Purdue 63, Illinois 58 POSTGAME

Chicago, IL
It's not one game. We were without those guys for multiple games and worked our way into the NCAA tournament discussion. Your "excuse" holds no water.

Ok... you definitely dont understand how this all works. With those players, we are probably top 5 in the conference and are already firmly in the NCAA tournament. Without them we are where we are now. We lost games we should never have lost because of our lack of depth. Sure we won games that were tough and good for us because it shows the talent we have, but doesnt mean we wouldnt be even better without the loss of important players.

Also your word excuse is a massive misrepresentation of my point. Im not making an excuse about this season. Im simply pointing out that to compare our preseason goals with Abrams, Paul, fully healthy Rice and a semi decent Cosby is very different from the situation we faced. If you were to tell me where we would be if I knew about those problems I probably would have said borderline bubble team that will be fighting until the end as compared to top 5 team in the conference. Its not an excuse, its just the scenario. This has nothing to do with Groce, its a big picture view of the team and our season.
 
But one of my biggest complaints about Groce is that he has aimed too high with PG recruiting. I wish we would stop targeting McDAA point guards (Evans, Brunson, Jackson) until we can land a couple high 3-star, low 4-star PGs. We DESPERATELY need guys who WILL be good as juniors and seniors, even if they aren't contributing much before that.

So pretty much, exactly what we have right now and we are not happy about.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/al/basketball/recruiting/player-Jaylon-Tate-119304

http://sports.yahoo.com/usc/basketball/recruiting/player-Ahmad-Starks-83480

http://sports.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/basketball/recruiting/player-Tracy-Abrams-85836
 
If the program hadn't collapsed before his arrival he'd be fired after this season. That mess he inherited is what buys him next year at least.


Right. A total rebuild deserves a 4 year leash--we'll know most everything we need to know by the end of next year.
 
yes Groce inherited a mess and he dwarves credit where credit is due. he somehow got b Paul and co to the NCAas where they were two plays or so away from the sweet 16. he somehow stitched together a capable if not rockstar studded roster with mostly talented motivated guys. rice, mclaurin, nunn, hill, black, and even Tate and Starks are all tail busters with talent. Cosby and Ekey last year were busts IMO but overall solid people have joined the team. with such a team, in a power conference you have to be able to win some road games and beat the teams you are markedly better than. Oregon was horrible when we played them. same with michigan, Nebraska and Purdue was horrible last night. last year we lost to Georgia Tech, Purdue, Northwestwrn and IU teams that finished below us in the bug ten and a mediocre Clemson team. We finish first halves and second halves extremely poorly. The past two years we don't know what to do with a 5-7 point lead. In close games we regularly cannot get a stop. I see a team with enough talent and energy to have made the tourney last year and this year, that has left the door open for too many poor and middling teams, that routinely gets the doors blown off coming out of halftime, that has little offensive organization, and that has not been able to figure out how to get the stops and get thejob done enough times when push comes to shove against beatable teams. to me that's on groce. he had to get better at the coaching if we are going to stop losing to crap teams.
 
Belleville
Kenpom ratings by year under Groce:

2013 39
2014 49
2015 53

So "inheriting a mess" is now defined as a team rated 39th nationally and 6 top 100 recruits from Illinois?

(Plus having recruited MH, who is being called the most improved player in the B10?)

The team that was the "mess" has done the best of any Groce teams.

Dave
 
He inherited a team ranked 82 by Kenpom--that lost a lottery pick. He took that team--added Sam & improved their ranking by 43 spots.

When that senior class graduated this is what was in the cupboard:
Joseph Bertrand
Mike LaTulip
Tracy Abrams
Mike Shaw
Myke Henry
Devin Langford
Ibby Djimde
Nnanna Egwu
And you could add:
Malcolm Hill, James & Orris.

Call it what you want--but I don't think any sane person can call it a strong foundation.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Boise, Idaho
(No I'm not comparing JG to Coach K, but looking at K's first three seasons at Duke):
17-13
11-17
10-17
But he was building toward something great.
My hope is JG is building toward something very good that we all will enjoy.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Kenpom ratings by year under Groce:

2013 39
2014 49
2015 53

So "inheriting a mess" is now defined as a team rated 39th nationally and 6 top 100 recruits from Illinois?

(Plus having recruited MH, who is being called the most improved player in the B10?)

The team that was the "mess" has done the best of any Groce teams.

Dave

Wow, this is just an awful post full of misleading and just incorrect information.
 
(No I'm not comparing JG to Coach K, but looking at K's first three seasons at Duke):
17-13
11-17
10-17
But he was building toward something great.
My hope is JG is building toward something very good that we all will enjoy.

Coach K's 3rd year '82-'83, had what many considered the best recruiting class ever @ Duke--Dawkins, Henderson, Bilas, Alarie, and W. Williams. Dawkin's is often considered the cornerstone of Duke's success.
Just maybe Groce's '015 class will just be that "Duke '82/'83 class @ Illinois.
Interestingly, 3 years before K got to Duke they were in the NC game against UK. They lost but were NC runner-ups, sound familiar.
 
Geneseo, IL
I agree but that wasn't the context of the discussion. Also, those past experiences can and should shape people's thoughts about "great things" happening at illinois going forward.

As I said previously #RebuildLife.

I don't think so. Just because he had some "good things" happen at Ohio doesn't mean "good things" are going to happen at Illinois. That's only if you think the path to success is the same at both places which it is not.
 
I don't think so. Just because he had some "good things" happen at Ohio doesn't mean "good things" are going to happen at Illinois. That's only if you think the path to success is the same at both places which it is not.

I didn't say it guarantees he will be successful here at all. However, the fact that he had success, including great success in conference/NCAA tourneys, should provide fans with hope that he actually knows what he's doing.
 
He inherited a team ranked 82 by Kenpom--that lost a lottery pick. He took that team--added Sam & improved their ranking by 43 spots.

When that senior class graduated this is what was in the cupboard:
Joseph Bertrand
Mike LaTulip
Tracy Abrams
Mike Shaw
Myke Henry
Devin Langford
Ibby Djimde
Nnanna Egwu
And you could add:
Malcolm Hill, James & Orris.

Call it what you want--but I don't think any sane person can call it a strong foundation.

Did anyone claim it was a strong foundation? Or are you just throwing that out there in case someone in the future makes that claim?

And Kenpom at the end of the season? Really? After a 16-6 team went on a historic swoon you think that accurately represented the talent level of that team?
 
Abrams and Starks are only PG's in the sense that they're short.

We are talking about the time of recruitment. College game does indeed expose a lot of player deficiencies. But I may have missed your post about Abrams not being a PG when he was recruited out of HS.
 
We are talking about the time of recruitment. College game does indeed expose a lot of player deficiencies. But I may have missed your post about Abrams not being a PG when he was recruited out of HS.

It was well known that he was not a PG at that time. It was reported widely that he didn't even play PG.
 
It was well known that he was not a PG at that time. It was reported widely that he didn't even play PG.

All that may be true, and he hasn't developed into a true PG either, but the only position he has ever played in college has been PG. He has been a starter at PG in his first 3 years of college at Illinois; in my opinion, he is a PG.
 
All that may be true, and he hasn't developed into a true PG either, but the only position he has ever played in college has been PG. He has been a starter at PG in his first 3 years of college at Illinois; in my opinion, he is a PG.

With that being said, I'd love to have an upgrade in talent and pure point guard ability, but you could do much worse than Tracy Abrams being your starting PG....(Tate, Starks)
:shield:
 
All that may be true, and he hasn't developed into a true PG either, but the only position he has ever played in college has been PG. He has been a starter at PG in his first 3 years of college at Illinois; in my opinion, he is a PG.

Lots of people thought he was a PG then and think that now. The point is, he's not a very good PG. Anyone can play PG and call themselves a PG. But being able to elevate the play of others, manage the tempo of the game, stop opposing PG's, be a threat to score when needed especially with the clock expiring, handle the ball under pressure. Those are all requisite skills for a good PG. He has some of them (thus the 1/2 a PG comment) but he doesn't make players around him significantly better by putting the ball in their hands at just the right moment in just the right place. Tate does that, but lacks a lot of the other items on the list.
 
It was well known that he was not a PG at that time. It was reported widely that he didn't even play PG.

Again, I may have missed your post complaining that Abrams was not a PG when he was recruited. You were still a poster back then right?

It is very easy to say post-recruitment that Groce should not recruit Brunson or Evans, two 5-star PGs we went down to the wire but lost, and he should have recruited the 3-star PG who 3-4 years later has proven to be a diamond in the rough (VanVleet is a typical example).

But let's make those comments (with names) during the time of recruitment.
 
Again, I may have missed your post complaining that Abrams was not a PG when he was recruited. You were still a poster back then right?

It is very easy to say post-recruitment that Groce should not recruit Brunson or Evans, two 5-star PGs we went down to the wire but lost, and he should have recruited the 3-star PG who 3-4 years later has proven to be a diamond in the rough (VanVleet is a typical example).

But let's make those comments (with names) during the time of recruitment.

I had never seen Tracy play. You wanted me to announce my thoughts on his PG ability without having seen him?

Again, it was widely reported that he did not play PG primarily in HS. Here's Klee at the time
"So although point guard isn't his natural position, it's hardly a foreign one. And if his exact position is unclear, one thing's not: Abrams is a player. "

I have consistently said that PG's are born not made. If you are not playing PG on your HS team it is unlikely that you will become a great college PG. Not impossible but highly unlikely and if a coach is relying on that transformation, he will often be disappointed.

I have consistently said that the idea of calling someone a CG is just a polite way of saying they are a SG that is too short to be a SG in the NBA so he gets labelled a CG. The idea of converting an AJ or JCL to play the 1 is only worthwhile if you don't have an actual PG on the roster.

There are no great PG's in this recruiting class just in case you want a quote from me in 4 years about why I didn't point out their lack of PG abilities at the college level.
 
Scottsdale, AZ
I had never seen Tracy play. You wanted me to announce my thoughts on his PG ability without having seen him?

Again, it was widely reported that he did not play PG primarily in HS. Here's Klee at the time

I have consistently said that PG's are born not made. If you are not playing PG on your HS team it is unlikely that you will become a great college PG. Not impossible but highly unlikely and if a coach is relying on that transformation, he will often be disappointed.

I have consistently said that the idea of calling someone a CG is just a polite way of saying they are a SG that is too short to be a SG in the NBA so he gets labelled a CG. The idea of converting an AJ or JCL to play the 1 is only worthwhile if you don't have an actual PG on the roster.

There are no great PG's in this recruiting class just in case you want a quote from me in 4 years about why I didn't point out their lack of PG abilities at the college level.

I'm in complete agreement with your last 3 paragraphs. PG is not something you convert to. You either are, or you aren't.
 
I had never seen Tracy play. You wanted me to announce my thoughts on his PG ability without having seen him?

No I don't want you to do that, but at the same time don't come tell me not to recruit Brunson, Evans, DJax in favor of some 3-star PG without knowing who that would be. There is a reason that a PG is rated as a 3-star (e.g. Tate).

I have absolutely no problem with Groce going after Brunson, Evans, D Jax, three PGs that we ended up as runner ups. Eventually, I think Groce's success at the position will depend on getting a B1G quality PG, who will most likely be a highly ranked player (5 star or 4 star). It is OK to say recruit 3-star PGs as backup plans but at the same time there are no infinite scholarships. For example (before AC left), who do you not want to recruit (from our commits) in favor of a lower ranked PG? Tough decision. And they would be better than Tate?

I do not disagree on PG skills. I have mentioned many times that in my experience, ballhandling and PG skills are the hardest to develop. You have either developed those before HS or not. But I did see a little of Abrams and thought he would be better as a PG, contrary to what I had posted when we recruited Luther and DJ.
 
Did anyone claim it was a strong foundation? Or are you just throwing that out there in case someone in the future makes that claim?

And Kenpom at the end of the season? Really? After a 16-6 team went on a historic swoon you think that accurately represented the talent level of that team?

Yes, someone did (and listed Groce's 1st 3 years of Kenpom #'s) & I thought it was ridiculous to argue that Weber left a strong foundation. Though the post has disappeared. :confused:

But yes, I'd say on the court results are the best representation of the talent level of a team. I think a team is what they do on the court--.

In the end I think we (and most fans) probably agree on the appropriate outcome--Groce will get another year and should be seriously evaluated/maybe fired if he has another poor year. Right?
 
I do not disagree on PG skills. I have mentioned many times that in my experience, ballhandling and PG skills are the hardest to develop. You have either developed those before HS or not.

That meant to read before college, not HS. :)