3 point girl
- texas
:thumb:
Illini Basketball 2018-2019
- Status
Really hit the nail on the head. The transfers, even from mid-top players, is not on its own any indication for concern, merely a form of entropy. The fact we are now 4 deep on true transfers, one leaving the program, and one going pro is now a trend--and not a good one.
Your recruiting portion is perfect. Every coach is going to miss, and miss a lot when going after top 100 talent. Missing on every top 100 talent (guess there might be an argument of getting Ayo without Chin, but probably a futile one) is also a trend.
I will say the season as a whole for BU at OSU and Groce at Illinois is actually almost a mirror of one another. Groce had an insanely good start, we almost cracked the top 10, then faded hard in conference play. But the end results were eerily similar.
BU has a few more years to buck these trends, and tbh neither is a death sentence, because the only trend that truly matters is winning games. I'll try to (and probably fail to) hold judgement until I see the product on the court, but on paper this team looks bad.
JFGsCoffeeMug
BU:1 Trash cans:0
- Chicago
Expressing concern over the impact of losing another player to transfer, at an existing position of weakness for our roster, is none of the above.
What time is acceptable to start blaming a coach for a state of a program? Or for that matter, to praise him? Asking for a friend.
Only when the coach has been fired can one state such things. Otherwise you are not a “real” fan.
AEX
- Danger Zone
There are a few people losing their heads (and maybe you're just referring to those few). The rest of us have legitimate concerns precisely because of your last point. This isn't an all or nothing situation, where you either believe we can be good again or you believe will forever be a dumpster fire. Let's acknowledge shades of gray. We all know this is a major rebuild that will take time. The problem is that year 1, regardless of the lack of success on the court, was meant to be a building block where guys could get experience with a new and complicated system. Well, we lost most of that experience: only 4 guys are returning that played last year. Add to that the fact that we are now incredibly thin in the front court. Sure, transfers happen, but most programs (even those during coaching changes) typically have more than 4 guys returning in year two.
It's difficult to build a program if you are having a hard time retaining players (one's you've recruited, no less). And this isn't Kentucky where we are going to pull in major talent and pair it with a system that is very basic and easy to learn. I believe we can still be good in a couple years, but I also think that our success moving forward is going to require the current coaching staff to start doing something different then what they've been doing so far regarding their approach to recruiting, their approach to the system, or their approach to the psychological aspects of coaching. I'm not saying they need to change in all those areas, but the current mix of strategies was pretty ineffective in year 1. I think that's a fair assessment, no?
What's the other perspective here? That Smith, Black, Finke, Ebo, Lucas, and Vessel all lacked talent and/ or the right mentality and, in the long run, we are better off without them? I have a hard time taking that view, particularly because three of those players were recruited by this coaching staff (so should have been vetted for the right mentality) and we don't necessarily have better players coming at their positions.
Long story short, I'll feel a lot better when Underwood and co. show they can recruit at the P5 level, keep their recruits around, and build up an experienced roster. They made surprisingly little progress in that direction in year 1.
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Apportioning blame is a fool's errand. No matter whose fault it is, you are where you are.
Illinois basketball is in a bad place, and Underwood doesn't seem to have control of the situation or much of a coherent plan to move us anywhere better. That's the concern.
It absolutely does, but there are signposts along the way. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned the Cubs rebuild, which obviously involved 3 years of real down-in-the-dumps losing at the major league level. To some, the lesson there is "trust your leadership, cheer through the bad times and have faith that everything will work out alright".
For the more educated (and honestly, I don't want that to sound like I'm somehow better, no one should be as much of a nerd about this stuff as I am, it's a sickness), it's a totally different story. Honestly, Theo Epstein's overhaul of the Cubs organization, exactly those losing seasons, not the winning that followed, was the most enjoyable time as a sports fan I have ever had. I've said many times that I'm a sucker for plans. Never has a plan been better conceived, better articulated and more doggedly and artfully executed than the creation of the current Cubs juggernaut. Every day, visibly, with hard data, the future just got brighter and brighter, until there was absolutely no doubt that a long-term contender was in the immediate future. The Addison Russell trade was a Moon Landing moment, I'll remember where I was forever (in a bathroom in New York in the pitch black because the power had gone out).
That is not what's going on right now with our Illini. I don't do blind faith unless Steve Winwood is involved.
We don't just wake up in three years and get rewarded with an NCAA bid under our pillow from the Fan Fairy for being good little boys and girls. If we're moving in the right direction, we're gonna see it going forward.
During your scholarly pursuits, were you taught that baseball has a draft that rewards years of ineptitude?
I trust the long term vision of our AD. Can’t just get lucky and draft a Baez or Bryant. It will take time. I’ll always have pride in the Orange and Blue. Loyalty is not about the glory or the Benjamins.....Now that an education!
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Hard pass.
That was me that mentioned the cubs comparison, not sure why you would post “for the more educated” lol to each their own I guess.
Steve winwood sucks by the way.
I look at the 2018 class as Underwood’s first full class. While 3 high school players recruited by Underwood have transferred, only 1 of them was a guy he would have recruited were it not for the last minute need to add players due to the timing of his hire.
For 2018, we whiffed on most of our top targets last fall, which is a little concerning but somewhat expected given the state of the program. To me, THT is the only truly disappointing one due to the circumstances and my belief that he will be a very good four year player. But given our needs going into the spring, I think we did pretty well by adding Jones, Feliz, Griffin, Kane and Bez. For Underwood to turn this thing around, this needs to be a foundational class for him to build off of (plus TF and DW). If we see mass transfers from our 2018 class or TF or DW, if our 2019 class lacks difference makers or if we don’t see progress on the court this year with the 2018 guys executing Underwood’s system (looking at buy-in and identity as opposed to just wins), then I’ll seriously doubt that Underwood is the right guy for the job. But for now, I can still see this going either way.
While I would have preferred that some of the guys transferring out would have stayed, this was likely to be a 3 to 5 year turnaround regardless (if eventually successful). That’s the nature of hiring a system guy instead of a recruiter (see Beilein and Huggins). These transfers merely push back the timeframe by a year for us being an NCAA tournament team again. They are not make or break transfers. If Underwood is the right guy, we should get there by year 4 at the latest with clear evidence of a continuing upward trajectory. If he’s not the right guy, we weren’t going to get there with or without Smith, Ebo, Vessel or Lucas.
For 2018, we whiffed on most of our top targets last fall, which is a little concerning but somewhat expected given the state of the program. To me, THT is the only truly disappointing one due to the circumstances and my belief that he will be a very good four year player. But given our needs going into the spring, I think we did pretty well by adding Jones, Feliz, Griffin, Kane and Bez. For Underwood to turn this thing around, this needs to be a foundational class for him to build off of (plus TF and DW). If we see mass transfers from our 2018 class or TF or DW, if our 2019 class lacks difference makers or if we don’t see progress on the court this year with the 2018 guys executing Underwood’s system (looking at buy-in and identity as opposed to just wins), then I’ll seriously doubt that Underwood is the right guy for the job. But for now, I can still see this going either way.
While I would have preferred that some of the guys transferring out would have stayed, this was likely to be a 3 to 5 year turnaround regardless (if eventually successful). That’s the nature of hiring a system guy instead of a recruiter (see Beilein and Huggins). These transfers merely push back the timeframe by a year for us being an NCAA tournament team again. They are not make or break transfers. If Underwood is the right guy, we should get there by year 4 at the latest with clear evidence of a continuing upward trajectory. If he’s not the right guy, we weren’t going to get there with or without Smith, Ebo, Vessel or Lucas.
That cuts the other way though right? In pro sports, failure is rewarded. In college, every time you fail to meet those signposts of success, it slips further and further away.
Listen, anyone who is still on here posting after the last decade of Illini sports is an A+ fan period. My arguments with the Loyalty hivemind notwithstanding, y'all are the best of the best.
Your loss.
You monster.
Heal thyself!
[YOUTUBE]POCUgBSVENQ[/YOUTUBE]
I suppose if I were a coach I would want the players I recruited. Like Smith, Vassel, and Ebo. The players that BU recruited The only ones that committed to him and are all now gone. But I'm not a coach so what do I know.
What do you mean no coherent plan? The plan, as explained by CBU is to recruit players with long arms, who on their worst day can defend better than Michael Finke or Mark Smith. Players who can pass and can shoot. The star ranking means as much as it does to Wisconsin. All newly recruited players with the possible exception of Giorgi fit that bill. If you are a freshman and don't fit the plan, this is actually the best time to transfer. You are much more "marketable" with three years of eligibility remaining. If you are a senior with virtually no chance of playing in the NBA, take the European money now. This is not over yet. A lot can happen before school starts. I'm willing to wait.
For some reason, and idk why, all these transfers and defections really do not bother me. Maybe it’s cause I’m a high school teacher and coach, and I’ve learned over the years, sometimes kids/young adults/players just do stuff. You don’t have to like it, you don’t have to love it, but you gotta live with it. Time to move on.
I’m not apathetic, I literally record and watch every game (not live because I’m usually working during game times), I come to loyalty like 5x a day, and if I lived close enough I’d buy season tickets much to the dismay of my wife, who already doesn’t see me during basketball season. My bias is that I’m way more bullish on BU than most due to my coaching experience in his system and seeing him teach it. I trust he’ll find a way, because honestly, it’s easier to take that approach and more likely than anyone else on here doing it; although there are definitely some good and interesting ideas.
I see some ways to play with this group as is, and that will be a later post. I think it can be fun, I think it can be done (don’t have a choice though right?), it’s just obviously not desirable.
I’m not apathetic, I literally record and watch every game (not live because I’m usually working during game times), I come to loyalty like 5x a day, and if I lived close enough I’d buy season tickets much to the dismay of my wife, who already doesn’t see me during basketball season. My bias is that I’m way more bullish on BU than most due to my coaching experience in his system and seeing him teach it. I trust he’ll find a way, because honestly, it’s easier to take that approach and more likely than anyone else on here doing it; although there are definitely some good and interesting ideas.
I see some ways to play with this group as is, and that will be a later post. I think it can be fun, I think it can be done (don’t have a choice though right?), it’s just obviously not desirable.
I agree with this. There is definitely a plan, it just isn't currently being executed to fan's expectations.
pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
This was one of my band's most requested songs....truly a classic and Traffic is one of the all time bands ever....Love the " when the eagle flies " album
I like where the program is headed. Ayo is the best recruit since Dee Brown. Samba Kane is a true 7 footer and Tevian Jones is 6'6" wing, not to mention the best PG in JC Andres Feliz. This team is so far ahead of last year it is not funny. Look at the positives. This team will be better than last year and next years class could feature another 5 star. When was the last time the Illini landed back to back 5 star players ? I cannot remember any since Lou Henson days. Keep the faith. :thumb::thumb:
I with you a 100 percent
Looks like we're playing small ball next year. I kind of hope that we go completely small with the hopes of causing match up problems with the opposing bigs. They'd probably have to zone us, which would then open up some opportunities for threes. We're going to be small anyway... might as well take opposing teams out of their comfort zone as well. Then bring Kane in when its not working and we need a boost of some size.
PG - Frazier
G - Ayo
G - Da'Monte
F - Tevian
F - Kipper
Bench -AJ, Samba, Feliz, Griffin
I really like Da'Monte in this scenario because he does a lot of the dirty work and we're going to need that... especially on the boards. Obviously these guys are going to have to get in the weight room and become completely committed to rebounding (regardless of whether we start a big or not).
PG - Frazier
G - Ayo
G - Da'Monte
F - Tevian
F - Kipper
Bench -AJ, Samba, Feliz, Griffin
I really like Da'Monte in this scenario because he does a lot of the dirty work and we're going to need that... especially on the boards. Obviously these guys are going to have to get in the weight room and become completely committed to rebounding (regardless of whether we start a big or not).
Dren1
- Glenview, IL
Smith was obviously fairly highly regarded and I was disappointed to see him transfer as I felt that he could have contributed down the line. Matic and Ebo were late addition projects that didn't work out. I am unsure if they were BU's "kind of players" or last minute reaches.
You have no idea what is going on or what the future is going to look like when real practices start. Getting upset over a guy who scores 2pts a game leaving is just ridiculous. This is an opportunity to get a better players. Saying Underwood does not have control of the situation and has no plan is just stupid. There is no one who wants to win more than Underwood, try to remember that.
Foggy Notion
- San Francisco
Being positive is by definition speculating. Planet Earth is a cruel and dangerous place, especially for Illinois basketball.
Dren1
- Glenview, IL
I am with you. I can see why some are concerned and I may join that group at some point, but I guess I would prefer to wait and see what the finished roster looks like before lamenting the state of the program.
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