Indiana 80, Illinois 74 POSTGAME

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I may be misinterpreting what you are saying. If we could have really used ANY improvement at backup center over the past 2 weeks (and I agree completely with that assessment) isn't it fair to say that Groce didn't think Finke would be an improvement? I mean if you're a coach struggling to make the tournament and you have a guy on your bench that you think has any chance of improving your team, isn't it your responsibility to play the kid? After all, it's not like he recruited Finke with the agreement that he'd sit year one. That was Groce's call after assessing him. If the assessment changed, I'd like to think our coach was flexible enough to change his plans.
Let's say for argument's sake that MF is marginally better than MM right now. The problem is it would take MF awhile to get his sea legs and adjust to the speed and physicality of the CBB game if he started playing now, even in spot duty (5-10 mpg). As a frosh, the end of January/February/early March would be akin to other frosh adjusting to CBB in November and December, and MF wouldn't get the benefit of getting his feet wet against any cupcakes or mediocre opponents like we faced in November and December. Playing him now would probably not pay off until March, so the marginal benefits would not outweigh the negatives of losing that RS year for a few games of positive performances.
 
Yep, I recall seeing Arch as a frosh make a shot fake at the FT line, then drive and dunk the ball. It took him a while to get there, but the promise was shown early on.
Arch was a stick as a frosh but also was very athletic. MM has improved his body makeup since coming to UI but has never seemed very mobile or athletic. Even now, he's slow afoot and doesn't seem to have the fast-twitch muscles needed to excel at this level, though I hope he proves the skeptics wrong.
 
I don't understand how we can have some guys in the lineup, ala Black,Nunn, and not have them be more involved in the game(with minutes and actually having the ball passed to Nunn). It's amazing how much Nunn did not touch the ball in the 2nd half. Why put Egwu back in the last part of the 1st half??? The momentum was going to the Illnii, but why change when you are winning your game????? Sit Cosby on the bench if he's not on his shot for the game - wouldn't be an insult, just wasn't on his shot for today....
 
I don't understand how we can have some guys in the lineup, ala Black,Nunn, and not have them be more involved in the game(with minutes and actually having the ball passed to Nunn). It's amazing how much Nunn did not touch the ball in the 2nd half.
Don't assume Groce didn't want to get the ball to Nunn. (1) Defense was geared to deny him the ball after that 1st half; (2) we don't have a good PG.
 
any idea why Egwu was put back in the last part of the 1st half???? I know that he's tall, but an almost 7' man with 2 rebounds and 0 points??? that is not a good stat for someone with that size....
 
North Carolina
As for the players Groce brought in, Hill was recruited by Weber and recommitted to Groce in very short order. So for the Groce high school recruits Nunn is the best so far, and Black has potential. Rice has been a wonderful surprise, best player Groce has recruited. Cosby, Starks, Morgan and Colbert have all been disappointments. Tate might make a serviceable backup PG as an upperclassman. Sorry, I just don't see a major talent upgrade. Now the next class may change all of that. Maybe JCL is a real difference maker at this level. Maybe Groce signs Lovett. But for right now, looking at the current team, I don't see a talent upgrade over what Weber was bringing in.
I see a major talent upgrade over Michael Orris, Jalen James, Devin Langford, Ibby, Shaw, etc.
 
I see a major talent upgrade over Michael Orris, Jalen James, Devin Langford, Ibby, Shaw, etc.
I don't see a major upgrade over Egwu, Brandon Paul, Abrams, Leonard, Hill, Mike Davis, etc...

Weber brought in some good players.
 
Golden, IL
I don't understand how we can have some guys in the lineup, ala Black,Nunn, and not have them be more involved in the game(with minutes and actually having the ball passed to Nunn). It's amazing how much Nunn did not touch the ball in the 2nd half. Why put Egwu back in the last part of the 1st half??? The momentum was going to the Illnii, but why change when you are winning your game????? Sit Cosby on the bench if he's not on his shot for the game - wouldn't be an insult, just wasn't on his shot for today....
Cosby barely played in the 2nd half. Not sure what you are complaining about here.
 
Golden, IL
I'm still trying to figure out why Groce didn't play more zone. IMO Indiana didn't look very good against it, in the few times we played it.
Our defense is pretty poor. I think we do better when we are in a zone.
Playing zone for an extended period of time would have been a disaster against Indiana. They are too good a 3-point shooting team for that. It also would have exacerbated the rebounding problems we were already having. Granted, Williams was tearing us apart inside, though. I don't think there really was a good defensive option. We don't match up well with Indiana in the frontcourt.
 
10-8 conference get in the dance, 20+ wins = successful season to me. If we finish at below .500 in conference and don't get in the dance then I have to start putting Groce on the hot seat.
Problem is you HAVE to win the winnable home games. No road game is easy, and there are probably more home games we will lose.
 
I don't see a major upgrade over Egwu, Brandon Paul, Abrams, Leonard, Hill, Mike Davis, etc...

Weber brought in some good players.
I see what you're saying, but what's the point of the argument? You're comparing Groce's first class and the best recruits Weber was able to bring in his entire tenure. And you're saying it as if you know how the ceiling of the 2013 and 2014 classes. Again, what's your point?
 
Don't assume Groce didn't want to get the ball to Nunn. (1) Defense was geared to deny him the ball after that 1st half; (2) we don't have a good PG.
We don't move without the ball too good. Point guard's job gets really difficult if his teammates don't move.
 
I see what you're saying, but what's the point of the argument? You're comparing Groce's first class and the best recruits Weber was able to bring in his entire tenure. And you're saying it as if you know how the ceiling of the 2013 and 2014 classes. Again, what's your point?
Thank you and this is exactly my point. Nevermind the fact that Weber was coming in after the greatest stretch of basketball in Illinois history and off his national championship appearance while Groce is coming off of one of the worst runs in Illinois basketball in the last 30 years including having to completely repair recruiting relationships in some of the most important parts of the state for UI to recruit from.
 
Playing zone for an extended period of time would have been a disaster against Indiana. They are too good a 3-point shooting team for that. It also would have exacerbated the rebounding problems we were already having. Granted, Williams was tearing us apart inside, though. I don't think there really was a good defensive option. We don't match up well with Indiana in the frontcourt.
I think planting Egwu in the paint on defense would have been better than him and hill trying to trap guards on the perimeter, leaving their men wide open under the basket for uncontested dunks. Or running around flapping their arms at 3 pt shooters no where near the three point shooter while their men were getting uncontested dunks.

Points in the paint-IND 28,ILL 22
Offensive rebounds-IND 8, ILL 4
Troy Williams FG 8-10, FT 5-6, 21 points

Was one of Williams' misses the missed dunk?
 
Thank you and this is exactly my point. Nevermind the fact that Weber was coming in after the greatest stretch of basketball in Illinois history and off his national championship appearance while Groce is coming off of one of the worst runs in Illinois basketball in the last 30 years including having to completely repair recruiting relationships in some of the most important parts of the state for UI to recruit from.
Huh? The greatest stretch in Illinois history was probably under Henson, although I will defer to those who may point to some older generations.

Weber came in during successful, but declining success as measured by the NCAA tournament.
 
Huh? The greatest stretch in Illinois history was probably under Henson, although I will defer to those who may point to some older generations.

Weber came in during successful, but declining success as measured by the NCAA tournament.
Yeah, Self left Bubbs a real dumpster fire.
 
I see what you're saying, but what's the point of the argument? You're comparing Groce's first class and the best recruits Weber was able to bring in his entire tenure. And you're saying it as if you know how the ceiling of the 2013 and 2014 classes. Again, what's your point?
By the time a player is a soph, we usually have a pretty good idea of how good they will be.

My point? See the thread I just posted. Groce has recruited some good players. Weber recruited some good players. Both had some positions they struggled to fill. So far, no sign at all that Groce has broken out of the Weber mediocrity.
 
Huh? The greatest stretch in Illinois history was probably under Henson, although I will defer to those who may point to some older generations.

Weber came in during successful, but declining success as measured by the NCAA tournament.
?? Huh? Yes, we didn't go as far for three years in a row. But another way of looking at it was that we advanced every year in the tourney for three years in a row. And Self started three true freshmen, a soph, and a senior his last year.

The greatest stretch in Illinois basketball history was from Kruger to Self to early Weber. Great players, great teams.
 
Greatest stretch might have been back around the Whiz Kids era, actually, but Henson throughout the '80s was awfully good with that Elite 8 team that lost at Kentucky on the no-travel call then the Flyin' Illini, and the Kruger, Weber, Self years were awfully good, too.

Jaylon Tate is a good point guard. No, he doesn't shoot the outside jumper well enough yet, but strictly from a being-able-to-distribute-the-ball viewpoint, he is as good as we have had since DMAC and he is now finishing at the rim. I think he is going to be better than people initially wanted to think.

The thing about Egwu is in yesterday's game because of the smaller lineup, he should have played much less. Indiana played everyone in their lineup on the perimeter throughout the game and Egwu just couldn't keep up and thus the extremely poor stats. I, too, agree they should not have inserted him late in the first half right in the middle of us having a run. He just didn't fit yesterday and when he and Cosby play 45 minutes and got 0-6 with 0 points, less than five rebounds and stupid fouls, one has to question the coach continuing to play him. Morgan may not have looked that great, but he was better than Egwu and he can consistently make that 12 foot jumper. Egwu can't seem to catch or make anything anymore. Offensively he is totally lost right now and that is very strange for a senior who has played so many games.
 
?? Huh? Yes, we didn't go as far for three years in a row. But another way of looking at it was that we advanced every year in the tourney for three years in a row. And Self started three true freshmen, a soph, and a senior his last year.

The greatest stretch in Illinois basketball history was from Kruger to Self to early Weber. Great players, great teams.
Yeah I'm not sure there's any way to debate that the early 2000's through the national championship were the golden age of Illinois basketball.
 
Thank you and this is exactly my point. Nevermind the fact that Weber was coming in after the greatest stretch of basketball in Illinois history and off his national championship appearance while Groce is coming off of one of the worst runs in Illinois basketball in the last 30 years including having to completely repair recruiting relationships in some of the most important parts of the state for UI to recruit from.
When Weber was recruiting Leonard, Richmond, Brandon Paul, etc... he was coming off some down years and was getting hammered in the media.

And actually, Jerrance had repaired relationships in Chicago before Groce took over. Without a doubt, Weber let the program sink to mediocrity, but it wasn't in the basement by any stretch of the imagination.
 
When Weber was recruiting Leonard, Richmond, Brandon Paul, etc... he was coming off some down years and was getting hammered in the media.

And actually, Jerrance had repaired relationships in Chicago before Groce took over. Without a doubt, Weber let the program sink to mediocrity, but it wasn't in the basement by any stretch of the imagination.
I'm not trying to suggest it was in the basement but compared to where it was when he took over it was standing at the top of the steps to the basement.

Jerrance hadn't done too well in Chicago from what it sounds like.
 
Jaylon Tate is a good point guard. No, he doesn't shoot the outside jumper well enough yet, but strictly from a being-able-to-distribute-the-ball viewpoint, he is as good as we have had since DMAC and he is now finishing at the rim. I think he is going to be better than people initially wanted to think.
A PG who isn't real big, isn't real quick, isn't a great defender and can't hit the broad side of the barn isn't going to be a good college PG even if he can distribute the ball. If Tate brought the toughness, defense and rebounding of a guy like Chester Frazier, then you could live with the shooting problem. But as is...

For comparison, Frazier hit 0.156 and 0.321 from the arc his first two seasons. Tate has hit 0.043 and 0.111. That is really dismal, even compared to a poor shooter like Frazier.
 
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