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Old May 6, 2018, 12:54 PM   #251
RIVERCITYCHIEF
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Originally Posted by Obelix View Post
There were only a few good centers in any era. It is just difficult to find the physical aspects of the position, but it is not that Russell played in the same era as Akeem and Ewing. You stick Towns and Embiid in the Russell era, or the Ewing/Akeem era and I think they would kill it.


I do not think that is true. As I gave you an example, a legend like Cousy, who had a major award named after him, would have difficulty staying with today's PGs. But what he did in his era, compared to the level of basketball and players back then, was simply nothing but amazing.

Basketball has definitely gotten better over the years. More emphasis on the athlete rather than the teams, but that is a result of commercialism rather than players not being better.
I never saw Cousy play other than video. Nor did I see Russell play. I just go by what respected coaches said about each of them. I dont recall the coach that said Russel was a top 3 center just recently. I would imagine Cousy to have a similar skill set to John Stocktion based on tapes and coaches. Maybe you have seen him if so then perhaps I am incorrect in Cousy's case.
The main reason the game has changed IMO for the worse is due to several rule changes and how it's called. It's easier to drive and score now more than ever. Much of the physical nature of basketball has been removed allowing more movement and easier scoring. I dont feel athletes are born any different now than they used to, so much is about self promotion. People always say training or development is better for decades but is it really? Is it about team basketball and development or highlight reels?. I could argue they arent as good anymore because players dont stay and develop in college as long as they used to.
I really love Okoro's game and would love to have strong rebounding, some offense and defensive presence again. I think he can develop maybe into an NBA 4 but it will take time. Too many players dont stay and develop. I hope we land him and he stays. Okoro can already can do a lot that could help next season if he reclassified.
Unfortunately I dont think players at the University of Illinios are better than they once were.. I hope we are on the right path with Ayo, Trent, and hopefully Okoro Speaking of Ayo I hope he stays and puts in the work and doesnt try the NBA until he is developed and ready too.I think BU is moving towards being as good again. I'd love to be able to say Illini Hoops is better now than ever.

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Old May 6, 2018, 02:32 PM   #252
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The insiders are coming...

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Old May 6, 2018, 02:38 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Obelix View Post
There were only a few good centers in any era. It is just difficult to find the physical aspects of the position, but it is not that Russell played in the same era as Akeem and Ewing. You stick Towns and Embiid in the Russell era, or the Ewing/Akeem era and I think they would kill it.


I do not think that is true. As I gave you an example, a legend like Cousy, who had a major award named after him, would have difficulty staying with today's PGs. But what he did in his era, compared to the level of basketball and players back then, was simply nothing but amazing.

Basketball has definitely gotten better over the years. More emphasis on the athlete rather than the teams, but that is a result of commercialism rather than players not being better.
Agreed it's better, and it's different. The reason it is better is because of differences. That being said, I still has the one on one aspects, which back in day, if you had a great you ruled. There just wasn't as many. Celtics ruled because of Russell, but he was good because of great guard play, and teamwork .

The speed has changed everything so much, but the media has had it's impact too. Guys having a brand has made everyone more conscious of the great ones. TV input having more commercial ads running makes these guys bigger than life. Older era players didn't have all the world wide attention, but they were still great.

Back to our situation, Okoro is a good player, but will only get better when he has others to help him. Coaching will help, but his play improves with group to let him elevate his game. He has said he is tired of being double teamed. It will be interesting to see how he does, once he gets in college game. Hopefully it's in the B1G, and hopefully in Orange and Blue. Things seem to being looking better on his decision , ready to have this a done deal.
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Old May 6, 2018, 03:27 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Obelix View Post
I think you confuse when people say that a player was one of the top in history, with actually been better than today's players. Especially when it comes to comparing totally different eras. Greatness is measured as deviation from the mean and rest of players at their time, as well as accomplishments (titles, etc.). Not necessarily competition against today's or future players.

There is evolution, in all sports. There is backward compatibility, so today's best basketball players could definitely compete in the past with success, but not necessarily forward compatibility. Just that the best could withstand the test of time longer. Could you imagine the Greek Freak back in the Cousy, Russell era? He would be absolutely dominant. At the same time, Cousy would not be able to play today and hang with today's best PGs.

There is also a difference between refereeing, rules, etc. and actual ability, skills, and physical ability. Nutrition and supplements (i.e., not illegal ones), strength and conditioning programs, training, medical care, equipment, facilities, resources, opportunities, etc., all have improved creating better athletes in all sports although the ability to differentiate compared to other athletes in your sport diminishes.
We can disagree. No way are athletes better just due to time. Their are so many other factors the effect sport. Cell phones, video games, coaching, life choices. Parks are not full like they once were without adults around. . It's hard to let your kids grab a ball or glove and go to the park. I also disagree with your notion that athletic ability is primarily something we can create with hard work or when you are born.. It's not, its god given. Whether you use it is up to you.
To me Ali, Nicholas. Jordan, Lebron,Kareem, and Barry Sanders are the greatest and the year they were born had very little to do with it. There were factors that influenced it but being a gifted athlete has more to do with God than anything. Hardwork or when your born doesnt give you that gift.
.
I wish Illini football and Basketball applied to your theory as well. I know our facilities are the best they have ever been. We have a good staff in place. I believe we are in the process of getting some top players and I just hope they have God given athleticism and the heart and desire of Kenny Battle and Dee Brown. Or passion and ability of Butkus. I feel it we are on the right path and when we get there in 20__. The date will have little impact on it.

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Old May 6, 2018, 03:30 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Obelix View Post
Could you imagine the Greek Freak back in the Cousy, Russell era? He would be absolutely dominant. At the same time, Cousy would not be able to play today and hang with today's best PGs.

There is also a difference between refereeing, rules, etc. and actual ability, skills, and physical ability. Nutrition and supplements (i.e., not illegal ones), strength and conditioning programs, training, medical care, equipment, facilities, resources, opportunities, etc., all have improved creating better athletes in all sports although the ability to differentiate compared to other athletes in your sport diminishes.
I cannot imagine the Greek Freak in the old days without today's physical training. I saw a special on him, and he was a skinny dude. Would he have gotten to be such a physical specimen back in the day? Obviously we'll never know, but I think doubtful.

On the flip side, how might a Cousy type be in today's game if he was able to play year round, and had the benefits bolded above. Stockton type comes to mind.

Back to recruiting, let's hope Okoro smoke is real. Captan Obvious, but we really need him.

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Old May 6, 2018, 03:52 PM   #256
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Not sure I could move something that size with a forklift. Man he moves for a big guy, though.
it's a piece of cake
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Old May 6, 2018, 03:56 PM   #257
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And back in my day we walked to school in 5 feet of snow. UPHILL BOTH WAYS!
and players had to go to college for 4 years and learn SOMETHING
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Old May 6, 2018, 04:58 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by IlliniJim20 View Post
I cannot imagine the Greek Freak in the old days without today's physical training. I saw a special on him, and he was a skinny dude. Would he have gotten to be such a physical specimen back in the day? Obviously we'll never know, but I think doubtful.
No way he would have been as good, sports is science in our days. Not only today's physical training, but all the aforementioned factors (nutrition, training, medical care, equipment, facilities, resources, opportunities).

You have recruits at 17-18 now that look nothing like recruits of the past, and only get better with much improved regimes in the NBA.
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Old May 6, 2018, 06:41 PM   #259
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It is not just due to time. As the post says it is because "nutrition and supplements (i.e., not illegal ones), strength and conditioning programs, training, medical care, equipment, facilities, resources, opportunities, etc., all have improved, creating better athletes in all sports."
God gives athletic ability. People dont just get it through technolog, hard work, facilities, and nutrition. If that were the case our facilities and nutrition and strength program would have illinois basketball the best it's ever been. The same applies to the NBA. I think when you think about high school players I remember several large elite high schoolers from the 80s until now. That hasn't changed at all. Thomad Hamilton jr, shawn Kemp, shaq, Wayman Tisdale, Sullinger, Ewing Magic, and our own Big George and Efrem Winters. There are recent players like that still and there were guys like Okoro too. I dont recall many with thighs like Winters had, he was explosive. You can believe athletes are made by men all you want but God makes them and will continue to. Otherwise players like MJ, Lebron. Kareem. Magic, Akeem, Duncan would be produced by labs and programs everywhere.
This years big man should be specail and was described as the best since Shaq or Akeem But God made him not the university or Arizona and he will again but it won't mean those before him were not just as good or even better players. I am done beating this horse. We clearly disagree with what makes great players great and why can do the things they do. Heart and God given ability dint come in a bottle.
I hope Okoro signs soon because our program needs players like we had again back in the day. He has unique god given ability. We cant make them with just nutrition, lifting weights and great facilities. That just enhances it

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Old May 6, 2018, 07:03 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by RIVERCITYCHIEF View Post
God gives athletic ability. People dont just get it through technolog, hard work, facilities, and nutrition. If that were the case our facilities and nutrition and strength program would have illinois basketball the best it's ever been. The same applies to the NBA. I think when you think about high school players I remember several large elite high schoolers from the 80s until now. That hasn't changed at all. Thomad Hamilton jr, shawn Kemp, shaq, Wayman Tisdale, Sullinger, Ewing Magic, and our own Big George and Efrem Winters. There are recent players like that still and there were guys like Okoro too. I dont recall many with thighs like Winters had, he was explosive. You can believe athletes are made by men all you want but God makes them and will continue to. Otherwise players like MJ, Lebron. Kareem. Magic, Akeem, Duncan would be produced by labs and programs everywhere.
This years big man should be specail and was described as the best since Shaq or Akeem But God made him not the university or Arizona and he will again but it won't mean those before him were not just as good or even better players. I am done beating this horse. We clearly disagree with what makes great players great and why can do the things they do. Heart and God given ability dint come in a bottle.
I hope Okoro signs soon because our program needs players like we had again back in the day. He has unique god given ability. We cant make them with just nutrition, lifting weights and great facilities. That just enhances it
So true, and take it one step farther, Okoro commits, Fletch will take him to the next level, with his regment of diet, strengthen and conditioning. God does give talent, Fletch can make it the best it can be.
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Old May 6, 2018, 07:10 PM   #261
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So true, and take it one step farther, Okoro commits, Fletch will take him to the next level, with his regment of diet, strengthen and conditioning. God does give talent, Fletch can make it the best it can be.
Fletch can certainly help but I hope BU can teach more of the mental aspects of the game that make players great. Heart and mental toughness. God gave Lebron elite physical talent but MJ had that too but it's his heart and toughness that makes him the GOAT imo. Lebron is close though. Trent has ability but he also has the "it^ factor. I think BU will build that in players or they will leave if they cant hack it. Our great teams had both.
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Old May 6, 2018, 09:00 PM   #262
Desert Illini
Have you guys seen the video of Okoro dunking in the gym session? I don't know how much Fletch can build upon that frame, dude is ripped! Maybe add some mass, but dang, there isn't any excess body fat to be had. All that aside, of course there are improvements that Okora can make, but I think anything of a physical aspect is probably a few notches down the list of the Staff's priorities for him to work on. System, footwork, defense, are probably top 3 priorities out of the gate.
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Old May 6, 2018, 09:26 PM   #263
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Have you guys seen the video of Okoro dunking in the gym session? I don't know how much Fletch can build upon that frame, dude is ripped! Maybe add some mass, but dang, there isn't any excess body fat to be had. All that aside, of course there are improvements that Okora can make, but I think anything of a physical aspect is probably a few notches down the list of the Staff's priorities for him to work on. System, footwork, defense, are probably top 3 priorities out of the gate.
One of the best big-man athletes i have ever seen in person.
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Old May 6, 2018, 09:52 PM   #264
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Have you guys seen the video of Okoro dunking in the gym session? I don't know how much Fletch can build upon that frame, dude is ripped! Maybe add some mass, but dang, there isn't any excess body fat to be had. All that aside, of course there are improvements that Okora can make, but I think anything of a physical aspect is probably a few notches down the list of the Staff's priorities for him to work on. System, footwork, defense, are probably top 3 priorities out of the gate.
I see okoro listed at 6’9 225. Have to think they’d want him at 235-240 for the rigors of big ten play. But I do agree that the physical work is not as obviously necessary as it is for most freshman. What we need from him offensively is to be able to hit the elbow j and score off 1-2 dribbles from the pinch post (this is assuming he can already score in screen/roll situations and lobs).

And then, yes, defense. Hopefully we can get 20 mins a game from him before he fouls out. I’m assuming is per 32 foul rate will be around 7-8 lol
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Old May 6, 2018, 10:50 PM   #265
Desert Illini
No doubt, this guy will be a game changer for us if he commits in the next week. In a couple ways! Our immediate 'on the court' game will change for the better. And our 'off court' game will change as well. All the offers we currently have outstanding will become immediately much more valuable. It's not something that is easy to readily quantify, but it will have an immediate all around impact. I'm ready to see what entails....
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Old May 7, 2018, 01:36 AM   #266
Desert Illini
Whatevs.... look at the NBA records and there is a large portion of them still being held by 'old school' players. Throw out the 3 point stuff which doesn't apply to the older generations (Maravich would hold most of those anyway, just throwing you naysayers a bone) and it's actually fairly even. I won't even get into the rule changes that give modern era players an offensive advantage the earlier players didn't have. I'd wager that if you gave the old school players access to the current advances in conditioning, weight training, etc.. and I think they'd certainly hold their own. And I'm fairly unbiased here. I am not an NBA person at all and age-wise I fit about dead center between what many would consider Old and New NBA, probably 1980ish as far as what I've seen.

All this has nothing to do with recruiting though. So I'll finish things up by saying that I hope we wrap up the Okora recruitment this coming week, and then move on to the 2019 class. Roll the last ride over into next year. We have enough incoming new talent that adding anyone outside the top 100 isn't going to improve the team for this next season. We have a few excellent offers out there with the likes of Whitney, Liddell, Cockburn, Timme, etc. that having a couple open spots is a good thing.

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Old May 7, 2018, 06:32 AM   #267
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So back to recruiting.....

When can we expect Sir Francis on campus this week?


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Old May 7, 2018, 06:48 AM   #268
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So back to recruiting.....

When can we expect Sir Francis on campus this week?


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Old May 7, 2018, 07:38 AM   #269
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So back to recruiting.....

When can we expect Sir Francis on campus this week?


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I would bet no later than Wednesday.
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Old May 7, 2018, 07:43 AM   #270
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I would bet no later than Wednesday.
#wewillwinsday?

What could possibly go wrong now!!??

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Old May 7, 2018, 08:09 AM   #271
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So if it's not a broken bone or two, a wood tick will get you. Hope this Wednesday will be neither of those, but will bring Okboro to UI.

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Old May 7, 2018, 09:41 AM   #272
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I should have more into the tonight/tomorrow morning, but hereís an update. Possible Okoro visit this week still, will find out more tonight. Michael Cage is likely transferring. So....that ought to get everyone worked up!! Again Iíll post when I have more concrete into, but was told thatís what I could share.
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Old May 7, 2018, 09:49 AM   #273
tpbradley
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I should have more into the tonight/tomorrow morning, but hereís an update. Possible Okoro visit this week still, will find out more tonight. Michael Cage is likely transferring. So....that ought to get everyone worked up!! Again Iíll post when I have more concrete into, but was told thatís what I could share.
Ok so it appears that the Insider Gods have take pity on us and sent us Mr. Stuemke. Can we please not ruin this?

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Old May 7, 2018, 10:03 AM   #274
IlliniinIowa
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I should have more into the tonight/tomorrow morning, but here’s an update. Possible Okoro visit this week still, will find out more tonight. Michael Cage is likely transferring. So....that ought to get everyone worked up!! Again I’ll post when I have more concrete into, but was told that’s what I could share.
Well....that's not good news. Wonder if the wheels have started turning.
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Old May 7, 2018, 10:04 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by stuemke5 View Post
I should have more into the tonight/tomorrow morning, but hereís an update. Possible Okoro visit this week still, will find out more tonight. Michael Cage is likely transferring. So....that ought to get everyone worked up!! Again Iíll post when I have more concrete into, but was told thatís what I could share.
Ouch, Cage transfer does not sound at all good. Yes, I am Capt. Obvious

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