John Groce at Illinois

[Sir Dunk A Lot]

I was worried about the Groce hire based on his conference record prior to coming here. He has only had 1 season with less than 10 losses... the year that he was hired away from Ohio (where he was 29-8). He has never finished above 3rd in a conference...

I like Groce, but he has shown absolutely nothing in 4 years. As much as it could kill us with the 2017 class, we need to move on. I am tired of un-inspirational basketball.

 

[CIIF]

[



Who has been a successful branch off of those trees?

K: Chris Collins and Bobby Hurley. I would be open to giving Tommy Amaker a shot.
Self: Danny Manning and Barry Hinson.
Cal: Josh Pastner.

 

[mattcoldagelli]

K: Chris Collins and Bobby Hurley. I would be open to giving Tommy Amaker a shot.
Self: Danny Manning and Barry Hinson.
Cal: Josh Pastner.

Tommy Amaker has a pretty good thing going at Harvard and a highly visible flameout in the B1G on his resume.

Edit: May have misread you as saying these are candidates, as opposed to guys from those trees that have been successful.

 

[sacraig]

As much as it could kill us with the 2017 class, we need to move on. I am tired of un-inspirational basketball.

That's just it, I think if we moved on sooner rather than later, it may not kill us with the 2017 class. I just have doubts about whether that is realistic. I can't see a basketball coach being fired until after an AD is hired. All the more reason to hope for a new AD as soon as possible.

 

[Sleepy Floyd]

K: Chris Collins and Bobby Hurley. I would be open to giving Tommy Amaker a shot.
Self: Danny Manning and Barry Hinson.
Cal: Josh Pastner.

Chris Collins has elvated NU, but I wouldn't call sucessfull . Bobby Hurley was good at buffalo but it is too early to say he is sucessfull at ASU. Amaker failed at U of M but has been great at Harvard. Danny manning is not doing well at wake. Barry Hinson Is under .500. Josh Pastner recruits well but can't coach a lick.

 

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

AD's want to get their own guys in there. Groce would have to give him a reason not to, which he is not doing a very good job of right now.

Think of this season as a job interview for Groce here at Illinois, because that is essentially what it is. And it is not going well at all.

 

[UrbanaIsTheShiz]

I wish this was parody.

I wish the basketball on the floor was parody, but it aint.

 

[Big Al]

Up until now I've thought that a coaching change would do more harm than good. Now I'm not as sure.

Will another staff get more out of these guys? Better yet, do we have the right guys? I don't think we do. We've got some young talent, but they're too soft. I love Aaron Jordan and his potential. I think he's going to have a career path similar to Kendall Gill. But his missed layup last night angered me more than any one play the entire game. He has to dunk that ball and tear the rim down in the process. There's no excuse for that kind of weak play in a Big 10 game. And DJW just floats around looking timid and lost most of the time. He has the potential to either be a great player or an epic disappointment when it's all said and done. Versatility and athleticism is worthless if you don't know how to apply it to your game, and right now he does not. And even with our extreme lack of depth at PG and C, I don't want Tate or Morgan back for another year. I really don't think that either guy provides us with anything.

What happens to this roster if there's a coaching change? Not that he's the answer, but does Te'jon still come to Illinois if Groce is gone? Does anyone of consequence (JCL, LB, Kipper) leave?

Will another staff stand a chance with the 2017 recruits? That class has the potential to right the ship in a hurry...if we get the right guys. Will those guys come if we're stuck in the current muck of mediocrity? Do they want to be the class to return Illinois basketball to the top of the Big 10? Will they come to Illinois to play for a coach they don't already have a relationship with? It's a bit of a Catch 22 from that standpoint.

And if not John Groce, then who? Would a proven coach be attracted to this job? Groce seems well liked by a lot of young coaches. Would someone like Archie Miller even consider taking over a program that just fired one of his friends and former colleagues? Are you willing to roll the dice on an unproven guy with limited or no head coaching experience? If you go with a guy like Jerrance Howard, is that any different than Groce -- recruiter without a proven coaching pedigree? Would a mid-major coach who has had some success be any different? Isn't that what we've done the past 2 hires? Do you go after a guy like Bryce Drew that some might view as having some questionable recruiting tactics and risk having a bad team with NCAA sanctions? Cleaning house without a plan in place or potential candidates in mind first would set the program back even further.

Having Groce turn this program around in the next year or 2 is the best possible scenario. I'm still holding out a glimmer of hope that he can do that.

 

[Sal Iacuzzo]

Why not?

I would feel uneasy taking my friends job if he were to be fired. With that said I'd still send feelers out, he would be a great hire. I just think there are more realistic choices.

 

[UrbanaIsTheShiz]

I would think that if you are going to replace Groce, you wouldn't do it with someone from his coaching tree...

I would call that the Matta/Miller tree as much as the Groce tree. See Arizona for example. Holtmann has that team competing in a strong league. we got a whole lotta zippy.

 

[ILL in IA]

AD's want to get their own guys in there. Groce would have to give him a reason not to, which he is not doing a very good job of right now.

Think of this season as a job interview for Groce here at Illinois, because that is essentially what it is. And it is not going well at all.

You say this like we have an AD.

 

[Sal Iacuzzo]

Up until now I've thought that a coaching change would do more harm than good. Now I'm not as sure.

Will another staff get more out of these guys? Better yet, do we have the right guys? I don't think we do. We've got some young talent, but they're too soft. I love Aaron Jordan and his potential. I think he's going to have a career path similar to Kendall Gill. But his missed layup last night angered me more than any one play the entire game. He has to dunk that ball and tear the rim down in the process. There's no excuse for that kind of weak play in a Big 10 game. And DJW just floats around looking timid and lost most of the time. He has the potential to either be a great player or an epic disappointment when it's all said and done. Versatility and athleticism is worthless if you don't know how to apply it to your game, and right now he does not. And even with our extreme lack of depth at PG and C, I don't want Tate or Morgan back for another year. I really don't think that either guy provides us with anything.

What happens to this roster if there's a coaching change? Not that he's the answer, but does Te'jon still come to Illinois if Groce is gone? Does anyone of consequence (JCL, LB, Kipper) leave?

Will another staff stand a chance with the 2017 recruits? That class has the potential to right the ship in a hurry...if we get the right guys. Will those guys come if we're stuck in the current muck of mediocrity? Do they want to be the class to return Illinois basketball to the top of the Big 10? Will they come to Illinois to play for a coach they don't already have a relationship with? It's a bit of a Catch 22 from that standpoint.

And if not John Groce, then who? Would a proven coach be attracted to this job? Groce seems well liked by a lot of young coaches. Would someone like Archie Miller even consider taking over a program that just fired one of his friends and former colleagues? Are you willing to roll the dice on an unproven guy with limited or no head coaching experience? If you go with a guy like Jerrance Howard, is that any different than Groce -- recruiter without a proven coaching pedigree? Would a mid-major coach who has had some success be any different? Isn't that what we've done the past 2 hires? Do you go after a guy like Bryce Drew that some might view as having some questionable recruiting tactics and risk having a bad team with NCAA sanctions? Cleaning house without a plan in place or potential candidates in mind first would set the program back even further.

Having Groce turn this program around in the next year or 2 is the best possible scenario. I'm still holding out a glimmer of hope that he can do that.

What is the origin of Drew's "questionable recruiting tactics". It seems like to me that is a narrative propagated on the internet once Baylor started to punch above their weight on the recruiting trail. As far as I know there is no substance to it. I remember hearing the same things about Illinois once Zook started to land 5 star recruits.

 

[UrbanaIsTheShiz]

Chris Collins has elvated NU, but I wouldn't call sucessfull . Bobby Hurley was good at buffalo but it is too early to say he is sucessfull at ASU. Amaker failed at U of M but has been great at Harvard. Danny manning is not doing well at wake. Barry Hinson Is under .500. Josh Pastner recruits well but can't coach a lick.

Amaker was Brutally bad at UM; Pastner reminds me of Groce, not sure where the substance lies.

I'm sticking with Bo Ryan.

 

[ChiCityHoops34]

I would feel uneasy taking my friends job if he were to be fired. With that said I'd still send feelers out, he would be a great hire. I just think there are more realistic choices.

If your friend gets mad at you for tripling your salary is he really your friend?

 

[coryfor3]

What is the origin of Drew's "questionable recruiting tactics". It seems like to me that is a narrative propagated on the internet once Baylor started to punch above their weight on the recruiting trail. As far as I know there is no substance to it. I remember hearing the same things about Illinois once Zook started to land 5 star recruits.

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/5881996/28218817

 

[WesterveltVictoryCigar]

What is the origin of Drew's "questionable recruiting tactics". It seems like to me that is a narrative propagated on the internet once Baylor started to punch above their weight on the recruiting trail. As far as I know there is no substance to it. I remember hearing the same things about Illinois once Zook started to land 5 star recruits.

Well, there was threatening to have Hanner Perea deported if he didn't choose Baylor, but that seems to be on his assistant, not him. Certainly plenty of smoke around him to say the least.

As far as I know, no one thinks Bryce shares any of those characteristics, anyway. He seems to be much more like his dad than his brother.

 

[UrbanaIsTheShiz]

he has shown absolutely nothing in 4 years.

I have been down on Groce for some time now. The one thing i wonder is 'How on earth did he get that first year team within spitting distance of the sweet sixteen?" Dont get me wrong, I love BPaul, and so wanted Richardson, Griff and the Crew to do well, they were really a good group of guys. And McClauren was a great add. But not all stars. Nevertheless he had those guys playing basketball at a high level from day 1. How? Was it that they had more talent than we have now AND they had been coached well on fundamentals by Bruce? I have no idea, but I feel like that year is a great mystery.

 

[IlliNYC]

I wish this was parody.

Why? At this point it's hard to make a positive case for him. Yes, he's had injuries and bad luck--which certainly excuse not making the tournament or contending for the B1G Championship this year. But the combination of how last year ended with how this year has started are imho proof that he's not the right coach for us.

 

[djnyork]

Fundamentals are not taught nor forgotten overnight.

 

[miggytorres]

That's not possible to judge yet IMO. Groce's first recruiting class are upperclassmen now, but he didn't have many options at that time. Hill was never going to be an alpha leader, I think that was easy to predict even when he was a freshmen, and it doesn't help that he's just 20 years old. I thought Nunn was going to be a candidate but it makes sense that he never became one either considering that he was on the same team as Parker. Morgan was never going to be that guy either. Maybe we'll see that from 2014 or 15 guys but we might not see that until they are upperclassmen. I think the lack of leadership goes hand in hand with having a great point guard. Although Tracy was not an elite talent, I would take his leadership in a heartbeat on almost any team.. even if he doesn't provide starter minutes. I think he's going to be extremely valuable next year even if he's not close to 100%, just due to the leadership he can bring while wearing a uniform, which is not nearly the same as what he can provide right now.

Tracy was not a Groce recruit. You could also debate that Hill was first recruited by Weber then reaffirmed by Groce.

If you are basing the point on limited amounts of Groce's recruits reaching upperclassmen status, ok. The most "alpha"dog recruited by Groce was Rice and there are a lot of behind-the-scenes arguments that his efforts were not always in the best interests of the team.

 

[Illinoy]

I have been down on Groce for some time now. The one thing i wonder is 'How on earth did he get that first year team within spitting distance of the sweet sixteen?" Dont get me wrong, I love BPaul, and so wanted Richardson, Griff and the Crew to do well, they were really a good group of guys. And McClauren was a great add. But not all stars. Nevertheless he had those guys playing basketball at a high level from day 1. How? Was it that they had more talent than we have now AND they had been coached well on fundamentals by Bruce? I have no idea, but I feel like that year is a great mystery.

for starters they had a point guard that was at least a 33% threat from beyond the threat that also could step up and knock down a mid range shot and/or floater. He was also a good ball stopper as well. Secondly, we all too often look at wings for their offensive prowess but BP and J Rich were good defenders with good length. You put that along with rim protector like Nnana and I guess you do end up with a more talented team. We were by far more talented defensively now that I think about it with Bertrand and McLaurin.

 

[Klondike]

Scott Drew is the Baylor coach, who has been accused of using questionable tactics in the past.

Bryce Drew is the Valpo coach, who has no such issues.

Two different people.

 

[IlliNYC]

I have been down on Groce for some time now. The one thing i wonder is 'How on earth did he get that first year team within spitting distance of the sweet sixteen?" Dont get me wrong, I love BPaul, and so wanted Richardson, Griff and the Crew to do well, they were really a good group of guys. And McClauren was a great add. But not all stars. Nevertheless he had those guys playing basketball at a high level from day 1. How? Was it that they had more talent than we have now AND they had been coached well on fundamentals by Bruce? I have no idea, but I feel like that year is a great mystery.

It's not unheard of in the pros for a coaching change to jumpstart a team in the middle of a season or help take a team to the next level. Groce is such a positive guy that it make intuitive sense to me that he'd be a breath of fresh air to that team--and help get them to be their best.

Also, we had a decent year but still finished below 500 in conference and were only a 7 seed--so it's not like we were crushing it.

 

[Sybok]

The best defense Groce had were players who had already been coached defensively by the previous staff.

 

[rtbritt]

Well, I would think that Illinois would be a somewhat attractive job to an up-and-comer. We aren't going to get a big fish, but I would think that a new coach would feel like the could win immediately with Hill, Nunn, Finke, JCL. That is a pretty solid base to start your first year at a program.

These talented players with new systems and new energy that may catch some opposing teams off-guard. Maybe revitalize the team a bit. I am all for a new voice, BUT I don't want to settle on a coach who may not be an upgrade from Groce. I love Groce and think he will have success in the future.

Also, I realize the negative possibilities with hiring a new coach in such an important, transitional year for the Illini. And I realize why a coach may not want to take a job at a program lacking a foundation and leadership.