John Groce at Illinois

[Vermilion Slim]

Greg Vetrone having being a coach at Fairleigh Dickinson has zero impact on their program.

I would strongly disagree with that. Just like any other profession, I think being the executive or "boss" gives you a completely different outlook and additional experience that assistants, vice-presidents, managers, etc. don't have. So I would say that having a former div 1. head coach on your staff does absolutely have an impact and would usually be an asset. Whether or not that can do anything to fix Rutgers is a completely different story.

 

[Obelix]

It does seem to show Walker took a three year hiatus before coming to Illinois. Is that correct?

No, it is not correct. Walker has been an assistant coach since 1997, including at Ohio before coming here. He took a one year position as Dir. of Basketball Operations, my guess is probably to promote his career at a top, big name school although I do not know the circumstances of his thinking on that.

 

[Obelix]

I would strongly disagree with that. Just like any other profession, I think being the executive or "boss" gives you a completely different outlook and additional experience that assistants, vice-presidents, managers, etc. don't have. So I would say that having a former div 1. head coach on your staff does absolutely have an impact and would usually be an asset. Whether or not that can do anything to fix Rutgers is a completely different story.

I do not mean that experience does not matter, of course it matters a lot. Just, that he has not been a critical factor in elevating their program. Rutgers is arguably the worst program (not just team) in B1G basketball.

Again, you seem to have spent a lot of time graphing, plotting, you may even have done some statistical analysis in the background. I commend you on that. :thumb:

But if you start making inferences or run regressions etc., the specific points do matter. The Illinois assistants have quite a bit of experience IMO, quite a few years. If the point is head coaching experience, I think giving percentages is enough (e.g., x% of assistants have head coaching experience). But that is different than correlating with long term winning, and I am not sure if that is supported by larger sample (HC assistants, winning in college basketball). Maybe it is.

I am in favor of a shake-up, but with different priorities. For example, hiring Dee would be my top priority. But that again would go in a different direction from your inference (he has zero experience). A lot of top recruiters actually tend to be younger guys. Now, if we were doing a complete shake-up of assistants, getting a former HC would be a plus. But I do not think this is possible or one of our priorities. If hiring Dee does not change things, for example, better start thinking about a coaching change. JMO.

 

[illini8507]

Fire ford, walker, and parham.

Hire Deon, powell, and dee.

I know that won't happen, we aren't going to completely dismantle the staff, but if we were, that's who I'd try to get.

 

[illinifan3923]

Fire ford, walker, and parham.

Hire Deon, powell, and dee.

I know that won't happen, we aren't going to completely dismantle the staff, but if we were, that's who I'd try to get.

It seems that one of the biggest complaints many have is the lack of head coaching experience among our assistants considering Groce often seems to struggle with Xs & Os. While it would be great to get 1 or 2 of them on staff, I would hope if we mix up the staff we get someone to specializes in Xs and Os.

 

[Obelix]

It seems that one of the biggest complaints many have is the lack of head coaching experience among our assistants considering Groce often seems to struggle with Xs & Os. While it would be great to get 1 or 2 of them on staff, I would hope if we mix up the staff we get someone to specializes in Xs and Os.

Groce's biggest problem is recruiting balance, and his inability to recruit better at PG and C. Four straight years, not a single top 100 HS recruit at either positions, let alone have some depth. That has been a constant. No matter what the X's and O's, and certainly Groce's coaching leaves much to be desired, unless you fix the quality and depth at those positions, we will continue to have major problems. The premise that we can hire an X's and O's assistant who will outdevelop and outcoach opposing coaches and teams, masking the current gaps in player personnel is blatantly wrong IMO.

 

[BlindLoyalty]

It seems that one of the biggest complaints many have is the lack of head coaching experience among our assistants considering Groce often seems to struggle with Xs & Os. While it would be great to get 1 or 2 of them on staff, I would hope if we mix up the staff we get someone to specializes in Xs and Os.

I was a proponent of bringing back Rob Judson at the end of last season. Judson was DOBO at IU, but was named a Asst Coach at IU when McClain left for UIC. All of IUs Asst Coaches have been D1 HCs.

I do not believe John Groce will alter his staff in the future unless one of his assistants land a HC job.

 

[Obelix]

I was a proponent of bringing back Rob Judson at the end of last season. Judson was DOBO at IU, but was named a Asst Coach at IU when McClain left for UIC. All of IUs Asst Coaches have been D1 HCs.

I do not believe John Groce will alter his staff in the future unless one of his assistants land a HC job.

And yet, the difference with IU in particular is not their superior X's and O's of assistants like Judson, or even Crean, but the fact that they have difference makers at key positions. Yogi and Bryant are McD AAs, in addition to a 3rd McD AA (Blackmon) who is injured. Previous years, they still brought players like Vonleh, Zeller etc. There is no guarantee that they will always be your best players, and certainly some lesser ranked recruits may prove to have equal or better talent, but we are nowhere near Indiana's talent right now. Or in recent years.

 

[BlindLoyalty]

And yet, the difference with IU in particular is not their superior X's and O's of assistants like Judson, or even Crean, but the fact that they have difference makers at key positions. Yogi and Bryant are McD AAs, in addition to a 3rd McD AA (Blackmon) who is injured. Previous years, they still brought players like Vonleh, Zeller etc. There is no guarantee that they will always be your best players, and certainly some lesser ranked recruits may prove to have equal or better talent, but we are nowhere near Indiana's talent right now. Or in recent years.

I think everybody knows where you stand.

 

[Flight 33]

I do not believe John Groce will alter his staff in the future unless one of his assistants land a HC job.

Well, that's probably not going to happen this off-season (his assistants landing a HC job)...

 

[illini8507]

I think everybody knows where you stand.

I chuckled

 

[icengineer]

I do not believe John Groce will alter his staff in the future unless one of his assistants land a HC job.

On his own? Probably not. But whoever the AD ends up being, he/she should insist on a change of some sort with the assistants. Even one could make a big difference.

 

[Calvin]

I am just curious of everyones' opinion. How many Big Ten wins do you all think Groce should have to win to keep his job. I think if he wins 6 Big Ten games he should definitely be kept. Anything less than 5 and he deserves to be let go. If he wins 5 I still think he should get another year. I think they will win 5 or 6 but are capable of 8.

If he can recruit a good '17 class, no one is going to want to give up on Groce, even if his team quits on him this year.

Personally, I lost faith in him a couple months before everyone else, and even I would be ok staying the course if he could land a top-10 class for '17 --this is coming from someone that's pretty skeptical about his coaching ability.

 

[Mojoman]

Groce's biggest problem is recruiting balance, and his inability to recruit better at PG and C. Four straight years, not a single top 100 HS recruit at either positions, let alone have some depth. That has been a constant. No matter what the X's and O's, and certainly Groce's coaching leaves much to be desired, unless you fix the quality and depth at those positions, we will continue to have major problems. The premise that we can hire an X's and O's assistant who will outdevelop and outcoach opposing coaches and teams, masking the current gaps in player personnel is blatantly wrong IMO.

This.
It is all about recruiting at this level.
Groce would suddenly be seen as good bench coach if he had landed Snider, or Jackson, or Evans at PG.

 

[DudeAbides]

This.
It is all about recruiting at this level.
Groce would suddenly be seen as good bench coach if he had landed Snider, or Jackson, or Evans at PG.

Or even guys like Watson at this point. Our complete inability to land a top 100 PG, as Obelix has stated numerous times, will prove to be Groce's undoing at Illinois. If he landed Jackson or if Snider kept his verbal, nobody is questioning Groce's job status here at all.

 

[Vermilion Slim]

And yet, the difference with IU in particular is not their superior X's and O's of assistants like Judson, or even Crean, but the fact that they have difference makers at key positions. Yogi and Bryant are McD AAs, in addition to a 3rd McD AA (Blackmon) who is injured. Previous years, they still brought players like Vonleh, Zeller etc. There is no guarantee that they will always be your best players, and certainly some lesser ranked recruits may prove to have equal or better talent, but we are nowhere near Indiana's talent right now. Or in recent years.

I agree with this to an a certain extent, but I would argue that having former div. 1 head coaches as assistants helps bring in high level recruits.

That could be due to recruits wanting to have multiple high-level teachers around them or maybe it is the executive experience those coaches bring to the staff regarding recruiting strategies.

 

[Vermilion Slim]

I wanted to take the discussion of the experience/background of assistant coaches beyond the Big Ten, so I looked at the current AP Top 25 (as a non-exact sample of generally successful programs). Here is how it breaks down (see the attached table for more detail):

*72% (18/25) had at least 1 assistant who is a former div. 1 head coach
*36% (9/25) had at least 1 assistant who played basketball for that school
*28% (7/25) had both a former head coach and an alumnus as assistants
*24% (6/25) had neither a former player nor a former div. 1 head coach as an assistant

So I would say it is certainly possible to be a solid program without having a former div. 1 head coach on your staff, but it does seem like you increase your chances for success by adding those type of assistants.

 

[riffraff]

Just some food for thought. I took the time to look at each Big Ten coaching staff and ranked each team’s most experienced assistant coach from most experienced to least experienced (this is of course subjective to a degree). My theory was that all though John Groce probably deserves another year given the bad luck he’s experienced thus far, a changeup in his staff may be warranted regardless of how Illinois finishes. Here is the list ((Team – Assis Coach (starting year at school): best previous position (tenure)):

Nebraska -- Jim Molinari (2014): Bradley – Head Coach (1991-2002)
Iowa -- Kirk Speraw (2010): Central Florida – Head Coach (1993-2010)
Michigan – Jeff Meyer (2008): Liberty – Head Coach (1981-1997)
Ohio State -- Dave Dickerson (2010): Tulane – Head Coach (2005-2010)
Indiana – Tim Buckley (2008): Ball State – Head Coach (2000-2006)
Maryland -- Cliff Warren (2014): Jacksonville – Head Coach (2005-2014)
Rutgers -- Greg Vetrone (2014): Fairleigh Dickinson – Head Coach (2009-2013)
Michigan State -- Mike Garland (2007): Cleveland State – Head Coach (2003-2006)
Purdue -- Greg Gary (2011): Centenary – Head Coach (2008-2010)
Northwestern – Brian James (2013): Philadelphia 76ers – Assistant Coach (2010-2013)
Wisconsin – Gary Close (2003): Iowa – Assistant Coach (1986-1999)… (also just hired Howard Moore (2015): Ill-Chicago – Head Coach (2010-2015))
Minnesota -- Nate Pomeday (2014): Oregon State – Assistant Coach (2008-2014)
Penn State -- Keith Urgo (2011): Villanova – Assistant Coach (2009-2011)
Illinois – Jamal Walker (2013): Arizona – Dir. of Basketball Operations (2010)

To represent this graphically, I took the above rankings and plotted them against total Big Ten wins from last season and this season. I think the trend line is pretty compelling even if you were to make adjustments based on each team’s individual circumstances and structures.

So you're saying the data shows we should add a failed head coach to our staff of assistant coaches? Worked out for Tim Beckman in football.

 

[riffraff]

I wanted to take the discussion of the experience/background of assistant coaches beyond the Big Ten, so I looked at the current AP Top 25 (as a non-exact sample of generally successful programs). Here is how it breaks down (see the attached table for more detail):

*72% (18/25) had at least 1 assistant who is a former div. 1 head coach
*36% (9/25) had at least 1 assistant who played basketball for that school
*28% (7/25) had both a former head coach and an alumnus as assistants
*24% (6/25) had neither a former player nor a former div. 1 head coach as an assistant

So I would say it is certainly possible to be a solid program without having a former div. 1 head coach on your staff, but it does seem like you increase your chances for success by adding those type of assistants.

I do like a data oriented way of looking at things. The more data the more likelihood of finding something meaningful. Don't take my prior post as totally dismissive, just noting the irony.

 

[Obelix]

I agree with this to an a certain extent, but I would argue that having former div. 1 head coaches as assistants helps bring in high level recruits.

That could be due to recruits wanting to have multiple high-level teachers around them or maybe it is the executive experience those coaches bring to the staff regarding recruiting strategies.

I think former div. 1 head coaching experience certainly helps, but more on the X's and O's and organizational aspects. A lot of top recruiters are often relatively young assistants who have the personality and charisma (and work ethic) to connect with recruits and their families.

Ideally, you will have some balance, have both. While I am a big advocate for hiring Dee Brown (and I also like Jerrance), I am not a fan of having a whole staff of young, relatively inexperienced guys (e.g., Dee, Powell, Deon, etc.). If we went towards hiring young up and comers for 1-2 positions, I'd also hire a more experience person on staff (e.g., someone like Judson) to achieve balance.

 

[ILL in IA]

So you're saying the data shows we should add a failed head coach to our staff of assistant coaches? Worked out for Tim Beckman in football.

I get what your saying, and on the surface it would look that way. But I like the idea of a guy on staff who could help aid in the duties of a head coach, because they had been in that spot before. And not all are just failures as head coaches. The assistatnt at Iowa was a HC a UCF for like 7 years. I know Hoiberg had Doc Sadler as a coach on staff. A lot of talk was made about that as a guy to help Fred out manage timeouts and adjustments in game as a first time coach.

 

[Ryllini]

I think former div. 1 head coaching experience certainly helps, but more on the X's and O's and organizational aspects. A lot of top recruiters are often relatively young assistants who have the personality and charisma (and work ethic) to connect with recruits and their families.

Ideally, you will have some balance, have both. While I am a big advocate for hiring Dee Brown (and I also like Jerrance), I am not a fan of having a whole staff of young, relatively inexperienced guys (e.g., Dee, Powell, Deon, etc.). If we went towards hiring young up and comers for 1-2 positions, I'd also hire a more experience person on staff (e.g., someone like Judson) to achieve balance.

Roger, Deon and Jerrance have been in coaching for how long? When is it that they aren't young and inexperienced? If I remember correctly, Deon was a head guy at a community college and now on staff at a D1 school, he has probably been at this for close to 10 years. Jerrance has been at it for a while and has learned under 3 pretty good X and O guys. Roger is probably the most green, but looks like he has a fine mentor Drew. I wouldn't mind Dee getting a shot to cut his teeth with any combo of these guys should these be the replacements and we make them. Dee would more than likely hit the ground running recruiting and for what he yet doesn't know x and o wise, he surely can teach a player about competing and nuances about guard play.

 

[Obelix]

Roger, Deon and Jerrance have been in coaching for how long? When is it that they aren't young and inexperienced? If I remember correctly, Deon was a head guy at a community college and now on staff at a D1 school, he has probably been at this for close to 10 years. Jerrance has been at it for a while and has learned under 3 pretty good X and O guys. Roger is probably the most green, but looks like he has a fine mentor Drew. I wouldn't mind Dee getting a shot to cut his teeth with any combo of these guys should these be the replacements and we make them. Dee would more than likely hit the ground running recruiting and for what he yet doesn't know x and o wise, he surely can teach a player about competing and nuances about guard play.

Jerrance is in a totally different category. Like him or hate him, he has been an assistant at HM programs (UI, SMU, Kansas) collecting many accolades as a recruiter. He has a stronger resume than the others, I think he will become a good HC actually, although others may disagree.

Deon in not at the same level. Community college experience is limited and it is not that Deon took community college basketball by storm or he is known to have made a tremendous impact as an assistant. Deon is one of my favorite all-time people (on and off the court), great guy. But I do not think he has the personality to become a great recruiter, he is actually very reserved as a person. I'd still take a chance if there was better evidence of his abilities during his coaching career so far. But it seems most posters are infatuated by the fact that he was once a great Illini player.

Powell has followed a better path than Deon. Not sure he has the personality to become a great recruiter either, but Valpo's relative success will help his career. If it lasts, or if he can capitalize on it while it lasts.

Dee has zero experience but I'd still hire him over Deon or Powell at this point. JMO obviously, but experience is not everything in this business. Yet, an entire staff composed of all these guys would not work. You'd need better balance.

 

[Ryllini]

Jerrance is in a totally different category. Like him or hate him, he has been an assistant at HM programs (UI, SMU, Kansas) collecting many accolades as a recruiter. He has a stronger resume than the others, I think he will become a good HC actually, although others may disagree.

Deon in not at the same level. Community college experience is limited and it is not that Deon took community college basketball by storm or he is known to have made a tremendous impact as an assistant. Deon is one of my favorite all-time people (on and off the court), great guy. But I do not think he has the personality to become a great recruiter, he is actually very reserved as a person. I'd still take a chance if there was better evidence of his abilities during his coaching career so far. But it seems most posters are infatuated by the fact that he was once a great Illini player.

Powell has followed a better path than Deon. Not sure he has the personality to become a great recruiter either, but Valpo's relative success will help his career. If it lasts, or if he can capitalize on it while it lasts.

Dee has zero experience but I'd still hire him over Deon or Powell at this point. JMO obviously, but experience is not everything in this business. Yet, an entire staff composed of all these guys would not work. You'd need better balance.

Yea, I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you, I was just wondering when they would not be considered inexperienced and have that used against them. It seems to me, it is more about ability than experience and which what you state about their personalities may very well be true. I don't know any of them personally, but I definitely could see how that could be perceived.

 

[haasi]

Jerrance is in a totally different category. Like him or hate him, he has been an assistant at HM programs (UI, SMU, Kansas) collecting many accolades as a recruiter. He has a stronger resume than the others, I think he will become a good HC actually, although others may disagree.

Deon in not at the same level. Community college experience is limited and it is not that Deon took community college basketball by storm or he is known to have made a tremendous impact as an assistant. Deon is one of my favorite all-time people (on and off the court), great guy. But I do not think he has the personality to become a great recruiter, he is actually very reserved as a person. I'd still take a chance if there was better evidence of his abilities during his coaching career so far. But it seems most posters are infatuated by the fact that he was once a great Illini player.

Powell has followed a better path than Deon. Not sure he has the personality to become a great recruiter either, but Valpo's relative success will help his career. If it lasts, or if he can capitalize on it while it lasts.

Dee has zero experience but I'd still hire him over Deon or Powell at this point. JMO obviously, but experience is not everything in this business. Yet, an entire staff composed of all these guys would not work. You'd need better balance.

Agree. but w/r/t Deon - the purpose of adding him IMO would not be for recruiting, it would be to develop big men. Our post development has been poor - not a huge surprise given our lack of talented big prospects and the lack of post players among the coaching staff. Adding a big to the coaching staff could help (a) recruit and (b) develop bigs, neither of which we've done well (although some credit due to the staff for Mav's improvements this year.)

Aside from his playing career, not much suggests that Deon is that guy, but could be a good idea to add a coach who specializes in post development even if not strong in other areas (e.g. recruiting, Xs and Os).