Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (November-December 2018)

[SampsonRelpenk]

If repairing the relationship means getting back to what it was pre-THT, I can't wait to see which of Simeon's third best player we get next.

I mean, Kendrick Nunn is scoring 21 points a game in the G-League and DJ Williams is George Washington's leading scorer. Given where the program has been for the last decade+, that's nothing to stick your nose up at. The fact that those players' careers didn't work out here is an Illinois problem, not a Robert Smith problem.

 

[sacraig]

I mean, Kendrick Nunn is scoring 21 points a game in the G-League and DJ Williams is George Washington's leading scorer. Given where the program has been for the last decade+, that's nothing to stick your nose up at. The fact that those players' careers didn't work out here is an Illinois problem, not a Robert Smith problem.

DJ Williams not working out might be an Illinois problem, but he does now play in a lower league. That likely has something to do with it.

Kendrick Nunn not working out was a Kendrick Nunn problem, not an Illinois problem.

 

[Deleted member 29907]

So, not to throw a wrench into this whole feeder system narrative - but do we know that this actually is a thing for successful teams? i.e. are the successful teams building pipelines or are they mining gems where they are found? Honest question - I don't know.

 

[Obelix]

While I whole heartedly agree with that premise because it's absolutely true, it does work both ways. There is no good rhyme or reason why kids in Illinois shouldn't be pining to attend their home state's flagship school. I know there is lot of negativity towards a lot of people in the State of Illinois due to a number of factors (rampant corruption, broke state government, terrible roads, losing population, high taxes, economic decline in many parts, inequality to name a few), but man, complaining about it and having a constant negative attitude about it and taking it out on the University that represents your state (still a damn fine institution that has somehow managed to maintain it's world standing and reputation despite having much of it's public funding bled dry over the course of the past couple decades) is not helping.

Yes, a lot of it has to do with the University itself doing a poor job of marketing, and of course boneheaded decisions by many of the University people in charge, but it makes no sense that Illinoisans shouldn't feel the same blind pride and loyalty that, say, Indiana residents do to IU or Purdue, or Iowan's do to U of Iowa, or Wisconsonians do to Wiscy, or Michiganders do to scUM (Michigan a state that has felt just as many if not more economic woes as Illinois does!).

Yes, winning begets some of this no question, but even when Illinois was winning in both sports in the 80s, and in basketball in the early 2000s it still felt like the support was half-hearted and bandwagony for the most part. Aside from a few years with Jimmy Collins it's not like the Chicago and AAU floodgates ever opened and in football it's much the same thing with top Illinois prospects often choosing to go to Iowa or Wisconsin or Notre Dame over the state school. Again, a lot of it falls squarely on the shoulders of the school itself for doing a terrible job of cultivating a following in it's own state for decades and terrible hiring and firing decisions and not keeping up in facilities and thus not making it not as attractive to recruits and fans. I get that, but as that's changing (and it most certainly is thanks much to JW), I would really love to see that overall culture change on all sides: from the school, from the media, and from the residents, fans, and high schools across the state.

Recruiting is "pull" and you have to successfully recruit Chicago and the rest of Illinois (where we are not doing well either) to be successful. To have success at Illinois, you need to be a very strong recruiter. Before Self arrived, the situation in Chicago was even worse, Illinois had been boycotted. Self changed that completely in a hurry, and got both Dee and Luther (2 out of 3 guards in our amazing backcourt were Chicago area players). Furthermore, he quickly mended the relationship with Chicago powerful HS, AAU, and media. Even Jay Mariotti (of all people, one of Illinois' harshest critics) was screaming on TV at Around the Horn that they needed to finish early so he can go watch his Illini beat North Carolina (on the B1G-ACC challenge - we ended up beating them 92-65 in 2002).

If we are waiting for Illinois HS and AAU programs to push players to Illinois, it will not happen. They will simply go elsewhere.

 

[SampsonRelpenk]

DJ Williams not working out might be an Illinois problem, but he does now play in a lower league. That likely has something to do with it.

Kendrick Nunn not working out was a Kendrick Nunn problem, not an Illinois problem.

Of course the A-10 isn't the B1G, but DJW has proven he could have had a role here if the situation was better for him. Nunn's actions were his own, but you can't discount the absolute legal/disciplinary mess John Groce's tenure at Illinois was. My overall point is that it makes zero sense to not even try to repair the Simeon relationship. They often have players we could use.

 

[Obelix]

Yeah, so Robert Smith says we need to repair the relationship with Simeon. What exactly has Simeon done for Illinois in the last quarter century?

Here we go again... You have to recruit THEM, and recruit them successfully, if you are expecting the top recruits from HS and AAU program to just end up at Illinois as a favor, they will just go elsewhere. We need them, they do not need UI, they will have plenty of offers from other places.

We have not been able to recruit some of their top players, and it is not always that Simeon, or any other program, will have top players every single year. Recruiting is about relationships. Self built/repaired an excellent relationship with Simeon even without having top players at the time. You need to build relationships and just take advantage of the opportunity when it arises.

In the past 25 years, we did get some good players from Simeon, Kevin Turner, Bryant Notree, DJ Williams, Kendrick Nunn, even without getting the top stars. Some of them panned out, some did not, whether the coaching staff's fault or their own, but it was not on Robert Smith.

 

[BananaShampoo]

Recruiting is "pull" and you have to successfully recruit Chicago and the rest of Illinois (where we are not doing well either) to be successful. To have success at Illinois, you need to be a very strong recruiter. Before Self arrived, the situation in Chicago was even worse, Illinois had been boycotted. Self changed that completely in a hurry, and got both Dee and Luther (2 out of 3 guards in our amazing backcourt were Chicago area players). Furthermore, he quickly mended the relationship with Chicago powerful HS, AAU, and media. Even Jay Mariotti (of all people, one of Illinois' harshest critics) was screaming on TV at Around the Horn that they needed to finish early so he can go watch his Illini beat North Carolina (on the B1G-ACC challenge - we ended up beating them 92-65 in 2002).

If we are waiting for Illinois HS and AAU programs to push players to Illinois, it will not happen. They will simply go elsewhere.

Not saying I disagree at all with what you are saying. My post was more a comment about the dismal state of fan and Illinois resident support of the state flagship university. It's a negative culture thing that for some reason or another simply has not been cultivated over the decades as it has been in other peer states (states with other B1G schools) that Illinois competes with. It's sad, and I'd really like to see it change someday during my lifetime. It's starts with the University not continually shooting themselves in the foot and making dumb decisions (luckily they are working on that), and then it starts with the media losing their clear bias against U of I, and then repairing relationships to coaches and AAU programs (not off to a good start here but it can change), and of course, WINNING.

 

[Obelix]

Not saying I disagree at all with what you are saying. My post was more a comment about the dismal state of fan and Illinois resident support of the state flagship university. It's a negative culture thing that for some reason or another simply has not been cultivated over the decades as it has been in other peer states (states with other B1G schools) that Illinois competes with. It's sad, and I'd really like to see it change someday during my lifetime. It's starts with the University not continually shooting themselves in the foot and making dumb decisions (luckily they are working on that), and then it starts with the media losing their clear bias against U of I, and then repairing relationships to coaches and AAU programs (not off to a good start here but it can change), and of course, WINNING.

I do not disagree but I generally do not support the notion of somehow Illinois players showing less loyalty. Other top recruits in other states are also getting recruited hard by out-of-state programs, just that Illinois basketball has not been as appealing because of our own fault, coaching and administrative decisions. But independent of what anyone thinks are the causes, it is still one more reason to have a great, great recruiter. If the program is not that appealing (whatever the reason), you need an even better recruiter. JMO.

The only way BU can be successful at Illinois and build a consistent B1G competitor is by drastically turning around recruiting, and soon.

 

[Monte Carlo]

Actually, Nunn not working out was a Nunn problem, plain and simple. Williams left with coaching change, IIRC. It happens, but not sure that either constitutes an "Illinois" problem, even if there might be a problem.

I mean, Kendrick Nunn is scoring 21 points a game in the G-League and DJ Williams is George Washington's leading scorer. Given where the program has been for the last decade+, that's nothing to stick your nose up at. The fact that those players' careers didn't work out here is an Illinois problem, not a Robert Smith problem.

 

[bobbob]

DJ Williams not working out might be an Illinois problem, but he does now play in a lower league. That likely has something to do with it.

BU dominated at SFA during the regular season and won tournament games without 5* players.

I'm always really impressed by the steps this board will go to blame the kids and not the adults.

 

[Dbell1981]

I do not disagree but I generally do not support the notion of somehow Illinois players showing less loyalty. Other top recruits in other states are also getting recruited hard by out-of-state programs, just that Illinois basketball has not been as appealing because of our own fault, coaching and administrative decisions. But independent of what anyone thinks are the causes, it is still one more reason to have a great, great recruiter. If the program is not that appealing (whatever the reason), you need an even better recruiter. JMO.

The only way BU can be successful at Illinois and build a consistent B1G competitor is by drastically turning around recruiting, and soon.

We will see who is more successful in 5 years, BU or Clownzo. I think the teacher is gonna school the recruiter. I'd also like to know what you consider good recruiting? Our best recruiter was Self and he was scooped up by a blue blood at the first chance. Other than him no one we have ever had lives up to your expectations. Give it a rest and give the coach time to prove you wrong. We all know that ain't gonna happen so I'm just gonna look forward to the Illini being good in a couple years with scrappy-under the radar WINNERS! Would you be this persistent if it was ur boy Collins striking out in Chicago? I'm gonna guess not. We get it that you dont like coach Underwood.

 

[Obelix]

We will see who is more successful in 5 years, BU or Clownzo. I think the teacher is gonna school the recruiter. I'd also like to know what you consider good recruiting? Our best recruiter was Self and he was scooped up by a blue blood at the first chance. Other than him no one we have ever had lives up to your expectations. Give it a rest and give the coach time to prove you wrong. We all know that ain't gonna happen so I'm just gonna look forward to the Illini being good in a couple years with scrappy-under the radar WINNERS! Would you be this persistent if it was ur boy Collins striking out in Chicago? I'm gonna guess not. We get it that you dont like coach Underwood.

You may need to pick up the BU vs. Cuonzo argument with the very many people who were on the Cuonzo bandwagon during Groce's last season and before he chose to become the Mizzou coach. I was never on the Cuonzo bandwagon and I actually think the comparison is irrelevant. Very strong recruiting is a necessary, but not sufficient condition.

As far as Self, it is a bad argument. Opting for potential loyalty on a bad coaching fit (Weber) because you are afraid a blue blood may steal your coach because he could be very successful is a defeatist argument. Self was a fantastic fit at Illinois and would take Self's tenure and what he left behind anytime.

Now if you want to get personal, you can definitely compare BU with who were my top choices (in order) during Groce's last season: 1) Archie, 2) Keatts, and 3) Mack. All three got new jobs that year and would be easy to compare. Archie is even in the same conference and so far he is killing it in recruiting.

 

[Dbell1981]

You may need to pick up the BU vs. Cuonzo argument with the very many people who were on the Cuonzo bandwagon during Groce's last season and before he chose to become the Mizzou coach. I was never on the Cuonzo bandwagon and I actually think the comparison is irrelevant. Very strong recruiting is a necessary, but not sufficient condition.

As far as Self, it is a bad argument. Opting for potential loyalty on a bad coaching fit (Weber) because you are afraid a blue blood may steal your coach because he could be very successful is a defeatist argument. Self was a fantastic fit at Illinois and would take Self's tenure and what he left behind anytime.

Now if you want to get personal, you can definitely compare BU with who were my top choices (in order) during Groce's last season: 1) Archie, 2) Keatts, and 3) Mack. All three got new jobs that year and would be easy to compare. Archie is even in the same conference and so far he is killing it in recruiting.

All I'm saying is when coach Underwood wins with a team that doesn't have 5 top 50 high school kids I'll be saying I told ya so. You said it takes great recruiting consistently to win at Illinois. We need to know what you consider great recruiting so we know how close to hold your feet to the fire. Spit it out so you cant skew it midstream.

 

[SampsonRelpenk]

Actually, Nunn not working out was a Nunn problem, plain and simple. Williams left with coaching change, IIRC. It happens, but not sure that either constitutes an "Illinois" problem, even if there might be a problem.

My god, I don't know why we're being so pedantic about this. Illinois had a good relationship with Simeon for decades. Over those decades many good Simeon players went to Illinois, although none so far this century elite. It is dumb for our staff to flush that relationship down the toilet, and it is dumb for our fans to brush it off as no big deal just because we resent how many minutes Jaylon Tate ended up playing.

 

[Obelix]

And knowing what we know now, $elf was definitely in the “grey” area of recruiting. Nobody will convince me Chuck Villinueva wasn’t “sold” on the program. Weber basically snitched on the Self regime during a Score interview. Anyway...

Oh... the classic "Self was only successful at Illinois because we cheated" argument. Of course, there is not proof that Self cheated at UI, and Self has gone to become uber successful and in the HOF. Yet, since Self left, what the program has endured is worse than any probation imaginable.

 

[illini62707]

You know what, here's another way to look at it. Besides for Smith at Simeon what are the high school coaches doing for Illinois recruiting? They want you to kiss their butt , however, when the program changing players come along you don't see them at , Illinois. Those folks in Chicago are always complaining about something. You didn't do enough or you did too much for this coach and player. It's always a convenient excuse to say Illinois didn't do enough when kids go elsewhere. Start sending some of your players to Illinois, maybe, that would help. The only guy with a gripe is, Smitrh.

 

[Dbell1981]

You may need to pick up

Now if you want to get personal, you can definitely compare BU with who were my top choices (in order) during Groce's last season: 1) Archie, 2) Keatts, and 3) Mack. All three got new jobs that year and would be easy to compare. Archie is even in the same conference and so far he is killing it in recruiting.

Sure let's revisit this in a couple years. I believe the Illini will be just as good if not better than Indiana in a couple years. I didn't say we would out recruit them, I say we will be a better basketball team.

 

[Damir Krupalija’s Hair]

The bottom line is, we’ll be a tournament team after next season. This freshman class will be major contributors. Samba, Giorgi will be a very formidable front court, we’ll add some front court depth, Griffin will fill it up consistently by then, we’ll add some guard play and barring Ayo doing something foolish like entering the draft and going undrafted before then, we’ll be a top 25 team. Senior Trent as well.

And considering the depths of where the program was, I think 3 years is right on par...

The foundation is layed. Against my better judgement, we just have to be patient. Once we start winning everything will take care of itself. Until then we’ll just be arguing in circles.

It’s so easy for the pessimist right now because we’re not winning and landing every recruit we go after. They can spin that and just walk out of the room. Anybody should know that’s not how we should judge our success right now. We have pieces. I’m encouraged more and more everyday.

 

[warhawk]

Snubbing them might be tactical. Better to be the somewhat disinterested suitor than the beggar. I will assume these kids are following other kids recruitment and see us constantly "losing" to other schools, and not just blue bloods. Reality is that Illinois is not a "sexy" school right now, especially to local kids. Poor weather, mediocre campus, weak branding, too close to home, lack of "scenery" compared to other schools (i.e. Mizzou), academic rigidity, etc. We're going to have to put a team together featuring international kids, juco transfers, and under the radar guys, and the occasional "AYO's" of the world, until we can be more competitive. Recruiting resources are finite, we can't go all in on every 5 star in Chicagoland to just to lose out, sometimes in an embarrassing fashion.

If were not giving guys like Adam Miller the attention they want, there is probably a reason (i.e. We already know he isn't interested in coming here).

 

[bombayIllini]

So. Who is "Chicago" sending over?

 

[Dbell1981]

Oh... the classic "Self was only successful at Illinois because we cheated" argument. Of course, there is not proof that Self cheated at UI, and Self has gone to become uber successful and in the HOF. Yet, since Self left, what the program has endured is worse than any probation imaginable.

Well it is just coming to surface on a legal standpoint. We will see if he stays super successful now that the heat is on him. Self is a superior recruiter and an average coach. His hi low is not overly complicated. He just has supreme athletes running it. Only time will tell if it was paychecks or charm that was reeling in the big fish.

 

[Deleted member 29907]

Well it is just coming to surface on a legal standpoint. We will see if he stays super successful now that the heat is on him. Self is a superior recruiter and an average coach. His hi low is not overly complicated. He just has supreme athletes running it. Only time will tell if it was paychecks or charm that was reeling in the big fish.

Agree - if you don't think Self has been playing the system (on the wrong side of 'right') then you're not paying attention to the news. And, if he has to cheat at a Blue Blood school to get recruits (which of course sell themselves) then one has to wonder what his habits were before the benefit if school clout, No smoking gun of course, but it has to at least raise an eyebrow.

 

[TopOtheKey]

Much of this discussion is akin to the chicken vs the egg. Good stuff. But the issue is the $3,000,000 per year CEO of Illinois basketball is not controlling the narrative. He may in fact be out of his league. SFA is a tiny school that is ignored in Texas. Okie State is OU’s little brother, even when they had good years under Eddie Sutton. And one year isn’t indicative. By contrast Illinois, even in our current situation, cannot be ignored in this state.

Maybe some of the coaches are bitching because they’d like to contribute? maybe just they like to !!!!!. Does Not Matter. The honeymoon is now over. The CEO is being called out. As I said this morning, TWICE THIS WEEK.

Communication is hard. When in control of a large organization you must be mindful of who can help and hurt you. You have to think critically every day about what you know that has to be relayed to every constituency. You have to be aware of appearances.

As Mattcoldagelli intimated, he cant send a few emails that he’ll see them later? That he’s away from recruiting because of a fantastic schedule? Obelisk says he can’t close. Selling is weak too. Now it’s a mess.

Underwood appears to be a good X’s and O’s guy and maybe he can teach, but indications are he is not a good CEO. Whitman seems to understand PR, he needs to get involved here.

 

[sacraig]

I'm always really impressed by the steps this board will go to blame the kids and not the adults.

Ah yes, two different posts by two different people. That certainly constitutes "steps ... to blame the kids and not the adults."

Unless you think he and I are the same person, in which case it's not me who can help you.

 

[Travis1173]

Long time reader, first time poster. For a long time there has been banter back and forth about using your resources in the most effective manner. The greater Chicago area is loaded with talent, but it continually leaves for better programs. Even worse, the kids there seem to think it's funny to snub the state school

The fact of the matter is this: It's one giant Catch-22. You have to recruit Chicago because there is a ton of talent there. But, history shows us you are most likely wasting valuable resources recruiting the top talent there because they aren't coming to UIUC.