketball body, but rather just to increase measurable and perhaps things such as muscle size.

One thing I will say, we seem to be a very healthy team (i.e. lacking in muscle injuries). I will give him credit for that much. And that means a lot, especially considering prior to him we had some pretty bad injury years.

 

[illini80]

It's kind of a competition of two tautologies, right? On the one hand 18-29 tells a very direct story. Your culture can't be good if your culture is that bad. On the other hand, because Brad Underwood should not be immediately fired, it must be the case that he is the right coach, and thus that the culture is good, and that all future success will reveal and indeed prove that 18-29 was evidence of good culture.

That last bit is what I reject. When it happens, we will know. When Underwood proves himself to be the right coach, it will be because of things that have yet to happen.



Two totally different things, IMO, and the Underwood era has really sharply revealed the difference. We play hard as hell, and always have under Underwood. Occasionally we even look like we understand the system. But the sense of a sort of collective purpose has always seemed to be missing. It's like the lights are on but no one's home. And to the specifics of your point, our players literally hang their heads all the time, the body language is terrible.

This is all pretty loosey-goosey stuff, but if you want to know why a team that has some good players and a good coach and occasionally looks good nonetheless loses all their games, that's how it happens.

When it changes, we'll know.

I agree with most of what you say. I’ll give you the sign I’m looking for. When we start to win games where we didn’t play well, then things have truly changed. Games like Minnesota where shots are falling and the ball is bouncing your way are not a sign of anything. Wisconsin was a perfect example of where we weren’t playing particularly well, but had a chance to win anyway. And we didn’t. That’s a big step to make that we have shown no signs of yet.

 

[illini80]

Not to put words in his mouth, but he didn't claim that. I think he was just speaking to what kind of results Fletch is looking for, i.e. not building for a basketball body, but rather just to increase measurable and perhaps things such as muscle size.

One thing I will say, we seem to be a very healthy team (i.e. lacking in muscle injuries). I will give him credit for that much. And that means a lot, especially considering prior to him we had some pretty bad injury years.

We need a guy like Fletch to transform bodies from skinny high school kids into someone strong enough to stand their ground in the B10. I do wonder if there is a piece that is missing there tho. Are we building their body to make them the best basketball player they can be? Maybe it was an isolated case, because I don’t follow these guy that go overseas after graduation that close, but the first thing Malcolm Hill did entering the pros was to lose some of his body mass to get quicker and faster. I’ve forgotten exactly how much, but 15# sticks in my head. Obviously the trainer for his team thought he was too bulked up.

 

[Illiniguy13]

I have been saying this since last year. This has also affected the free throw shooting. Focus should be on conditioning first and strength second. Being able to quickly go up and down the court for 40 minutes is not enhanced by larger muscles. The last 5 minutes of close games this year has shown bad free throw and field shooting and ineffective defense as missed shots turn into layups and dunks by opponents. I was hoping that the Weber/Groce teams blowing leads late in games was over but the Underwood teams have continued the pattern.

 

[dbeverly26]

People need to let the body transformation/Fletch stuff go. Please, please just trust the man and recognize he knows what he's doing better than any of us. He is not the problem, nor a magician.

Yep. I'd venture to guess that the stuff taught by S&C coaches is about 95% the same in most programs. They all read the same books, go to the same conferences, graduate from the same programs. Some might be better motivators, but there isn't a ton of magic there.

One thing that I think helps perception with Fletch is that he gets to work with a lot of younger kids who haven't had a ton of high-level strength coaching yet. That first year or two is where the gains happen, for the most part.

I think that he's a perfectly competent coach, and that's all he needs to be. But I laugh at the notion that somehow, his strength training is robbing our kids of the ability to shoot, or move laterally, or whatever. That's the same sort of stuff that kept baseball players out of the weight room for decades, and then the 1990s happened and changed the game. (Chemicals or no, I feel the same way.) The embrace of modern training has completely changed sports across the board, but now that everyone is doing it there isn't a ton of original work going on.

 

[ChocolateThunder]

Some players can benefit from the weight room. Georgi in 3 years????????

 

[sacraig]

Loyalty: "Mike Tisdale is eating 6 billion calories and is still rail thin, ZOMG!"

Also Loyalty: "These gangly freshman are putting on too much muscle!"

 

[ChiefGritty]

I think questioning of strength and conditioning staff is perfectly legitimate when we've seemed physically inferior to our opponents across a constantly churning roster and multiple head coaches and an awful lot of Rivals stars, and the one constant is Adam Fletcher.

That isn't the first place I'd point the finger to blame by any means, but anyone whose resume says "Illinois Basketball: August 2015-Present" has some explaining to do.

To give some credit to Fletch, he inherited a long-running injury crisis, which has definitely abated on his watch.

 

[illini80]

Loyalty: "Mike Tisdale is eating 6 billion calories and is still rail thin, ZOMG!"

Also Loyalty: "These gangly freshman are putting on too much muscle!"

Also Loyalty: I don’t agree so your clearly an idiot who has no idea what he’s talking about.

(Not directed at you or anyone else in partiular)

 

[sacraig]

Also Loyalty: I don’t agree so your clearly an idiot who has no idea what he’s talking about.

(Not directed at you or anyone else in partiular)

To be completely honest, it's probably fair to say I fall into that camp from time to time.

 

[illini80]

To be completely honest, it's probably fair to say I fall into that camp from time to time.

I think we all do to some point!

 

[PtownIllini8]

To be completely honest, it's probably fair to say I fall into that camp from time to time.

Yeah, it's best to try hard to stick to attacking an argument instead of using the ole' logical fallacy known as the ad hominem argument.

 

[Deleted member 500209]

Yep. I'd venture to guess that the stuff taught by S&C coaches is about 95% the same in most programs. They all read the same books, go to the same conferences, graduate from the same programs. Some might be better motivators, but there isn't a ton of magic there.

One thing that I think helps perception with Fletch is that he gets to work with a lot of younger kids who haven't had a ton of high-level strength coaching yet. That first year or two is where the gains happen, for the most part.

I think that he's a perfectly competent coach, and that's all he needs to be. But I laugh at the notion that somehow, his strength training is robbing our kids of the ability to shoot, or move laterally, or whatever. That's the same sort of stuff that kept baseball players out of the weight room for decades, and then the 1990s happened and changed the game. (Chemicals or no, I feel the same way.) The embrace of modern training has completely changed sports across the board, but now that everyone is doing it there isn't a ton of original work going on.

Agree with much of this. I wonder what Fletch’s W.A.R. is? (yes, I know that’s unfair due to the youth of our team). Recruiting will be our solution. Still confused why we seem to gas out but don’t pretend to know the answer.

 

[skyIdub]

It has been noted and documented that these kids are absolutely busting their arses every day. They are pressing, anxious, young, and tired of losing. I don't care who your trainer is, you are going to be (and look) exhausted until you can relax and play within the system efficiently. They have only shown spurts of this. The rest of the time they are like chickens with their heads cut off.

This isn't about Fletch or their physical ability at all. If anything physical, it is stamina. In which case...see above paragraph.

 

[Poe's Law]

Some players can benefit from the weight room. Georgi in 3 years????????
View attachment 4041

God I hope not...

He deserves better than the T-Wolves.

 

[ivwilsoniv]

Also Loyalty: I don’t agree so your clearly an idiot who has no idea what he’s talking about.

(Not directed at you or anyone else in partiular)

It's "you're," you idiot.

And this is directed at you in particular (with a lot of good humor involved).

 

[sacraig]

Agree with much of this. I wonder what Fletch’s W.A.R. is? (yes, I know that’s unfair due to the youth of our team). Recruiting will be our solution. Still confused why we seem to gas out but don’t pretend to know the answer.

To me, the two most visible indications of a S&C staff's success are whether the players are physically able to compete and the rate of preventable injuries. I think our staff is clearly succeeding on the latter. Personally, I don't think there is any real evidence to point to the idea that our shooting and second-half struggles are an indictment of the former. Maybe they are, but nothing seems very definitive to me.