Pregame: Illinois at Ohio State, Tuesday, January 30th, 6:00pm CT, Peacock

Status
Not open for further replies.
#76      
Honest question - any idea how much the staff uses +/- during a game to decide who plays down the stretch? Are they looking at the stats, or is it just a gut feeling thing? My impression of +/- is that it's very noisy, even averaged across many games, so I'm kind of hoping that it (+/- over 32 minutes or so) is not the determining factor for who's playing in crunch time...
Yeah, +/- used to be a major metric used in hockey, but modern analytics showed it isn't all that great a predictor of success. Since +/- has fallen out of favor with statisticians, it gets a lot of hate as a "junk stat", but I do think the criticism is a bit overblown (I'm saying this as a stats person). While efficiency metrics are far better when analyzing both individual performance and given line performance, +/- can give some insight into the intangibles that are benefitting the team. When you compare those with higher +/- lines and marginal or worse efficiency metrics with those who have lower +/- lines with higher efficiency metrics, you can see certain things jump out. Things like isolated moments of very high danger shot selection, or counterattack, or better limiting of high efficiency shots despite getting your head bashed in from a modern metrics standpoint. And +/- does have some tribal insight into team chemistry. Sometimes pairing lower individual efficiency players can provide better tangible results even if from a statistical efficiency standpoint this simply should not happen. Math is funny that way.

That said, this game in my opinion had one of the more severe cases of +/- leading to some poor conclusions I've seen recently. I'll do a full workup later to explain, but the long and the short of it is that TSJ was awful efficiencywise- quite frankly the worst on the court, and Quincy while getting a few rebounds in his 16min had poor individual offensive efficiency (0.88ppp) and largely disappeared (contributed in only 12% of possessions!). Coleman also had a poor game offensively (0.88ppp) but did at least contribute defensive. That brings us to Justin Harmon, who was far and away the +/- darling of our team, and looking at anything +/- related, you'd assume he was far any away our best player. Except he wasn't.

Illinois was considered +6.8 on offense and +3.9 on defense when Justin was on the court, the highest of any player on both sides of the ball. His +/- leads to the conclusion that he put the team on his back and carried his teammates to victory, but then you look at his efficiency and box stats: 0.79ppp, 4rbs, 1ast, and no other stats. Justin was the worst on the team offensively in terms of efficiency! He also contributed next to nothing statwise defensively, and in fact, when he was on the court, he personally gave up double digit points to the guys he was defending on fairly high offensive efficiency for them.

So what in the hell happened? How could someone with such bad individual efficiency metrics look so great with +/-? It makes no sense. But then you look at the usage stats and suddenly things make sense. Justin was on the court when Ty took over the game and Marcus was playing his best ball. And who was off the court in the majority of minutes Justin played? TSJ and Quincy. So basically, Justin rode the Tydal wave to good +/- without having to suffer from the poor play of TSJ or uninvolved play of Quincy.

Point is, +/- can indeed give some insight, but you also have to be careful with the conclusions you make because of it. Based on the lineups Brad was throwing out there, it makes sense he was looking at +/-, but I think he really overvalued it with Justin Harmon, who was more in the right place at the right time over directly contributing to it. I'll add charts of all this later when I'm not at work, but I hope it provides some cursory insight.
 
#77      

danielb927

Orange Krush Class of 2013
Rochester, MN
Yeah, +/- used to be a major metric used in hockey, but modern analytics showed it isn't all that great a predictor of success. Since +/- has fallen out of favor with statisticians, it gets a lot of hate as a "junk stat", but I do think the criticism is a bit overblown (I'm saying this as a stats person). While efficiency metrics are far better when analyzing both individual performance and given line performance, +/- can give some insight into the intangibles that are benefitting the team. When you compare those with higher +/- lines and marginal or worse efficiency metrics with those who have lower +/- lines with higher efficiency metrics, you can see certain things jump out. Things like isolated moments of very high danger shot selection, or counterattack, or better limiting of high efficiency shots despite getting your head bashed in from a modern metrics standpoint. And +/- does have some tribal insight into team chemistry. Sometimes pairing lower individual efficiency players can provide better tangible results even if from a statistical efficiency standpoint this simply should not happen. Math is funny that way.

That said, this game in my opinion had one of the more severe cases of +/- leading to some poor conclusions I've seen recently. I'll do a full workup later to explain, but the long and the short of it is that TSJ was awful efficiencywise- quite frankly the worst on the court, and Quincy while getting a few rebounds in his 16min had poor individual offensive efficiency (0.88ppp) and largely disappeared (contributed in only 12% of possessions!). Coleman also had a poor game offensively (0.88ppp) but did at least contribute defensive. That brings us to Justin Harmon, who was far and away the +/- darling of our team, and looking at anything +/- related, you'd assume he was far any away our best player. Except he wasn't.

Illinois was considered +6.8 on offense and +3.9 on defense when Justin was on the court, the highest of any player on both sides of the ball. His +/- leads to the conclusion that he put the team on his back and carried his teammates to victory, but then you look at his efficiency and box stats: 0.79ppp, 4rbs, 1ast, and no other stats. Justin was the worst on the team offensively in terms of efficiency! He also contributed next to nothing statwise defensively, and in fact, when he was on the court, he personally gave up double digit points to the guys he was defending on fairly high offensive efficiency for them.

So what in the hell happened? How could someone with such bad individual efficiency metrics look so great with +/-? It makes no sense. But then you look at the usage stats and suddenly things make sense. Justin was on the court when Ty took over the game and Marcus was playing his best ball. And who was off the court in the majority of minutes Justin played? TSJ and Quincy. So basically, Justin rode the Tydal wave to good +/- without having to suffer from the poor play of TSJ or uninvolved play of Quincy.

Point is, +/- can indeed give some insight, but you also have to be careful with the conclusions you make because of it. Based on the lineups Brad was throwing out there, it makes sense he was looking at +/-, but I think he really overvalued it with Justin Harmon, who was more in the right place at the right time over directly contributing to it. I'll add charts of all this later when I'm not at work, but I hope it provides some cursory insight.

Really cool analysis, look forward to the charts when you're able to put them together! I dream about having the time/expertise to look at things at this level of detail.

But it makes complete sense that this is why +/- can be so noisy. A bench guy happens to be in the game when some other players send us on a big run, and then comes out while those other players (starters, say) stay in and the other team goes on a run. All of a sudden the limited-usage guy looks like he was carrying the team. And maybe that's true - maybe they were doing something intangible to help - or maybe it's totally noise.
 
#79      

Bigtex

DFW
What about cross matching Coleman on Battle and Quincy on Okpara? Think Coleman is better suited to guard on the perimeter and limit Battle’s 3 pt attempts.
we can start that way but after a simple switch they will have their preferred matchup.
 
#81      
Need to go 2-0 this week, no questions asked. Would be two solid wins resume wise and also keeps us in the B10 race
🎯

Games this week:
Northwestern @ Purdue
Wisconsin @ Nebraska
Northwestern @ Minnesota
Maryland @ MSU
Purdue @ Wisconsin

IMO best scenario is Purdue beats NW, Nebraska beats Wisconsin, Minnesota beats NW, MSU beats Maryland & Purdue beats Wisconsin… in this scenario & we go 2-0 the standings would look like…

1. Purdue 9-3
2. Wisconsin 8-3
3. Illinois 8-3
T4. MSU/Northwestern/Iowa? 6-5
 
#82      
🎯

Games this week:
Northwestern @ Purdue
Wisconsin @ Nebraska
Northwestern @ Minnesota
Maryland @ MSU
Purdue @ Wisconsin

IMO best scenario is Purdue beats NW, Nebraska beats Wisconsin, Minnesota beats NW, MSU beats Maryland & Purdue beats Wisconsin… in this scenario & we go 2-0 the standings would look like…

1. Purdue 9-3
2. Wisconsin 8-3
3. Illinois 8-3
T4. MSU/Northwestern/Iowa? 6-5
If Purdue wins twice they will only have 2 losses
 
#83      
🎯

Games this week:
Northwestern @ Purdue
Wisconsin @ Nebraska
Northwestern @ Minnesota
Maryland @ MSU
Purdue @ Wisconsin

IMO best scenario is Purdue beats NW, Nebraska beats Wisconsin, Minnesota beats NW, MSU beats Maryland & Purdue beats Wisconsin… in this scenario & we go 2-0 the standings would look like…

1. Purdue 9-3
2. Wisconsin 8-3
3. Illinois 8-3
T4. MSU/Northwestern/Iowa? 6-5
There is no scenario where Purdue beating NU is best case scenario. NU is going to lose more games going forward than Purdue is.
 
#85      
These next 3 are huge. Don’t look now… but our resume is actually pretty average. We have 2 Q1 wins, one of which is a home win over a bubble team MSU (that is close to Q2). We have 3 wins over the field: FAU, MSU, NW (2 of those are at home). Our 2 road wins are against teams nowhere near the field. Today, our resume is looking like a 6-7 seed even though predictive metrics chalk us up to a 3-4. Getting this one and/or @MSU creates A LOT less urgency heading into the final week of the season where we go PU-WI-IA
 
#86      
This team reminds me of 2003-4 team that gelled in 2H to win B10 title . We have re-establish our defense and rebounding.
We have the talent.

1706562474360.png
26-7
B10 champions
lost BTT tournament title game
lost in sweet 16 vs Final four Duke team
 
#88      
These next 3 are huge. Don’t look now… but our resume is actually pretty average. We have 2 Q1 wins, one of which is a home win over a bubble team MSU (that is close to Q2). We have 3 wins over the field: FAU, MSU, NW (2 of those are at home). Our 2 road wins are against teams nowhere near the field. Today, our resume is looking like a 6-7 seed even though predictive metrics chalk us up to a 3-4. Getting this one and/or @MSU creates A LOT less urgency heading into the final week of the season where we go PU-WI-IA
Yep, next 3 games are massive… second half of our February schedule all the games are winnable… if we win our next 3 going into our March stretch 14-3 wouldn’t be too crazy to predict.
 
#89      
This team reminds me of 2003-4 team that gelled in 2H to win B10 title . We have re-establish our defense and rebounding.
We have the talent.

View attachment 30674
26-7
B10 champions
lost BTT tournament title game
lost in sweet 16 vs Final four Duke team
Similar thing happened that year. We lost one of our best players after we came out hot. He came back and we struggled a few games before clicking again (Deron Williams broken jaw)
 
#91      
Last five visits to Columbus for the Illini:

2023: L 72-60
2021: W 73-68 (Ayo mask return/Trent Frazier Big Ten champs hand-drawn sign game!)
2020: L 71-63
2019: W 63-56
2018: L 75-67

While not much of a pattern, there does seem to be one pattern here ... there seem to be two things that happen when we go to Columbus:

(1) We lay a bit of an egg when we really need a win. Last year's loss killed the momentum we had just built with the NU comeback win, and the 2020 loss ended a 4-game winning streak. And we just looked completely off in both.

(2) We come out and play inspired and do not appear phased whatsoever. The 2019 win completed a 4-game winning streak that included upsetting #9 MSU and really got our fans to believe in the rebuild and the bright future ahead (remember this was Ayo's freshman year). 2021 needs no words, as it was our third straight win vs. a ranked opponent to end the year and Ayo's epic return wearing the mask.

Let's please let this one be the second scenario, because we really need a win, lol.
 
#92      
Last five visits to Columbus for the Illini:

2023: L 72-60
2021: W 73-68 (Ayo mask return/Trent Frazier Big Ten champs hand-drawn sign game!)
2020: L 71-63
2019: W 63-56
2018: L 75-67

While not much of a pattern, there does seem to be one pattern here ... there seem to be two things that happen when we go to Columbus:

(1) We lay a bit of an egg when we really need a win. Last year's loss killed the momentum we had just built with the NU comeback win, and the 2020 loss ended a 4-game winning streak. And we just looked completely off in both.

(2) We come out and play inspired and do not appear phased whatsoever. The 2019 win completed a 4-game winning streak that included upsetting #9 MSU and really got our fans to believe in the rebuild and the bright future ahead (remember this was Ayo's freshman year). 2021 needs no words, as it was our third straight win vs. a ranked opponent to end the year and Ayo's epic return wearing the mask.

Let's please let this one be the second scenario, because we really need a win, lol.
I see a pattern. And it bodes well for us... this year anyway.
 
#93      
I think not fazed. I liked the smile on TJ's face after the three throws. Add in the hearing date change. As TJ goes, so goes the team.
 
#95      
🎯

Games this week:
Northwestern @ Purdue
Wisconsin @ Nebraska
Northwestern @ Minnesota
Maryland @ MSU
Purdue @ Wisconsin

IMO best scenario is Purdue beats NW, Nebraska beats Wisconsin, Minnesota beats NW, MSU beats Maryland & Purdue beats Wisconsin… in this scenario & we go 2-0 the standings would look like…

1. Purdue 9-3
2. Wisconsin 8-3
3. Illinois 8-3
T4. MSU/Northwestern/Iowa? 6-5
Purdue would be 10-2 in the scenario you described above.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.