Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (March 2018)

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#2,576      

foby

Bonnaroo Land
I get the opportunity cost argument, but I seem to be one of the few that is all-in on this Ramey pursuit. Given that we have a Freshman All-Conference PG and a top prospect already on board, the staff can afford to take a flier on Ramey. Sign him and you've got an instant impact playmaker. Miss and you've still got two guys that can very effectively run this offense. The risk-reward makes sense to me.

:thumb: Not to mention the recruiting impact on high-ranked players in the '19 and '20 classes.
 
#2,577      
Knowing when and how to quietly walk away from a recruitment is an under-discussed, underrated skill of a college basketball staff, and is an order of magnitude more difficult at Illinois.

Typically when we waste resources on guys that are not coming here (see Brunson), there are other players that we should direct those resources towards. At this late in the game, who do we propose to recruit other than Ramey? It seems like we’re dedicating the proper time to Jones and Hinson. It’s almost April and pickens are slim. I don’t think this is a case of wasted resources as much as it is the staff having limited options and plenty of time to recruit.
 
#2,578      
Typically when we waste resources on guys that are not coming here (see Brunson), there are other players that we should direct those resources towards. At this late in the game, who do we propose to recruit other than Ramey?

2019 guys seems like the logical answer to that question.

But we are in an odd, unique (IMO suboptimal) scenario right now trying to fill out so many '18 schollies, so I'd agree that it's not the cleanest hypothetical.
 
#2,579      
Typically when we waste resources on guys that are not coming here (see Brunson), there are other players that we should direct those resources towards. At this late in the game, who do we propose to recruit other than Ramey? It seems like we’re dedicating the proper time to Jones and Hinson. It’s almost April and pickens are slim. I don’t think this is a case of wasted resources as much as it is the staff having limited options and plenty of time to recruit.
They could recruit for the '19 class I believe.

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#2,580      
2019 guys seems like the logical answer to that question.



But we are in an odd, unique (IMO suboptimal) scenario right now trying to fill out so many '18 schollies, so I'd agree that it's not the cleanest hypothetical.



Seems to me like we have a for sure one or two more players that will commit in the next couple weeks or months for 2018. In which I agree with you that we should be focusing more on 2019 recruits. I’m perfectly fine with rolling a scholarship over to next season.


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#2,581      
Seems to me like we have a for sure one or two more players that will commit in the next couple weeks or months for 2018. In which I agree with you that we should be focusing more on 2019 recruits. I’m perfectly fine with rolling a scholarship over to next season.

Leaving a scholarship open is never a good move. Fill it with a 5th year. Whats the point of having an open spot on the bench for a year? As we've seen this year (and literally every other year), attrition will happen. Rolling over scholarships is just a way of saying we couldn't fill all the roster spots.
 
#2,582      

BirdDog9048

The Chief Lives
Chicago, IL
Leaving a scholarship open is never a good move. Fill it with a 5th year. Whats the point of having an open spot on the bench for a year? As we've seen this year (and literally every other year), attrition will happen. Rolling over scholarships is just a way of saying we couldn't fill all the roster spots.
If the right 5th year doesn't present himself, you roll it over and give it to a walk-on for a year. Adding a 5th year guy that thinks he's better than he is and then sits on the bench while freshmen get playing time is a potential chemistry cancer for the team.
 
#2,583      
2019 guys seems like the logical answer to that question.

But we are in an odd, unique (IMO suboptimal) scenario right now trying to fill out so many '18 schollies, so I'd agree that it's not the cleanest hypothetical.

Recruiting for 2019 picks up in about a month or so with spring AAU. We were at Liddell and Okoro’s games at the end of the year. Right now no one is playing basketball. We could fly in to see Whitney I guess and pull him out of class to chat about basketball, but the in homes and visits typically occur around the time the kids are making decisions. I’m normally with you guys when we’re recruiting players we’re not going to get, but right now it seems like it’s recruit 2018’s to close out the class.
 
#2,584      

TownieMatt

CU Expat
Chicago
Who very possibly causes one of your two crown jewels to transfer at some point in the relatively near future. That's why I don't get the Ramey push. Ayo and Frazier both need to be ball-heavy, offense-initiating point guards. College basketball history, including famously at Illinois, is replete with teams that used two of those guys at once to great effect. But not three, particularly not in this system that prioritizes length on defense.

Transfer numbers are exploding in college basketball. Guys with big opportunities elsewhere (true of Smith, Frazier, Ayo and certainly Ramey) don't just sit around on the bench or out of position anymore.

Maybe an optimistic case is that the three guys challenge one another and the best two rise and the other one leaves, but can you be 1000% sure of that? And also, that only heightens the opportunity cost argument. We could be pushing our way into a recruitment that fills a hole and doesn't unbalance the roster.

Ramey is a stud, and if he's dying to come here you take him and figure it out later. But spending big man-hours pushing our way into that recruitment has never made a ton of sense to me, though obviously the player himself is not the only factor as he's the son of a prominent AAU coach in a market we're trying to break into more generally. Those kinds of calculations are ultimately ones that it's tough to analyze from the outside.

Ayo actually isn't all that ball-dominant on his current Morgan Park team. If you watch him play in that system, he doesn't initiate the offense, he sets up on the wing ready to catch and drive or shoot. Ayo's certainly capable of being ball-dominant—he did it a ton his Junior season at MP—but I think his development off the ball is part of the reason we're pursuing Ramey.

As for transfers, I think you have to embrace it as a coach now. Bring in the best players possible and let them compete for PT. We saw that with Mark Smith this year. He wanted Frazier's role, but wasn't good enough to take it so he moved on. In my view, that's not the worst thing in the world.
 
#2,585      
Who very possibly causes one of your two crown jewels to transfer at some point in the relatively near future. That's why I don't get the Ramey push. Ayo and Frazier both need to be ball-heavy, offense-initiating point guards. College basketball history, including famously at Illinois, is replete with teams that used two of those guys at once to great effect. But not three, particularly not in this system that prioritizes length on defense.

Transfer numbers are exploding in college basketball. Guys with big opportunities elsewhere (true of Smith, Frazier, Ayo and certainly Ramey) don't just sit around on the bench or out of position anymore.

Maybe an optimistic case is that the three guys challenge one another and the best two rise and the other one leaves, but can you be 1000% sure of that? And also, that only heightens the opportunity cost argument. We could be pushing our way into a recruitment that fills a hole and doesn't unbalance the roster.

Ramey is a stud, and if he's dying to come here you take him and figure it out later. But spending big man-hours pushing our way into that recruitment has never made a ton of sense to me, though obviously the player himself is not the only factor as he's the son of a prominent AAU coach in a market we're trying to break into more generally. Those kinds of calculations are ultimately ones that it's tough to analyze from the outside.

Ramey and Ayo are both around 6’4”. They certainly have the length to guard 2s and 3s. And I don’t know a lot about Ramey, but my understanding is that he’s more of a floor general / lockdown defender / ultimate winner type. If true, a guy like that could put two scoring guards in position to put up big numbers.
 
#2,586      

illini80

Forgottonia
Ayo actually isn't all that ball-dominant on his current Morgan Park team. If you watch him play in that system, he doesn't initiate the offense, he sets up on the wing ready to catch and drive or shoot. Ayo's certainly capable of being ball-dominant—he did it a ton his Junior season at MP—but I think his development off the ball is part of the reason we're pursuing Ramey.

As for transfers, I think you have to embrace it as a coach now. Bring in the best players possible and let them compete for PT. We saw that with Mark Smith this year. He wanted Frazier's role, but wasn't good enough to take it so he moved on. In my view, that's not the worst thing in the world.
Agree with all of this. Plus I think Ramey would improve our chances with Okoro and Liddell.
 
#2,587      

Deleted member 4333

D
Guest
Leaving a scholarship open is never a good move. Fill it with a 5th year. Whats the point of having an open spot on the bench for a year? As we've seen this year (and literally every other year), attrition will happen. Rolling over scholarships is just a way of saying we couldn't fill all the roster spots.

We had two open scholarships this year and everything turned out fine. Oh, wait . . .
 
#2,588      

Joel Goodson

respect my decision™
Knowing when and how to quietly walk away from a recruitment is an under-discussed, underrated skill of a college basketball staff, and is an order of magnitude more difficult at Illinois.

+infinity to the first part of your post. Although "quietly" is a given. The bolded part is more patented S&C hyperbole.
 
#2,589      
Who very possibly causes one of your two crown jewels to transfer at some point in the relatively near future. That's why I don't get the Ramey push. Ayo and Frazier both need to be ball-heavy, offense-initiating point guards. College basketball history, including famously at Illinois, is replete with teams that used two of those guys at once to great effect. But not three, particularly not in this system that prioritizes length on defense.

Different defense but had some success with Dee Brown, Deron Williams and
Luther Head at about the same size. Also three men to cover two positions still gives decent minutes and a backup if someone is hurt. I thought TeJon was excellent for this role but evidently not what he wanted. Maybe DaMonte can fill the third guard but haven't seen him in this role.
 
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#2,590      
Ayo actually isn't all that ball-dominant on his current Morgan Park team. If you watch him play in that system, he doesn't initiate the offense, he sets up on the wing ready to catch and drive or shoot. Ayo's certainly capable of being ball-dominant—he did it a ton his Junior season at MP—but I think his development off the ball is part of the reason we're pursuing Ramey.

Ayo plays both PG and SG at MP, the same for Adam Miller and that dual role will continue at Illinois with Frazier. But he is pretty ball-dominant even on the processions that he is the SG. Ayo gets the majority of touches and ball processions at MP.

The other thing of importance is the desire of the players. Playing SG and off-guard in college is not the most desirable position for players like Frazier, Ayo, and Ramey. If they want to make it to the next level, and I assume they all have such aspirations, they need to prove that they can be true PGs in college. It is very hard to convince two of them that they can play together and share the same position, almost impossible to convince 3 PGs of that caliber.
 
#2,591      
If the right 5th year doesn't present himself, you roll it over and give it to a walk-on for a year. Adding a 5th year guy that thinks he's better than he is and then sits on the bench while freshmen get playing time is a potential chemistry cancer for the team.

I mean sure you dont add a guy just to use up a scholarship, and its obviously the coaches duty to lay out what kind of role a 5th year will have.

The fact is, there are a lot of 5th year guys that could play some sort of role on this team next year. And having unused scholarships is pointless. Rolling over scholarships points to a coach that does not have full control (or awareness) of his roster (whether that be unexpected transfers or inability to recruit.) I give BU a break last year and actually think he did well to find bodies, and heck I'll give him one this year, but having a trend of not using all the scholarships available is, in my opinion, a negative that shouldn't be ignored towards most coaches (exceptions being schools that have so much talent, that the 10th, 11th, or 12th guys off the bench are capable replacement players, ala the Dukes, UNCs, and Kansas').
 
#2,592      

ILL in IA

Iowa City
If the right 5th year doesn't present himself, you roll it over and give it to a walk-on for a year. Adding a 5th year guy that thinks he's better than he is and then sits on the bench while freshmen get playing time is a potential chemistry cancer for the team.
Give it to a walk-on at semester. Leave it open for the first half of the season for possible mid-season transfer options. Like we did with Kip
 
#2,593      
The fact is, there are a lot of 5th year guys that could play some sort of role on this team next year.

I agree, everyone wants the big name high impact 5th year transfer (big) but given the current state of the program, it is much less likely to happen. Yet, we have a lot of gaps, and we are very thin in the frontcourt, so there are definitely 5th year role players who can help and Illinois will not pass up such opportunity if it presents itself.
 
#2,594      
Given what happened with recruits in the past (supposedly) and Ayo + family and inner circles feelings - I’d think that they have had some discussion with them about how he feels about playing alongside Ramey.


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#2,595      
I would love to have the "problem" of having 3 outstanding point guards on the team.
 
#2,596      

BirdDog9048

The Chief Lives
Chicago, IL
Give it to a walk-on at semester. Leave it open for the first half of the season for possible mid-season transfer options. Like we did with Kip
This.

And then you get all the feel good stories associated with a walk-on "earning a scholarship".
 
#2,598      
Give it to a walk-on at semester. Leave it open for the first half of the season for possible mid-season transfer options. Like we did with Kip

Less likely to happen as this scenario takes away from 2019 scholarships. We definitely need a very strong 2019 fall recruiting class, and I really doubt we will voluntarily carry open scholarships in the Spring unless we strike out again in the fall.
 
#2,600      
+infinity to the first part of your post. Although "quietly" is a given. The bolded part is more patented S&C hyperbole.

Illinois and Indiana are the only two programs I'm aware of where there a built-in fan and media psychodrama for multiple prominent in-state recruits every year.

Some schools are in states that don't produce that kind of talent so those dramas are rare exceptions, others don't have the singular flagship prominence to demand that kind of attention, others (Texas, Florida) are football schools where the temperature is turned down a bit on that sort of thing. UNC usually gets their man, and if not they're usually going to another in-state school.

But the massive external pressure to recruit certain kids whether or not they fit and whether or not the school has any realistic chance of landing them is a burden that seems unique to us and IU.

To me, there is no striking a balance with that influence. You either succumb to it, do whatever it takes NCAA-legal or otherwise to remain stocked with elite in-state kids and just sorta roll the ball out (see Henson, Lou), or you explicitly reject it and base your program around fit to a system and players who recognize the opportunity to play for a Big Ten school under a coach who can develop your specific talents, taking a pass on circus recruitments altogether.

My frustration with Underwood is borne out of my initial hope that he was going to affirmatively take the program in the latter direction, but instead seeing that he seems to be getting pulled in both directions, just like Weber and Groce before him.

(You could argue Bill Self balanced the two. But he's a Hall of Fame unicorn. He ain't walking through that door.)
 
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