John Groce at Illinois

[Illini2018]

16 scheduled games against projected ncaa tourney teams this year. Assuming no miracles against Indiana and Maryland, we'll have won 3 out of those 16. Those wins will have been over Purdue, Yale, UAB. We should be an NCAA tournament team every year regardless of injuries or suspensions or whatever and now are 3-13. Now we are just a punching bag for actual good teams.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

Which, I believe, was the exact same argument for hiring Bill Cubit to a two-year deal over trying to hire a completely new coach.

That argument was true there too, though maybe leavened somewhat by Kowalczyk being an experienced D1 AD who had been with the DIA for a couple of years. It was just totally overwhelmed by other factors in that case.

If John Groce had resigned in November and we were wondering whether Dustin Ford was doing enough to keep the job, there would be absolutely no question that Whitman has to make the move right now. Different situations are different.

 

[UrbanaIsTheShiz]

WWMTD?

Not that it matters at all, but I wonder what the discussion would look like if Thomas was still the AD.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

WWMTD?

Not that it matters at all, but I wonder what the discussion would look like if Thomas was still the AD.

Thomas stood by his guy Mick Cronin through four tourney-less years after Huggins made it 14 years in a row. I betcha Thomas would have stood firm.

 

[EJ33]

Thomas stood by his guy Mick Cronin through four tourney-less years after Huggins made it 14 years in a row. I betcha Thomas would have stood firm.

I betcha you are 100% right on this.

Whitman will almost certainly stand firm too. I think it's the right call even though I no longer think Groce is the right guy. Groce stays next year and keeps his job if he does one of these things:

- makes the NCAA tournament

- lands an outstanding recruiting class (FWIW, I don't think a class of Williams, Goodwin, and Pickett is enough - he needs Tilmon)

 

[MoIlliniMoProblems]

That argument was true there too, though maybe leavened somewhat by Kowalczyk being an experienced D1 AD who had been with the DIA for a couple of years. It was just totally overwhelmed by other factors in that case.

If John Groce had resigned in November and we were wondering whether Dustin Ford was doing enough to keep the job, there would be absolutely no question that Whitman has to make the move right now. Different situations are different.

Of course they are different situations. But the apathy/anger towards each program is very much the same.

I don't believe anyone thought back on November 28th keeping Bill Cubit around is going to build positive momentum and excite fans about the program.

I'm not sure what about John Groce's resume or results makes anyone think he can build positive momentum either.

Finally, I'm not sure Josh Whitman, or anyone in the university, can afford another 10-13 months of apathy.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

the apathy/anger towards each program is very much the same.

I humbly disagree.

 

[ole 99]

WWMTD?

Not that it matters at all, but I wonder what the discussion would look like if Thomas was still the AD.

He would have stood by Groce because there's no way he would have kept his job if both of his big hires failed.

 

[TCTORNADO]

Can't wait for the 100's of posting rumors to begin after tonight's University Club reception for JW in Chicago.

 

[Oskee67]

Here are some of my concerns:

1. Off-the-court/culture issues
2. Recruiting stagnating
3. Poor offensive execution

1. As has been discussed, these player issues are mounting and that does not help Groce's situation in any way. These are all his guys. On the other hand, the players healthy and playing have not rolled over under an incredible amount of adversity and pressure on them. They clearly still care and respond to their coach. That says a lot, as well.

2. Though we can still bring in our share of top 100 players, our misses at pg and c are glaring. 1 pg decommit at the last minute to Louisville may have started this vicious cycle, but it must end in 2017.

3. Our defense/lack of TOs keeps us in games, and we can usually hang our hat on that. However, the fact still remains we have 1 B1G game with a shooting percentage of at least 50%. Maybe it would be different with different talent/healthy talent, but our offensive struggles are bringing down the ship.
It cannot be overlooked, though, that our preseason lineup was: Abrams/Tate, Nunn/JCL/AJ, Hill/JCL/AJ/DJW, Black/Paul/Finke/DJW, MT/MM. We have 3 players out of position currently, and relying a LOT on freshman (1 or 2 of whom may have been good RS candidates) and a grad pg transfer.

I am a Groce supporter and believe he has the coaching ability, passion, and pride to be successful over the long haul. Let's not forget what he had to start with after bp3 and dj graduated. Bertrand, Abrams, Shaw, Henry, Langford, Ibby, Rice, and Egwu. There was no junior or frosh class when he started in 12-13, and Shaw, Henry, Langford, and Ibby were all gone soon after! 2-3 more wins in the last two seasons and this thread would probably not exist. If we are healthy, and if hill and nunn are back with a decent class, we're dancing next year.

 

[TheBucket]

Can't wait for the 100's of posting rumors to begin after tonight's University Club reception for JW in Chicago.

Why? Big donors in attendance?

 

[JoseyWales83]

Why? Big donors in attendance?

It's a richie rich club. I got invited for a New Years Day party there and the inside of the place with the people felt like they came out of the movie Trading Places. I was looking for Dan Aykroyd's character all night. Josh will have to make a good impression with them to help get some money for projects thats for sure.

 

[Hands Malone]

Like it or not it could be successfully argued that the Groce era has put the basketball program in more disarray than the previous coach. Add to that revenue has also dwindled. So contract buy out talk should also include continually dwindling dollars if Groce stays and nothing else changes in the wins column.

I hate having to look to 2017 reboot. You look at 2016 and have to wonder, will TA be back or will another injury pop up. Can Groce or a new coach bring in some juco or 5th year players to contribute. Will there be a proactive movement toward player conduct or reactive moves like we are now seeing. Will this coaching staff be selective when it comes to character or will that be on a sliding scale depending on talent.(Don't get me wrong, I feel the majority of the kids on this team are of strong character.)

It's really time to make a definitive move or next year this board will be banking on 2018 recruits.

 

[Foggy Notion]

It's a richie rich club. I got invited for a New Years Day party there and the inside of the place with the people felt like they came out of the movie Trading Places. I was looking for Dan Aykroyd's character all night. Josh will have to make a good impression with them to help get some money for projects thats for sure.

 

[ColorMeBad]

I betcha you are 100% right on this.

Whitman will almost certainly stand firm too. I think it's the right call even though I no longer think Groce is the right guy. Groce stays next year and keeps his job if he does one of these things:

- makes the NCAA tournament

- lands an outstanding recruiting class (FWIW, I don't think a class of Williams, Goodwin, and Pickett is enough - he needs Tilmon)

I can't imagine him being back even with that class if he misses the tourney. He really needs the tourney and a top 15 class. If he misses again, he better have a top 3 class in the country.

 

[drwillini]

I think we can see at positive trajectory, finally. ADJW was a fine hire. He is a future Rick George or Jim Phillips, and we finally hired one rather than let somebody else give them a break and then try to low ball them back by appealing to their loyalty. Finally. And despite all the inept planning, the timing is not horrible here. Cubit clearly has next year to prove his worth. I think it is coming down to Groce next year proving the same thing. This year ADJW settles in, smoozes the base to see what kind of buyout we can foot, and still hire a top drawer coach, see if we can do two at a time or must concentrate on one, and as somebody said earlier, practices on Women's hoops. I know I am in a minority here, but I liked the Cubit deal when it happened, and now I really like it giving ADJW a year to sort things out. He will never be the final long term answer for us, but the longer he lasts, the better decision ADJW will make with his successor.

Groce is another question. If he is not the long term answer, he should be gone because short term we are moving in the wrong direction. ADJW needs to give Groce the Zook treatment. Shake up the staff. Coach Groce clearly has some positive personal qualities, but the staff does not make up for his shortcomings, and they have not figured out how to recruit at Illinois. If Groce is going to be the long term answer, he needs to learn from his mistakes and change what he is doing. The great ones do this. Coach K and Nick Saban are two that come to mind that remake themselves.

Watching the Purdue/IU game this weekend, made be want to decapitate my Bruce Weber bobble head. How in the world, this team that has struggled for an inside presence for decades did not offer a legacy that is a legit BIG old fashioned post player just makes me want to puke. If we had Bielfeldt this year it would be at least 4-5 more wins. And Groce is no better with his continued Paul McCartney recruiting strategy. Good Golly.

 

[GreenwoodAve]

I assume articles like this will continue to pop up as the season nears an end.

http://chicago.suntimes.com/?p=1348582

 

[geneseo]

Like it or not it could be successfully argued that the Groce era has put the basketball program in more disarray than the previous coach. Add to that revenue has also dwindled. So contract buy out talk should also include continually dwindling dollars if Groce stays and nothing else changes in the wins column.

I hate having to look to 2017 reboot. You look at 2016 and have to wonder, will TA be back or will another injury pop up. Can Groce or a new coach bring in some juco or 5th year players to contribute. Will there be a proactive movement toward player conduct or reactive moves like we are now seeing. Will this coaching staff be selective when it comes to character or will that be on a sliding scale depending on talent.(Don't get me wrong, I feel the majority of the kids on this team are of strong character.)

It's really time to make a definitive move or next year this board will be banking on 2018 recruits.

You make some good points.

I listened to Alex Roux on some podcast. He referred to the large number of transfers as a "revolving door" and thought that it hurt the team culture, bonding, whatever. I listened to Whitman talk about his experience as a student athlete and the value he put on providing the student athlete an opportunity for a degree. I wonder if his and Groce's philosophy match up. Groce has sent a lot of players packing for whatever reason, without a degree.

 

[temperedexpectations]

I assume articles like this will continue to pop up as the season nears an end.

http://chicago.suntimes.com/?p=1348582

People still read the newspaper? Not to mention if they do read the newspaper i doubt they're wasting their time on a Greenberg article, unless they're 50+ years old.

 

[bleedsorangenblue]

Another Geenberg hack job ..... No surprise there. :hand:

 

[GreenwoodAve]

I don't disagree with all of it, but the first 2 years of Groce we got better as the season went on. He just seems to think of stuff that comes to mind without thinking it through. Mention buyouts and the time frame and etc. Its not as simple as just being ready to move on.

 

[Ransom Stoddard]

People still read the newspaper? Not to mention if they do read the newspaper i doubt they're wasting their time on a Greenberg article, unless they're 50+ years old.

That group (which I count myself among) has the largest concentration of high-dollar donors. So yes, the article matters.

 

[TCTORNADO]

Another Geenberg hack job ..... No surprise there. :hand:

Our media coverage stinks, but I guess that comes with our athletic program perception.

 

[Jreed322]

You make some good points.

I listened to Alex Roux on some podcast. He referred to the large number of transfers as a "revolving door" and thought that it hurt the team culture, bonding, whatever. I listened to Whitman talk about his experience as a student athlete and the value he put on providing the student athlete an opportunity for a degree. I wonder if his and Groce's philosophy match up. Groce has sent a lot of players packing for whatever reason, without a degree.

Groce sent players packing after his first year on the job who weren't going to provide anything. That common at every school with a new coach. It's not like Groce is creaning guys left and right.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

Groce sent players packing after his first year on the job who weren't going to provide anything. That common at every school with a new coach. It's not like Groce is creaming guys left and right.

Colbert too. And the Creanings have been limited by Groce's failure to land players that would have resulted in oversigning.

Not to mention being so reliant on one-and-done grad transfers.

I don't think the roster instability has been healthy.