John Groce at Illinois

[HeartofaChampion]

A few observations from a UI fan since the Dave Downey days ('bout 50 years ago -- yes, I'm old):

* JG has to be given a pass for this season as long as the team doesn't implode -- finish at the bottom of the B1G, 5-13, 4-14 -- and shows signs of improvement and consistent TNT effort and cohesiveness till season's end. With even MT and LB healthy (DP doesn't count -- JG took a big gamble and lost there), we're a likely tournament team.

* JG has to get the team back into the tournament not only next year but for the foreseeable future to retain his job long term here. UI cannot settle for occasionally making the Dance. The new AD needs to set the bar high again and expect the program to be a perennial tournament team again starting in 2016-17. If MT and LB are back next year, we'll have more than enough talent and experience to return to the tournament. 2018 would then be JG's ultimate test if this happens. (I don't have much hope for TA next year. He'll hopefully be back, but as a backup after 2 full seasons of not playing and coming off 2 major surgeries.) Making the Dance every other year or less should not cut it. If JG survives this year and misses the Dance next year, he's gone. If he survives this year, gets us to the Dance in 2017 and misses the Dance in 2018, he's gone. High expectations need to be in order again, especially after the renovation of the AH. UI can and should return to 2000s and 1980s form in the very near future. Do not settle for mediocrity. 2016 should be the last season we don't make the Dance for at least a few years, if not longer. Even BW got us to the Dance nearly every year for about a decade.

* I've talked to JG through a donor relative 3 or 4 times. He seems like a fantastic person. Whether he becomes a fantastic coach someday is anyone's guess. Like many fans, as a former HS coach I admittedly am not enamored with his results so far. His recruiting at the 1 and 5 spots has been a major disappointment, and I personally don't think the offensive system he's used the last 3 1/2 years is very creative. Beilein is an example of a creative offensive coach. Izzo, too. The dribble drive with some nuances this season is OK but really requires 2 strong playmakers off the dribble, and we've had none that fit that description in 3 1/2 years. Defensively his packline is a good scheme with decent results in 2013 and '14 and less impressive results the last year and a half.

* JG also seems like a fighter. He won't quit on this team or the program, which I like. He'll need to be; I'd guesstimate that his chances of being here long term are about 25%.

* JG has to hit a home run with the 2017 class. Unfortunately, a sub-.500 season this year won't help him achieve this goal.

* Adding Dee to the staff seems like a no-brainer. Probably means Parham is gone.

* Ultimately, I'm skeptical that JG will be here long term. His recruiting at the 1 and 5 have been the main culprit. But, barring a meltdown this B1G season, he deserves a shot at continuing to coach next year, and I still hold out a glimmer of hope.

 

[WesterveltVictoryCigar]

Agree with all of that HoC. Groce hasn't done much to make me think he's the guy that I want in charge, but I think he does deserve another year to prove himself.

 

[illinisc]

Agree with all of that HoC. Groce hasn't done much to make me think he's the guy that I want in charge, but I think he does deserve another year to prove himself.

Why? This year he's lost a large part of his roster but the previous two years and his overall recruiting hasn't shown well enough to compete at a high level. Also he'll be a lame duck coach with only 2 years left on this contract. If folks were so upset about extending Cubit then why create the same situation for our basketball program.

The only way he should get another year is if he suddenly lands a very good 2017 class and he makes changes to his staff. Otherwise it's best to make a change before this turns

 

[WesterveltVictoryCigar]

Why? This year he's lost a large part of his roster but the previous two years and his overall recruiting hasn't shown well enough to compete at a high level. Also he'll be a lame duck coach with only 2 years left on this contract. If folks were so upset about extending Cubit then why create the same situation for our basketball program.

The only way he should get another year is if he suddenly lands a very good 2017 class and he makes changes to his staff. Otherwise it's best to make a change before this turns

I've bolded the answer to your "why" to go along with what looks to be a nice freshman group with Finke, JCL, Jordan and DJW. And I have already posted previously that a good 2017 class is also very important for him (and the program).

Also for the record I'd be fine with replacing him after this year if we could get a top coach to come on board. But as you noted, our administration is not one to provide that kind of hope. Also, a hoops coach with a 2 year deal is not comparable to one in football, apples/oranges.

 

[HeartofaChampion]

I've bolded the answer to your "why" to go along with what looks to be a nice freshman group with Finke, JCL, Jordan and DJW. And I have already posted previously that a good 2017 class is also very important for him (and the program).

Also for the record I'd be fine with replacing him after this year if we could get a top coach to come on board. But as you noted, our administration is not one to provide that kind of hope. Also, a hoops coach with a 2 year deal is not comparable to one in football, apples/oranges.

Both these paragraphs sum up my feelings toward JG. I don't think there's a coach in the country who could take this injury-plagued roster to the Dance, and JG has assembled a nice frosh class, especially if you consider Nichols a member of the group, too, though I guess he'll be considered a frosh next year, actually. And I think a lot of fans, myself included, would be OK with seeing JG replaced in the offseason with a great candidate, but considering we still have interims running the university and DIA, that's unlikely as you said. The last 3 1/2 years have greatly tempered my hopes for JG, I must admit. A lot of lost luster.

I'm also intrigued to finally see a JG team with a quality PG running the show in what is a PG-friendly offense and what a difference it might make in the quality of shots we get, especially with good wings like MH, KN and JCL stretching the D and a low-post scorer like MT in the lineup. Unfortunately we may never get to see this, as next year looks like it'll be more of the same. (I have modest expectations for Lucas as a frosh backing up JT or TA.)

 

[Dan]

^^ copied a couple posts from the Michigan Postgame thread to start this thread.

As posts have been all over the place in just about every thread regarding the Groce Era at Illinois, here's a central thread for the discussion for the remainder of 2015-2016.

Topics include John Groce's time at Illinois, the present situation & speculations about the future.

The pregame, game & postgame threads will now be specifically about those games. If you feel like discussing/venting about the Groce Era during or after a game (posts that are not specifically about that game), please utilize this thread

The recruiting thread will be about recruiting news. Discussions about recruiting as an evaluation of the Groce Era should be made in this thread :thumb:

Thank you, and Go

 

[justsomedude]

I'll just say I'd feel much better about him getting another year if we get a few early commits. I'll be very nervous if we enter the summer with that big of a class and no commitments.

 

[illinois_hustle]

I was a fan of John Groce until I saw his schemes in action. So that's to say not long. His first press conferences were full of energy and vigor, and I absolutely loved that, and that hasn't changed. He seems like a fighter for the team and himself and the school. He seems to understand and value the school's legacy and place in history. All of that is top shelf.

Oh the games though. So so so rough and ugly and non-creative. I remember his first game I was sitting there with a big question mark above my head. He doesn't seem to be able (or willing?) to modify his schemes to fit his personnel, and relies way too much on individual play-making for my taste. I say for my taste because for some teams this is entirely acceptable (Kentucky), so long as you have the horses and correct mix and deep roster to play this style and be successful game after game after game. It hasn't been successful here. His apparent inability to make meaningful adjustments at halftime, and his lack of creativity (for me, passing and creating for others) on offense, and now this season the defense is atrocious .... man it's hard to watch.

And that in a nutshell is why I'm against Groce for the future ... the product on the court is not very much fun to watch. He does seem like a great guy and the energy is fantastic, but facts are stubborn things. Not making the tournament three years in a row? Consistently poor 2nd halves? Sticking with the same unimaginative schemes 4 years in a row while other coaches create around him? I'd like a new direction, but I'm not the AD (who is? lol). He will get another year because of the injuries, and I hope he's humble enough to learn and adjust and grow himself into a better coach. But if not, I'm hoping for a very short leash.

 

[mdonsbach]

SOC here we go.

I wonder how much will determine who the next AD will be. Will it be an AD that wants a clean slate like Thomas. Certainly with the FB, MBB, and WBB coaches I don't think anyone would truly blink an eye at those being let go.

I do have to admit with the Groce Era I feel differently than the end of the Weber Era. With the Weber Era I felt defeated after watching the games and felt no hope. With Groce I always feel that fight coming from him which always gives me hope even though the results have yet to portray that.

To play with hypotheticals, what if it had been Groce that led the 2004-2005 team to the NC game? Where would recruiting be? I wonder if he came into that scenario would we have gotten our big targets. Rather he came into a depth chart that was no where equipped as Weber's was.

We all know it isn't for lack of effort but I do tend to agree that Groce's X's & O's has been less than stellar. I still like the potential better than the MOVE offense of Weber it just hasn't seen the result. Once again how would have the 2004-2005 team worked in the Groce offense?

I feel at the bare minimum some sort of staff change needs to happen. Obviously I'd love to see Dee get that chance but I'd also like to see Deon Thomas. I feel no one can sell the program better than former players...especially players that LOVE the UofI like Dee.

Oh and so far JCL is not our PG unfortunately. I'm trying to figure out how some recruiting services saw him even as a CG let alone a PG. He is as pure of a SG as they come.

 

[jmwillini]

I would love to see Dee as an assistant at some point in the future, but not now unless 2 coaches leave. Coach Groce needs an experienced X's and O's guy.

 

[Illini B-Ball Fan]

Having to vent about Illini basketball and specifically the head coach is unfortunate, but sometimes is needed only if done fairly. What's the answer to future of CJG and this era? Who knows, I guess we'll find out. I hope the best in the future for our coach, this team, our recruiting efforts, and for a winning season. What's really unfortunate (and sad) is that Mr and Mrs Lucas and Mr and Mrs Nichols (along with their sons) have access to this forum and are able to view any denigrating comments.

 

[alaskaillini]

I hope that any recruits that read this understand that Illinois has a tradition of winning basketball. I also hope they understand that it is human nature to want to blame someone for the program not living up to that tradition. And as HC, John Groce is the obvious focal point for that blame, deserved or not.
It may not be fair, but the biggest criticism I think can be made of John Groce is that he is unlucky. Being lucky can cover a lot of deficiencies, but being unlucky exposes and exaggerates those deficiencies.
I like John Groce and think he has the personal characteristics of a good coach, but unless his luck changes he is never going to have a fair opportunity to prove his true worth.

 

[Obelix]

I would love to see Dee as an assistant at some point in the future, but not now unless 2 coaches leave. Coach Groce needs an experienced X's and O's guy.

You need to get the players/talent at key positions, especially the ones that remain major gaps. The premise that you can hire an X's and O's assistant and see good results given the same talent gaps is wrong IMO. Our recruiting at key positions has been sub-par.

 

[lstewart53x3]

You need to get the players/talent at key positions, especially the ones that remain major gaps. The premise that you can hire an X's and O's assistant and see good results given the same talent gaps is wrong IMO. Our recruiting at key positions has been sub-par.

This. Put a top 50 PG and C on this team and the schemes look a lot better.

 

[Butkuser]

Just some basic general praise for the thoughts expressed in this thread, and thanks Dan, for separating this topic, while also recognizing that it merits continued dialogue.

I think HoC's comments (I am older too) are well expressed. I think we would all like to see a coach settle into a long term position with sustained success. I think JG must find X's and O's help as a priority. Dee would be a fantastic recruiting tool, but I don't know if that's more dire than creating plays.

I agree that JG will survive this season, regardless, but I think he needs to both make the dance next year and have a good '17 class to remain. Failure on either fronts will be enough reason to part ways.

I still hope he turns things around, but my hope is tepid at best.

 

[Butkuser]

You need to get the players/talent at key positions, especially the ones that remain major gaps. The premise that you can hire an X's and O's assistant and see good results given the same talent gaps is wrong IMO. Our recruiting at key positions has been sub-par.

I see your point, even though I think he needs help in that department. What are anyone's opinions of how the staff are doing developing players? I know it's too early to tell with many of them, but does JG need a better staff?

Of course, I would love, like many others, to see Dee and Deon on staff. Then I would like us to play Auburn, and beat Pearl by 50.

 

[illinisc]

I've bolded the answer to your "why" to go along with what looks to be a nice freshman group with Finke, JCL, Jordan and DJW. And I have already posted previously that a good 2017 class is also very important for him (and the program).

Also for the record I'd be fine with replacing him after this year if we could get a top coach to come on board. But as you noted, our administration is not one to provide that kind of hope. Also, a hoops coach with a 2 year deal is not comparable to one in football, apples/oranges.

I'd like to know why you think having only 2 years left on a contract is different for football and basketball. Basketball recruits care just as much about knowing that they'll have four years with the coach that recruited them. Also I'm talking about JGs overall body of work and not just this year.

 

[217sports]

If he does get another year then he better change assistant coaches (prefer two of them out starting with PP)

 

[Obelix]

I see your point, even though I think he needs help in that department.

I'm not saying that he does not need help in that department, just setting priorities. Being a very good recruiter is a necessary condition at UI, although not sufficient.

I think Groce's future at Illinois greatly depends on getting talent/players in a balanced way without key gaps for multiple years. I actually believe the same for all Illini basketball coaches, so not unique to Groce. I just do not agree with the premise that you can consistently outcoach or outdevelop in the B1G by finding diamonds in the rough. Some players will overachieve while others will underachieve, that is expected. But on the average you need talent.

I'd love to add Dee. He has the right personality, he will one day become a home run recruiter IMO but not because he was an Illini great. And I know Deon personally and he is one of my all-time favorite players. But I am not sure that Deon has the right personality (or Powell for that matter) to become as good recruiters as Dee. JMO.

 

[Butkuser]

Deon has done some coaching right? Is there any evidence he can develop bigs? If we could add Dee to help with recruiting and with the guards, assuming he has some coaching ability, and if Deon can help with bigs, It would be great.

Pie in the sky, I know.

 

[high34]

John Groce needs to be fired at the end of the season based on the loosing culture that has been allowed within the program since the Mid-Bruce Weber era. Groce has failed to stop the culture from spreading and now has fans debating if Groce should be retained if they finished 4-14 in the Big Ten. After the last three years I just see a downward trend continuing with no end in site.

The reason why this culture has developed is due to the previous coaching staff and this current staff to find and develop players that are not rated 4 or 5 star. Groce's biggest failure was going after the 5 start talent when he was hired rather then finding bulldog competitors that a program could be built around. He has no foundation currently and I see no change to that dynamic coming.

First post I know, but you gotta start somewhere. Go Illni!

 

[UofIChE06]

Really think the most logical decision here is to replace Parham with Dee. Parham is not one of the guys Groce brought with him so there is less loyalty there. He is the designated "Chicago" guy but I cannot imagine the powers up there being upset with Dee replacing him. You have to think with his charisma and legend status Dee would be able to form plenty of solid relationships in Chicago.

I think Ford is overrated. He is Groce's right hand man and I think there in lies the biggest problem. I really don't think he is capable of being the main guy. He does have a good coaching pedigree but I just don't think he has the it factor. To be honest I am not high on any of the assistants. I think Groce does the lion's share of the work. More so than his counterparts at other schools. I think the addition of Dee would free up time for Groce to focus on things other than maintaining relationships. It would allow him to be the closer on recruiting like most other major coaches.

 

[Deleted member 4960]

I love Dee Brown, but why do people think he will make a difference in recruiting? The kids that watched the 2005 team have long since graduated. He has no experience in coaching or recruiting. He played a handful of minutes in the NBA. I just don't think he will resonate as well as people believe with today's recruits. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Soxfreak64]

I love Dee Brown, but why do people think he will make a difference in recruiting? The kids that watched the 2005 team have long since graduated. He has no experience in coaching or recruiting. He played a handful of minutes in the NBA. I just don't think he will resonate as well as people believe with today's recruits. I hope I'm wrong.

If you've ever met Dee, you understand. He is young, has a Top-notch college pedigree, time in the league, and, most importantly, unmatched enthusiasm and charisma.

If Dee was in Sales, he'd be raking it in. Guy is one of a kind.

 

[mdonsbach]

I love Dee Brown, but why do people think he will make a difference in recruiting? The kids that watched the 2005 team have long since graduated. He has no experience in coaching or recruiting. He played a handful of minutes in the NBA. I just don't think he will resonate as well as people believe with today's recruits. I hope I'm wrong.

Infectious