War Chant has been retired

Planet Earth, when not battling Ming the Merciless
Chancellor Jones will wait until he's about ready to retire before he comes for the Fighting Illini. When it's done, I think we should simply become The University of Illinois. No nickname required.
 
Plainfield
Another thought: Why doesn't the band start trying different things and see what catches on? The jump around at Wisconsin although not a 3rd down thing is of modern origin. As many have stated here, start winning and get the students into it and they'll start new traditions.
 
In the land of the Nittany Lion
What a maroon: "Iowa Hawkeyes (Division I): The name originally derives from James Fenimore Cooper’s Delaware Indian character..."

It behooves a writer to know what he's talking about. "Hawkeye" was one of several nicknames for Natty Bumpo, the protagonist in the Last of the Mohicans. He was also know as Pathfinder, Deerslayer, and Leatherstockings. The American Indian this writer-who-shall-go-unnamed-because-he-deserves-it is Chingachgook...who as the title of the above named book suggests, was a Mohican. Chingachgook's son was Uncas, who was killed in the book, and was the book's namesake.

Ironically enough, the Delaware Indians--the Delaware tribe--back in the day, as any Boy Scout in Eastern Pennsylvania knows, were the Lenni Lenape. Because they lived along the Delaware River--which is the border between PA and NJ--they became known as the Delaware. The irony is that the river was not named after the Indians, but rather Lord de la Warre.

It's a shame people who write about Native Americans know so little about writers and Native Americans. Looks like someone laid off their factcheckers, too. :tsk:
 
In the land of the Nittany Lion
On further cogitation, the author left out troubling references--at least which should be troubling to him, especially as it suggested that he had one source for this article--that didn't fit the narrative that all team names related to Native Americans are "offensive."

Of course, the Seminoles are Exhibit A, but there's the lesser known Central Michigan University Chippewas, who have the blessing of the local Chippewa tribe for the use of the name. You know, represents and all that.

Then there's the Fighting Sioux of the University of North Dakota. Oh, the irony. Here's a state..one of two, actually..named after a tribe, the Dakota Sioux, that's being banned from having its flagship university named after the tribe. The further irony--and this speaks to the point of "representing who"-- Spirit Lake Sioux voted to keep Fighting Sioux as the team name of UND, but the Standing Rock tribal counsel would not allow tribe members to vote on the issue, so of course, if one person is offended...

The author's lack of research is shown, too, in what he wrote about San Diego State, who is now represented by the Aztec Warrior, the NCAA's "best live mascot." Maybe the good professor wasn't as much up on this topic as he likes to think he is. Check out this authentic Aztec representation. Remember, this is the "live mascot" the NCAA likes best. Make sure everyone sees those videos. They're both short.
 
NAILED it, well done.

It isn't that it's one song, it's that it's the continued erosion of identity that's long, slow and frankly painful to see.
That's one side to it, and it's a fair thing to point out. The other side of it is the association with negative stereotypes. One person's heritage most definitely can be another person's oppression, though. Note, I'm not trying to take sides, simply pointing out that that's not the only view.

Full disclosure: I'm generally against political correctness, and a very strong believer in free speech. If some horrible group wants to gather and say hateful things without causing a riot, they not only have that right, but as a citizen, I also have a responsibility to tolerate it. Shining a light on abhorrent speech is the best disinfectant, as it clearly fails the test of treat others how you want to be treated in a just society. It's also highly preferable to use logic, persuasion and consensus over more volatile methods of handling, especially if it escalates the conflict.

The war chant at games however, does not fall into the 'free speech' category. The university team is a government institution, like it or not. So the next question is where does this fall when it comes to government speech. Honestly, I don't have a great answer, nor have I studied the arguments of those who are against it. Government is usually pragmatic though, and attempts to be responsive while taking the path of least resistance. You can't go to the DMV and get a racist license plate. What is racist? Well, some bureaucrat decides based on who has complained, and how loudly. Honestly, I'm ok with that, as I'm not sure how you come up with a better system.

I don't like the controversy over this stuff, but it's fair game IMHO. I will say this: I'd rather have Illinois sports get ahead of this stuff. New traditions get started all the time, and the best ones usually stick around.

And it's sad to say this, but there's apparently no way for boosters who like these traditions to buy off those who don't. I'm thinking about teams like Florida State, that have the same issue, but have been able to find a mutually acceptable solution by getting tribal support. I mean, if I decided to call you Melvin, and you didn't really care for the name, you might object. But if I did exactly the same thing and offered you $100,000, you might find yourself loving that name. I don't know the details, but it seems both scummy and ingenious to resolve it that way.

Btw, anyone who wants to make fun of my ancestry for large sums of money, feel free to PM me.
 
On further cogitation
Good post showing the NCAA overflowing with hypocrisy. Not sure that addresses the heart of the matter, but certainly makes Illinois look tamer by comparison.
 
Btw, anyone who wants to make fun of my ancestry for large sums of money, feel free to PM me.
Genius. I'm now fully on board for being the "University of Illinois Fighting Late-1800s-Poor-German-Farm-Worker-Immigrants".

I'll gladly be the generational representative of this group, make my check to cash.
 
Cary, IL
That's one side to it, and it's a fair thing to point out. The other side of it is the association with negative stereotypes. One person's heritage most definitely can be another person's oppression, though. Note, I'm not trying to take sides, simply pointing out that that's not the only view.

Full disclosure: I'm generally against political correctness, and a very strong believer in free speech. If some horrible group wants to gather and say hateful things without causing a riot, they not only have that right, but as a citizen, I also have a responsibility to tolerate it. Shining a light on abhorrent speech is the best disinfectant, as it clearly fails the test of treat others how you want to be treated in a just society. It's also highly preferable to use logic, persuasion and consensus over more volatile methods of handling, especially if it escalates the conflict.

The war chant at games however, does not fall into the 'free speech' category. The university team is a government institution, like it or not. So the next question is where does this fall when it comes to government speech. Honestly, I don't have a great answer, nor have I studied the arguments of those who are against it. Government is usually pragmatic though, and attempts to be responsive while taking the path of least resistance. You can't go to the DMV and get a racist license plate. What is racist? Well, some bureaucrat decides based on who has complained, and how loudly. Honestly, I'm ok with that, as I'm not sure how you come up with a better system.

I don't like the controversy over this stuff, but it's fair game IMHO. I will say this: I'd rather have Illinois sports get ahead of this stuff. New traditions get started all the time, and the best ones usually stick around.

And it's sad to say this, but there's apparently no way for boosters who like these traditions to buy off those who don't. I'm thinking about teams like Florida State, that have the same issue, but have been able to find a mutually acceptable solution by getting tribal support. I mean, if I decided to call you Melvin, and you didn't really care for the name, you might object. But if I did exactly the same thing and offered you $100,000, you might find yourself loving that name. I don't know the details, but it seems both scummy and ingenious to resolve it that way.

Btw, anyone who wants to make fun of my ancestry for large sums of money, feel free to PM me.
One thing about FSU that my wife (an alumnus) told me is that FSU had been sharing monies with the Seminoles from merchandise sales for years prior to any PC controversy. They were ahead of the game, so, of course they wanted that to continue and felt a partnership.
 
That's one side to it, and it's a fair thing to point out. The other side of it is the association with negative stereotypes. One person's heritage most definitely can be another person's oppression, though. Note, I'm not trying to take sides, simply pointing out that that's not the only view.

Full disclosure: I'm generally against political correctness, and a very strong believer in free speech. If some horrible group wants to gather and say hateful things without causing a riot, they not only have that right, but as a citizen, I also have a responsibility to tolerate it. Shining a light on abhorrent speech is the best disinfectant, as it clearly fails the test of treat others how you want to be treated in a just society. It's also highly preferable to use logic, persuasion and consensus over more volatile methods of handling, especially if it escalates the conflict.

The war chant at games however, does not fall into the 'free speech' category. The university team is a government institution, like it or not. So the next question is where does this fall when it comes to government speech. Honestly, I don't have a great answer, nor have I studied the arguments of those who are against it. Government is usually pragmatic though, and attempts to be responsive while taking the path of least resistance. You can't go to the DMV and get a racist license plate. What is racist? Well, some bureaucrat decides based on who has complained, and how loudly. Honestly, I'm ok with that, as I'm not sure how you come up with a better system.

I don't like the controversy over this stuff, but it's fair game IMHO. I will say this: I'd rather have Illinois sports get ahead of this stuff. New traditions get started all the time, and the best ones usually stick around.

And it's sad to say this, but there's apparently no way for boosters who like these traditions to buy off those who don't. I'm thinking about teams like Florida State, that have the same issue, but have been able to find a mutually acceptable solution by getting tribal support. I mean, if I decided to call you Melvin, and you didn't really care for the name, you might object. But if I did exactly the same thing and offered you $100,000, you might find yourself loving that name. I don't know the details, but it seems both scummy and ingenious to resolve it that way.

Btw, anyone who wants to make fun of my ancestry for large sums of money, feel free to PM me.
Well said.
 
Southern Illinois
Who is going to remember our Native Americans once we've whitewashed away all the supposed negative imagery, music, references, etc..? Probably just the gamblers eh? Cuz gambling is such a wholesome thing, right?
 
Washington, DC
Who is going to remember our Native Americans once we've whitewashed away all the supposed negative imagery, music, references, etc..? Probably just the gamblers eh? Cuz gambling is such a wholesome thing, right?
Wait, your argument is society should keep horrible racist caricatures of Native Americans because, hey, least we're remembering they exist???

Why don't we instead stop being lazy and do better as a society to recognize their actual culture and what they've contributed to this country.

Interestingly enough, at the Museum of the American Indian, right here in D.C. on the Mall next to the Capitol, there's an entire building dedicated to their various cultures and contributions, without reference to racist mascots (or white dudes playing dress-up).
 
Who is going to remember our Native Americans once we've whitewashed away all the supposed negative imagery, music, references, etc..? Probably just the gamblers eh? Cuz gambling is such a wholesome thing, right?
Maybe the people who actually study and teach Native American history, or people who live within the culture growing up with customs, traditions, folklore, etc? Then they can give us correct portrayals, depictions, stories and glimpses into Native American culture, not the whitewashed view we're used to?

For example, they could explain why the words "Pow wow the Indian boy" could be/is offensive (or not). Or, they can tell you if/how they feel insulted (or not) when they hear students say "this is the Indian song" to a beat that is supposed to be, but may not be representative or respective of their culture.

Again, I don't care either way, but the answers to all these questions are not hard to find.
 
Wow! I am, admittedly, part of the while majority. I am very sorry for what this writer has experienced, I have not witnessed what she has.

At the same time, I think she has some anger issues.
Wouldn't all of us feel angry if we felt someone was bastardizing a part of us?
 
Southern Illinois
Wouldn't all of us feel angry if we felt someone was bastardizing a part of us?
Cultures have been 'appropriated' since the beginning of humankind. It's called life. We learn, we change, we adapt, we grow. It is extremely difficult to live an isolated life today. Whether we willingly or unknowingly do it, every person 'appropriates' things from other cultures. It's impossible not to. Food, clothing, herbs, medicine, hats, shoes, language, genes, values, names, livestock, the list is endless. Everything started somewhere, and has been 'appropriated' ever since.

EDIT, what happened to my last post? :tsk:
 
Cultures have been 'appropriated' since the beginning of humankind. It's called life. We learn, we change, we adapt, we grow. It is extremely difficult to live an isolated life today. Whether we willingly or unknowingly do it, every person 'appropriates' things from other cultures. It's impossible not to. Food, clothing, herbs, medicine, hats, shoes, language, genes, values, names, livestock, the list is endless. Everything started somewhere, and has been 'appropriated' ever since.
Right. That's the not problem that author is pointing out. The author is pointing out the problem with people having no say in how their culture is being appropriated. Being at the whim of the fads of the majority where food, clothing, etc is in style one moment and out the other based on nothing is the problem. All these people want is a say. Yet the backlash comes when they speak their opinion and desire to have a voice in how their culture is appropriated. Having a say about your own culture should not be a problem.
 
Southern Illinois
Right. That's the not problem that author is pointing out. The author is pointing out the problem with people having no say in how their culture is being appropriated. Being at the whim of the fads of the majority where food, clothing, etc is in style one moment and out the other based on nothing is the problem. All these people want is a say. Yet the backlash comes when they speak their opinion and desire to have a voice in how their culture is appropriated. Having a say about your own culture should not be a problem.
Has anyone ever had any say in that?
 
Sycamore, Illinois
When whites are no longer the cultural majority in the not so distant future who will other cultures demonize? While the writer says that she does not support cultural seggregation that is exactly what it sounds like she is suggesting.
 
When whites are no longer the cultural majority in the not so distant future who will other cultures demonize? While the writer says that she does not support cultural seggregation that is exactly what it sounds like she is suggesting.
The next cultural majority.