UI prof arrested for SFC incident

#51      

Shane Walsh

aka "Captain Oblivious"
Cynthiana, Kentucky
Regardless of how one feels about the Chief, this statement is absurd. Of course, this kind of nonsense is mild by the standards of Everyday Feminism.

What makes that statement absurd? Those are her experiences and observations growing up as a Lakota. Productive discourse does not include outright dismissal of one's views, or attacks on the outlet that is brave enough to share them.

Let me know if I am venturing too far off topic for the thread, and I am definitely not trying to start a flame war, but I am interested in a rational discussion. The story is national now and most are calling us silly and backwards. That has blow back on not just the sports teams, but the institution as a whole.
 
#52      
I know its a heavily unpopular opinion, and if you asked me even a year ago I would've been at the opposite end of the spectrum, but I do think its time we move on. Now we are "retiring" drum beats because they sound too native american? To me, these are moves by individuals that are trying to cut the legs out of all native american traces for the sole reason of stopping any pro chief movements.

I think theres a growing group of people who understand the chief will never return, including the imagery and logos, to official status. I dont think we need a mascot or name change, but I do think we need to not lose sight of what all the chief supporters think the chief represented--honoring native americans. If that's truly what he did represent, then we need stop eliminating things just because they have traces of native american culture in them.

I personally feel like removing their culture from the university in total is definitely the wrong move.
 
#54      
I know its a heavily unpopular opinion, and if you asked me even a year ago I would've been at the opposite end of the spectrum, but I do think its time we move on. Now we are "retiring" drum beats because they sound too native american? To me, these are moves by individuals that are trying to cut the legs out of all native american traces for the sole reason of stopping any pro chief movements.

I think theres a growing group of people who understand the chief will never return, including the imagery and logos, to official status. I dont think we need a mascot or name change, but I do think we need to not lose sight of what all the chief supporters think the chief represented--honoring native americans. If that's truly what he did represent, then we need stop eliminating things just because they have traces of native american culture in them.

I personally feel like removing their culture from the university in total is definitely the wrong move.

Again, just because that's how it was intended, does mean it was perceived in that way. The call for change, from those who were supposed to be honored, supports the fact that it was not perceived that way.
 
#55      

Shane Walsh

aka "Captain Oblivious"
Cynthiana, Kentucky
I dont think we need a mascot or name change, but I do think we need to not lose sight of what all the chief supporters think the chief represented--honoring native americans. If that's truly what he did represent, then we need stop eliminating things just because they have traces of native american culture in them.

That is understandable, but the problem with the bolded section is that in the history section of honorthechief.org it clearly states that is not what the chief represented. http://honorthechief.org/history

"In 1926, two Eagle Scouts, Lester Leutwiler and Ralph Hubbard, combined their extensive knowledge of Indian lore and dance that they learned at the World Boyscout Jamboree in Denmark into the creation of “the Chief”. The intention of the symbol was to reflect the honor and tradition at the University of Illinois. Chief Illiniwek was not created to portray a real person, rather, a high-minded concept of unity."

The funniest part about that is the notion that two Eagle Scouts gained an "extensive knowledge of Indian lore and dance" at the World Boyscout Jamboree in Denmark in 1926. Did they learn about Pakistanis and Iranians as well I wonder?

Here is another kick in the pants, there was no World Boy Scout Jamboree in Denmark in 1926.

It is impossible to ignore the fact that the Chief means different things to different people, and not all of them are bad. But to some it means something very ugly, dark, and hurtful. This needs to be acknowledged, not denied outright.
 
#56      

Tophe

Middle TN
Here is another kick in the pants, there was no World Boy Scout Jamboree in Denmark in 1926.

I believe the "In 1926" refers to when they combined their knowledge and created the Chief, not when they attended the Jamboree. There was a World Scout Jamboree in Denmark in 1924.

It is impossible to ignore the fact that the Chief means different things to different people, and not all of them are bad. But to some it means something very ugly, dark, and hurtful. This needs to be acknowledged, not denied outright.

I agree with this.
 
#57      

SycIllini

Sycamore, Illinois
It is impossible to ignore the fact that the Chief means different things to different people, and not all of them are bad. But to some it means something very ugly, dark, and hurtful. This needs to be acknowledged, not denied outright.

Couldn’t you replace “the Chief” with just about anything and this statement would be true? There is someone or some group of people that have a problem with almost every subject it seems. If you realize that the question becomes who are we trying please? Everyone will not be pleased no matter what is done or not done.
 
#58      
Explain how your First Amendment rights are being infringed upon.

When government employees on government property at government events open to the public are trying to regulate how private citizens express themselves there are First Amendment issues.

Kent Brown, U of Illinois’ SID, acknowledged that in his Penny interview on 8/25/17 when he said that the DIA couldn’t stop fans from doing the “War Chant.” (Despite the fact that a DIA employee had done that very thing at a soccer game the day before.)

So when Rosenstein - a government employee on government property at a government sponsored event - is harassing a private citizen by following him into the bathroom with a camera - an act that is so well understood to qualify as harassment that it is specifically made illegal by State statute - in an effort to control the way in which that private citizen expresses himself, there is a First Alendment problem there. This is not two private citizens having a difference of opinion and both expressing themselves freely.

You can love or hate the Chief as much as you want, but government officials cannot harass and intimidate people to control their speech.
 
#59      

SycIllini

Sycamore, Illinois
That is understandable, but the problem with the bolded section is that in the history section of honorthechief.org it clearly states that is not what the chief represented. http://honorthechief.org/history

"In 1926, two Eagle Scouts, Lester Leutwiler and Ralph Hubbard, combined their extensive knowledge of Indian lore and dance that they learned at the World Boyscout Jamboree in Denmark into the creation of “the Chief”. The intention of the symbol was to reflect the honor and tradition at the University of Illinois. Chief Illiniwek was not created to portray a real person, rather, a high-minded concept of unity."

The funniest part about that is the notion that two Eagle Scouts gained an "extensive knowledge of Indian lore and dance" at the World Boyscout Jamboree in Denmark in 1926. Did they learn about Pakistanis and Iranians as well I wonder?

Here is another kick in the pants, there was no World Boy Scout Jamboree in Denmark in 1926.

It is impossible to ignore the fact that the Chief means different things to different people, and not all of them are bad. But to some it means something very ugly, dark, and hurtful. This needs to be acknowledged, not denied outright.

I realize you are mocking the Boy Scout tie in and I can only speak to the younger Cub Scouts but, the Cub Scouts use quite a bit of Native American reference in their mottos, creeds, names and programs.
 
#60      

mattcoldagelli

The Transfer Portal
When government employees on government property at government events open to the public are trying to regulate how private citizens express themselves there are First Amendment issues.

The post I was responding to was making the blanket ask of "I want the Chief, these people don't want to let me have the Chief...First Amendment?" and not the Rosenstein situation, but let's game out that Rosenstein situation anyway.

Your above quote certainly sounds ominous! And drawn in the broadest possible terms, yes, there probably would be grounds for a speech complaint there. Fortunately, since this was a real thing that happened, we don't have to paint with broad brushes and can get specific.

Kent Brown, U of Illinois’ SID, acknowledged that in his Penny interview on 8/25/17 when he said that the DIA couldn’t stop fans from doing the “War Chant.” (Despite the fact that a DIA employee had done that very thing at a soccer game the day before.)

Kent is the SID, and not say, a guest blogger at Popehat, so I'm guessing this was mostly a combination of CYA and a matter of practical consideration - the "War Chant" boils down to people clapping in unison. How would that ever be policed in any meaningful way, even if one granted it was proper for the DIA to police it? On the other hand, if students at a soccer game were hurling racial epithets at one of the referees, surely you agree that they would either be asked to stop or removed from the premises, and the DIA would be justified in doing both?

I feel it's not a controversial statement to say in some circumstances, it would be reasonable for the DIA to intervene when someone is expressing themselves, regardless of the fact that they are a public entity. Watch a courtroom sometime - if someone is disruptive, actual armed agents of the state will remove that person from the proceedings. This bright line you're positing of "public employees can't do anything to private citizens trying to express themselves" doesn't really exist, at least not as you define it.

So when Rosenstein - a government employee on government property at a government sponsored event

It's also important to point out that while Rosenstein may be a public employee, he is not employed by the DIA and he is not at the basketball game as an employee. Your setup of this scenario is so wildly broad that it would include a postal worker getting into a disagreement that escalates into shoving match with another person at the town tree-lighting ceremony at a public park.

Is that person guilty of assault? Maybe! Guilty of abridging someone's First Amendment rights? Laughably not, even though he would meet your criteria of being "a government employee on government property at a government sponsored event open to the public."

Oh, and about that last part...

events open to the public

Illinois basketball games are not "open to the public" - they are open to people that have tickets. And, as anyone who has purchased a ticket before understands, they are varying degrees of conditions that the buyer agrees to by the act of purchasing the ticket and entering the arena. DIA staff could tell someone wearing a "F*CK THE HOOSIERS" shirt (without the asterisk) to change/cover it or leave - that's not a First Amendment issue. Now, if UIPD hassle that same person for walking on the Quad with that shirt? Yeah, probably a different story. But that's not what we're dealing with here.

Rosenstein was arrested for exactly what he was guilty of - being a super creepy schlub. But it is likely a stretch to think that even a DIA staffer asking someone dressed in Chief regalia to leave the building would be considered a First Amendment issue, let alone this instance of some random professor - who is not working at the game or employed by the DIA - doing something in the same vein.
 
#61      

Shane Walsh

aka "Captain Oblivious"
Cynthiana, Kentucky
Couldn’t you replace “the Chief” with just about anything and this statement would be true? There is someone or some group of people that have a problem with almost every subject it seems. If you realize that the question becomes who are we trying please? Everyone will not be pleased no matter what is done or not done.

Yes, you could absolutely replace "the Chief" with "hamburgers", or "the Chevy", or even "a Squirrel" and those might be disturbing to someone. The big issue here is that none of these other things are a race of people or been singled out as disparaging. Besides, we are not discussing "almost every subject", we are discussing the Chief here.
 
#62      

Shane Walsh

aka "Captain Oblivious"
Cynthiana, Kentucky
I realize you are mocking the Boy Scout tie in and I can only speak to the younger Cub Scouts but, the Cub Scouts use quite a bit of Native American reference in their mottos, creeds, names and programs.

Not mocking the Boy Scout tie in at all, sorry if I came off that way. Let me try and make my point a little clearer here.

Do you feel that you could gain an extensive knowledge about an entire race of people, or any complex subject for that matter, in such a short amount of time? Jamborees typically last from 1 to 7 days, and while there one does not focus on any one single thing.

Go to a meteorology class taught by an accountant, or a coding class taught by a nurse, or an engineering class taught by a fireman for a few hours a day for 5 days and then tell me if you feel like you have an extensive knowledge of that subject.
 
#63      
or a coding class taught by a nurse,

I took a lot of classes that felt like this was actually happening...

In all seriousness, I get what you're saying. Teaching a subject is difficult enough as it is, let alone if you aren't an expert in the field. This doesn't mean we cant learn something from those who have at least a little knowledge of native american culture though. We dont need a degree in it, just enough to spread awareness and respect for one of the most oppressed people.
 
#64      

Shane Walsh

aka "Captain Oblivious"
Cynthiana, Kentucky
This doesn't mean we cant learn something from those who have at least a little knowledge of native american culture though. We dont need a degree in it, just enough to spread awareness and respect for one of the most oppressed people.

Surely you see the irony in insisting on "spreading awareness and respect for one of the most oppressed people" by continuing to do something which those people have repeatedly told you is demeaning to them?

Also, a little knowledge does not an extensive knowledge make.
 
#65      
Surely you see the irony in insisting on "spreading awareness and respect for one of the most oppressed people" by continuing to do something which those people have repeatedly told you is demeaning to them?

Also, a little knowledge does not an extensive knowledge make.

I wasn't even referring to the chief or TBH anything the university is currently doing (though I'm sure my name doesnt help facilitate that).


My point is this: Removing any and all things even remotely, distantly, vaguely related to native americans is, in the long run, more hurtful than attempting to teach and inform the public about their people.

Maybe im in the wrong thread there though I think its devolved pretty far, since I dont think the athletic dept should be the focal point of this. I'm just saying this school/country has obvious native american ties.
 
#66      

Kostas

Naperville, IL
Been around 25+ years of "Chief" discussion and I still, for the life of me, can't understand why a reasonable solution continues to evade us. My guess...because most parties involved are unreasonable. Seems everyone is hell-bent on a binary solution: No Chief vs Frat boy bouncing around like a dancing fool. Pretty sure there's a big spectrum in between.

In all the years of walking through dozens upon dozens of protests to get to classes, I saw 1 (one, as in single, as in only) Native American speaking out against the Chief. I did see hundreds, possibly thousands, of what appeared to be Yuppies searching for higher purpose in their lives and a cause to fight for. This doesn't make them "wrong", but their number of supporters doesn't make them "right" either.

I think the spirit (the intent) along with the tasteful implementation of the Chief portrayal (in all manners) should be considered in determining whether this can continue (and be re-instated) as a symbol of the UofI, with input and blessing from the group portrayed on how to truly honor the name/image.

FSU circumvents this by gaining the blessing of the Seminole nation. Would be great if we could do the same...
 
#67      
Been around 25+ years of "Chief" discussion and I still, for the life of me, can't understand why a reasonable solution continues to evade us. My guess...because most parties involved are unreasonable. Seems everyone is hell-bent on a binary solution: No Chief vs Frat boy bouncing around like a dancing fool. Pretty sure there's a big spectrum in between.

In all the years of walking through dozens upon dozens of protests to get to classes, I saw 1 (one, as in single, as in only) Native American speaking out against the Chief. I did see hundreds, possibly thousands, of what appeared to be Yuppies searching for higher purpose in their lives and a cause to fight for. This doesn't make them "wrong", but their number of supporters doesn't make them "right" either.

I think the spirit (the intent) along with the tasteful implementation of the Chief portrayal (in all manners) should be considered in determining whether this can continue (and be re-instated) as a symbol of the UofI, with input and blessing from the group portrayed on how to truly honor the name/image.

FSU circumvents this by gaining the blessing of the Seminole nation. Would be great if we could do the same...

Quoted for truth. Even in this thread it seems to be all or none (at least that's how I'm reading it, maybe I'm misreading).

I don't know what the middle ground looks like here, but if both sides had put as much effort into working towards it as they have in being so opposing of each other I think we would have already had an answer.
 
#68      
Quoted for truth. Even in this thread it seems to be all or none (at least that's how I'm reading it, maybe I'm misreading).

I don't know what the middle ground looks like here, but if both sides had put as much effort into working towards it as they have in being so opposing of each other I think we would have already had an answer.

Well stated. And the University needs to take a leadership position in promoting discussion to find a middle ground. I certainly understand there may be bigger, more pressing issues for University leadership to address immediately, but the sooner discussions can begin, the better. Seems exactly like the type of critical thinking and open minded discussions that one should be able to find and participate in, on a college campus.
 
#69      
Well stated. And the University needs to take a leadership position in promoting discussion to find a middle ground. I certainly understand there may be bigger, more pressing issues for University leadership to address immediately, but the sooner discussions can begin, the better. Seems exactly like the type of critical thinking and open minded discussions that one should be able to find and participate in, on a college campus.

There have been 'discussions' for a quarter century. There have been meetings. There have been protests. There have been polls. What new ground is there to cover?
 
#70      

mattcoldagelli

The Transfer Portal
There have been 'discussions' for a quarter century. There have been meetings. There have been protests. There have been polls. What new ground is there to cover?

Right? Somebody describe what this "middle ground" would be.
 
#71      
There have been 'discussions' for a quarter century. There have been meetings. There have been protests. There have been polls. What new ground is there to cover?

New ground to cover? Zero. It's about finding a way to deal with the the ground we already know exists. Until then, we'll have a free thinkin' professor going into the bathroom with camera in hand.
 
#72      

mattcoldagelli

The Transfer Portal
Middle Ground:

How about this for a thought: no dancing Chief, no person dressing up as Chief, but the university and DIA retain and use the symbol of the Chief :chief:

From what I recall in past research, from a design viewpoint, it is meant to be dignified, elegant and of course respectful. It is not a caricature, IMHO and can be met with the respect Chief supporters belive he should.

However, as some have said, opponents want everything gone. Supporters want him reinstated, but deep down know it is unlikely.

Can there be middle ground?

Fire away ( ducks for cover)

To people who have already successfully retired the symbol, that is not "middle ground." That is undoing their achievement.
 
#73      

Ransom Stoddard

Ordained Dudeist Priest
Bloomington, IL
There have been 'discussions' for a quarter century. There have been meetings. There have been protests. There have been polls. What new ground is there to cover?

Unless and until the Peoria Tribe of Indians of Oklahoma engages, there is no new ground to cover.
 
#74      
To people who have already successfully retired the symbol, that is not "middle ground." That is undoing their achievement.

By definition, to achieve middle ground is to give up a little for better of the whole. In direct opposite of that, the anti-Chief side wants more and is never satisfied. I'd even offer obsessively so, in the case of Rosenstein.
 
#75      

mattcoldagelli

The Transfer Portal
By definition, to achieve middle ground is to give up a little for better of the whole. In direct opposite of that, the anti-Chief side wants more and is never satisfied. I'd even offer obsessively so, in the case of Rosenstein.

Yes, you do that when the whole is not achievable....not when the whole has already been achieved.

There are obsessives on both sides. Rosenstein pursuing a suspected Chief into the bathroom is a mirror image of the ridiculousness that is a shadow mascot society doing events and crashing football and basketball games.