Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (October 2016)

[Second and Chalmers]

There is no market for it to provide the ROI. If there was a potential market, even at the expense of college, they would have done it. There have been multiple efforts to create a new sport market in major sports (e.g., USFL, ABA, CBA) and they all failed, despite the willingness of investors at the time to make large investments.

The minor leagues are not a profit center for MLB. They are a business expense of MLB. They cover most of the expenses for minor league teams in exchange for the right to place their players on those teams.

MLB would make money in the short term withdrawing from the minor league system and letting independent minor leagues and the college game develop their talent for them. But beyond just the tradition, the MLB views in-house player development as something worth spending on.

There is no question that letting college basketball (and Europe, and independent minor basketball leagues like the old CBA) do their player development work for them is the most cost-effective option for the NBA. And if that were what the NBA league office was saying, that would be the end of it. But instead they are pouring money into the D-League and openly discussing shouldering more of that burden themselves. Your disagreement is with Adam Silver, not me.

 

[bert1991]

It's actually a nice community to live in. But I grew up in Decatur, so...

Campus, though, is no comparison to UI.

Hey, I grew up in Decatur too
Douglas MacArthur graduate. Nice to have another Decaturite on Illinois Loyalty

 

[illveteran1]

I grew up in Decatur too...there's nothing wrong with Decatur.

 

[Obelix]

The minor leagues are not a profit center for MLB. They are a business expense of MLB. They cover most of the expenses for minor league teams in exchange for the right to place their players on those teams.

MLB would make money in the short term withdrawing from the minor league system and letting independent minor leagues and the college game develop their talent for them. But beyond just the tradition, the MLB views in-house player development as something worth spending on.

ROI has nothing to do with being a profit center or cost center for MLB. Minor League baseball provides a huge return on investment for MLB. D-League has not, thus the mediocre investment in salaries, benefits, etc.

There is no question that letting college basketball (and Europe, and independent minor basketball leagues like the old CBA) do their player development work for them is the most cost-effective option for the NBA.

College basketball and International (primarily Europe and little bit in Australia) are the two clear paths to the NBA. Europe has a very strong market for basketball, with club teams and junior club teams, and no college or HS following. Totally different from the CBA.

And if that were what the NBA league office was saying, that would be the end of it. But instead they are pouring money into the D-League and openly discussing shouldering more of that burden themselves. Your disagreement is with Adam Silver, not me.

LOL... I love that you bring Adam Silver into the discussion. Your argument was that D-League could work with higher investments and development.

Obviously the current investment is mediocre, with $16K average salaries and no real benefits. Apparently the NBA has not seen the reason to make higher investments, but if they do, and D-League becomes a success with strong following, we can talk.

 

[Dbell1981]

Live in Decatur too. Not much for entertainment so it leads to bad choices by teens. Lots of good people in this town tho. Every once in a while we have a stud athlete that seems to go unnoticed.

 

[skyIdub]

All the chat about GTFO of your hometown makes me think of the first time I toured around SoCal including around UCLA and Beverly Hills. It's hard to describe how mesmerizing it is when you've been in Central Illinois (Indiana) most of your life. I'll never forget the drive down the street in Beverly Hills with all the palm trees lining both sides of the street...Windsor? Cannon? Beverly?.(like Eddie Murphy in Beverly Hills Cop!)
I try not to conform too much to the standard Illini fan neuroticism over this recruiting stuff, but if they can find a way to get Wilkes' parents to a lot of the home games (and I think they can/could), I can easily see him bugging out to SoCal, but that's just my idle thoughts based on getting out of the midwest/small town.

Put me down for a 12 pack of Shiner Bock on UCLA!

 

[Second and Chalmers]

Your argument was that D-League could work with higher investments and development.

Not it wasn't. I have no idea whether it could or not. I don't even know what "work" means.

I highly doubt the D-League would ever be a marketable television product the way college basketball is, even if they had the best of the talent.

You think I'm making some argument about the financial viability of the D-League as a sports league in its own right. I'm not. I'm just spitballing based on what the league has been saying and doing publicly.

Your argument seems to be "talk is cheap, when the rubber meets the road the NBA will never waste its money stashing draft picks in the D-League on NBA-type salaries". You may be right. I take no position on that argument.

But the greater investment in the D-League HAS ALREADY HAPPENED. That is an existing fact. There were 6 teams in the NBDL in 2004, all independently owned. Now there are 22, most owned and operated by NBA franchises. I make no claims or predictions as to where it goes from here, I'm just observing what's happening.

Obviously the current investment is mediocre, with $16K average salaries and no real benefits.

For the record, the handful of players on NBA contracts who get "stashed" in the D-League make their NBA salaries while down there. For example, when the Grizzlies sent Hasheem Thabeet down to the D-League, they didn't cut his multimillion dollar salary down to $16k.

 

[frozenrope9190]

For example, when the Grizzlies sent Hasheem Thabeet down to the D-League, they didn't cut his multimillion dollar salary down to $16k.

By the way, that would really suck to be playing in a D-League making 16k while a draft pick dropped to D-League is making multi millions. I can understand the MLB disparity better since the minimum is 500k or so. 16k is poverty wage, to be guarding a multi-millionaire would make me want to learn to speak Greek and move overseas.

 

[combes]

College basketball works with less talent than the NBA because of the loyalty of fans/alumni to the schools.

A D-league would have a hard time getting that kind of allegiance even with better talent. Fans want to either see the best talent in the world (NBA) or the players who play for their beloved institution (college). It would be hard for an in-between league to ever develop much of a following, imo.

 

[Obelix]

But the greater investment in the D-League HAS ALREADY HAPPENED. That is an existing fact. There were 6 teams in the NBDL in 2004, all independently owned. Now there are 22, most owned and operated by NBA franchises. I make no claims or predictions as to where it goes from here, I'm just observing what's happening.

Your argument was the college baseball rule would work with a "more developed D-League." If that already happened, what does "more developed" mean? Minor League baseball provides a clear and distinct path to MLB, D-League does not. D-League currently hosts "college players" and some internationals (who can't get the contracts in Europe) who could not make it to the NBA. It is not a path to NBA for HS players (domestic or international) like the Minor Leagues are to the MLB.

For the record, the handful of players on NBA contracts who get "stashed" in the D-League make their NBA salaries while down there. For example, when the Grizzlies sent Hasheem Thabeet down to the D-League, they didn't cut his multimillion dollar salary down to $16k.

Sure, there are a few those as I have mentioned in posts in the past about the D-League. But that has nothing to do with a path to the NBA for people not in the NBA and certainly not an alternative to college. These are officially NBA players with NBA contracts, not D-League contracts. Currently, a college scholarship (including tuition, room board, health benefits, stipend, etc.) is more than a D-League contract. Obviously, when you are off college and have no options (e.g., Europe, etc.) you will take it.

 

[Illiniwek06]

Seems relevant with all this D League chatter.

Anthony said a major issue he has been emphasizing in collective bargaining talks is increasing the number of "two-way contracts" that allow players to play for both D-League and NBA teams, thereby creating 44-60 more jobs. He said he also has been addressing increasing pay for D-League players to make it as lucrative to play domestically as abroad, and language that will encourage all 30 NBA teams to have a D-League affiliate.

The D-League will grow from 19 to 22 teams this year, but the players eventually would like to see all 30 teams with their own affiliate, Anthony said.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...randing-d-league-investing-player-development

 

[Obelix]

College basketball works with less talent than the NBA because of the loyalty of fans/alumni to the schools.

A D-league would have a hard time getting that kind of allegiance even with better talent. Fans want to either see the best talent in the world (NBA) or the players who play for their beloved institution (college). It would be hard for an in-between league to ever develop much of a following, imo.

Absolutely correct. MLB has had different dynamics and tradition and have been able to do it, but similar efforts in football and basketball all failed. The old CBA tried to make a movement and realized that the market was not there. Even in the old ABA, one of the premises (besides some big contracts and free style basketball) was their willingness to draft players out of HS and underclassmen, when the NBA back then did not. Failed despite huge investments.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

Your argument was the college baseball rule would work with a "more developed D-League." If that already happened, what does "more developed" mean?

Well the reason high school draftees went away was because many of those kids just sat on the bench and had no place to play. Owners didn't like spending money on useless assets, veteran players didn't like their jobs being taken by guys that couldn't play, and obviously it sucked for the development of the kids languishing on the bench.

When the NBDL was a 6-team pilot experiment, there wasn't enough stability or roster spots to start committing dozens of high school draftees to this new, fly by night league. Now that most teams have their own D-League team, the bandwidth exists to at least think about that sort of option. Doesn't mean it will happen, but the infrastructure now exists to soak up those extra players if needed.

It would mean more money out of owners pockets though, no question. It will not be some independently financially successful TV phenomenon. I share your skepticism, but I am consistently surprised by the rhetoric that comes out of the league office on this. They sound like they want to make a go of it. Maybe it's just a bargaining chip that gets thrown away at the CBA negotiating table. I don't claim to know.

 

[BirdDog9048]

By the way, that would really suck to be playing in a D-League making 16k while a draft pick dropped to D-League is making multi millions. I can understand the MLB disparity better since the minimum is 500k or so. 16k is poverty wage, to be guarding a multi-millionaire would make me want to learn to speak Greek and move overseas.

Wait, you think all minor leaguers make at least 500k? Minor league baseball players are among the lowest paid workers (notice workers, not athletes) in the entire country. They often make less than fast food workers.

The only saving grace for a lot of these guys is their signing bonus (quite large for the first few rounds, but diminishes greatly in later rounds), and that they often have host families so they don't have to pay rent.

Anyways, can we get this thread back on track? It is the recruiting thread after all, and not the "bicker with each other about professional sports businesses that we have incomplete knowledge of" thread.

 

[illinibb76]

What I'm hearing is in the very near future look for D-League salaries to jump about 10x what they are now and a lot of the better players that are on the cusp of making a NBA roster will stay in the states and take a chance rather than taking the better money in Europe or China!

 

[Newman]

What I'm hearing is in the very near future look for D-League salaries to jump about 10x what they are now and a lot of the better players that are on the cusp of making a NBA roster will stay in the states and take a chance rather than taking the better money in Europe or China!

This is silly and won't happen anytime in the near future. The players in the D-league are roughly the same caliber of most of the players overseas.. the issue isn't the talent. The market exists overseas because that is their highest level of basketball. Obviously that will never be the case here.

 

[FiveStar]

What I'm hearing is in the very near future look for D-League salaries to jump about 10x what they are now and a lot of the better players that are on the cusp of making a NBA roster will stay in the states and take a chance rather than taking the better money in Europe or China!

That would certainly pull kids away from college basketball. Get on the job training for 150k and move up to 500k at least when you get called up. Sure is better than sitting in class, writing papers, taking tests, and making no money.

 

[Obelix]

Justin Albers ‏@Justin_Albers
Kris Wilkes will not be at Hoosier Hysteria on Saturday because he will be out of town of something unrelated to recruiting, I’m told.

http://twitter.com/Justin_Albers/status/788450093364019201

 

[Deleted member 10676]

Hoosier nerves.
Jerry Meyer ‏@jerrymeyer247 9m9 minutes ago Tremont Waters announcing tomorrow per @nhrJoeMorelli. Indiana leads Kentucky & UConn in #CrystalBall.

 

[midastouch11]

It looks like this guy knows that his car is going to break down in the future. That was the 1% correct?

 

[BirdDog9048]

It looks like this guy knows that his car is going to break down in the future. That was the 1% correct?

Yup. I believe "car breaks down on 465" were his words.

 

[Smacko]

If that's the case, that makes things interesting.

I guess his car broke down?

 

[Smacko]

Yup. I believe "car breaks down on 465" were his words.

Ahh you beat me to it.

 

[Newman]

99% he will be there. The other 1% is for the car to breakdown on 465. Even then he could catch part of it.

I hope this doesn't affect the relationship you have with your insider.

 

[Lord Snow]

I hope this doesn't affect the relationship you have with your insider.

:thumb: