texillwek
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If we can successfully pass out of those swarms, there's the potential for some really, really tasty open looks.
Pregame: Illinois vs Iowa State, Thursday, March 28th, 9:09pm CT, TBS
- Status
blackdog
- Champaign
The most obvious difference with the way ISU traps the post is they overplay the top side to force the player with the ball towards the baseline where the help is coming and then they are stuck in the corner. A lot of other teams will play the post man straight up and then the help comes so the guy with the ball is more able to escape the trap either direction. Its a subtle but potentially powerful difference that makes it harder to escape. If Domask can avoid spinning baseline it will be much easier for him to make plays out of the trap. He definitely has shown he is good at backing out of traps but ISU is so aggressive that's going to be more difficult.
Splish, splash, Schmack!
Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
Fun fact! Since the AP Poll began in the 1949 season, this will be the 15th time that we have been a part of a top 10 matchup in the NCAA Tournament. We have had many, many matchups where both teams were ranked, but a top 10 battle is relatively rare, especially for the Sweet Sixteen.
2024 Sweet Sixteen: (3) #10 Illinois vs. (2) #4 Iowa State
2005 National Championship: (1) #2 North Carolina vs. (1) #1 Illinois
2005 Final Four: (4) #4 Louisville vs. (1) #1 Illinois
2005 Elite Eight: (3) #9 Arizona vs. (1) #1 Illinois
2001 Elite Eight: (2) #5 Arizona vs. (1) #4 Illinois
1989 Final Four: (3) #10 Michigan vs. (1) #3 Illinois
1989 Elite Eight: (2) #7 Syracuse vs. (1) #3 Illinois
1984 Elite Eight: (2) #6 Illinois at (1) #3 Kentucky
1963 Elite Eight: #8 Illinois vs. #3 Loyola Chicago
1952 Elite Eight: #4 Duquesne vs. #2 Illinois
1952 Final Four: #10 St. John's vs. #2 Illinois
1951 Sweet Sixteen: #3 Columbia vs. #5 Illinois
1951 Elite Eight: #8 NC State vs. #5 Illinois
1951 Final Four: #5 Illinois vs. #1 Kentucky
1949 Final Four: #4 Illinois vs. #1 Kentucky
Pretty exciting!
2024 Sweet Sixteen: (3) #10 Illinois vs. (2) #4 Iowa State
2005 National Championship: (1) #2 North Carolina vs. (1) #1 Illinois
2005 Final Four: (4) #4 Louisville vs. (1) #1 Illinois
2005 Elite Eight: (3) #9 Arizona vs. (1) #1 Illinois
2001 Elite Eight: (2) #5 Arizona vs. (1) #4 Illinois
1989 Final Four: (3) #10 Michigan vs. (1) #3 Illinois
1989 Elite Eight: (2) #7 Syracuse vs. (1) #3 Illinois
1984 Elite Eight: (2) #6 Illinois at (1) #3 Kentucky
1963 Elite Eight: #8 Illinois vs. #3 Loyola Chicago
1952 Elite Eight: #4 Duquesne vs. #2 Illinois
1952 Final Four: #10 St. John's vs. #2 Illinois
1951 Sweet Sixteen: #3 Columbia vs. #5 Illinois
1951 Elite Eight: #8 NC State vs. #5 Illinois
1951 Final Four: #5 Illinois vs. #1 Kentucky
1949 Final Four: #4 Illinois vs. #1 Kentucky
Pretty exciting!
Van Gundy keeps it real. If we give him a reason to compliment he will
ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
And if you bring the double late along the baseline what Domask will often do is play a sneaky little pass to the big, which has generated some dunks but also a fair few turnovers. And ISU is great at having hands in the passing lane against that kind of stuff.
That's definitely what I'd rather do than dare Domask to make skip passes to a bunch of guys who feast attacking closeouts.
We'll voluntarily become a pretty slow, deliberate, interior-focused team if ISU lets us. Domask will make some plays, but that's the poison I'd be picking.
It’s a shame going into Thursdays matchup that us fans have to deal with all the chirping that comes along with this situation during what is one of the best seasons in program history. If we beat Iowa St, it’s only going to be highlighted more. Hopefully the media doesn’t do shabby reporting if that ends up being the case.
Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
I get your overall point, but I have to nitpick the bolded portion, as I was at that game. After going cold in the last couple minutes vs. Purdue, I think a lot of us were quite nervous to play on the road vs. an Iowa team that was on a bit of a hot streak. And we came out and dominated them.
To "almost" blow a 20-point lead, you have to have one! We jumped on them 22-4 and 30-9 before they even knew what hit them. The Hawkeyes fans were silently stunned, and the large contingent of Illini fans were amped. We ALL knew Iowa was going to make a run, but they never got closer than 4 and EVERY time they cut the lead, we were composed and responded.
Iowa cuts it to 33-25 ... 10-4 run by the Illini to go up 43-29.
Iowa cuts it to 51-47 ... 8-2 run by the Illini to go up 59-47.
Iowa cuts it to 59-53 ... 8-2 run by the Illini to go up 67-55.
Iowa's last gasp cuts it to 69-58 ... Illini step on their throats with a 4-0 run to put the game out of reach at 73-58 with under a minute to go.
I think it's very unfair to this team to say we "almost blew a 20-point lead" at Iowa. We went up by 20 and were up by 15 with under a minute to play ... Iowa made a run as we knew they would, and we put them down methodically in their house.
As I said in another post, what is important is that we HAVE been closing out games since the PSU debacle, besides Purdue who is arguably the second favorite to win it all after UConn right now. I will agree 100% that letting the deficits vs. OSU and Nebraska come about was concerning, but we avoided that vs. Wisconsin AND we closed out all three of those games once we had a lead. I think it's clear the team has improved in this regard remarkably since Penn State.
Shannon has benefited massively from the change in charge rules this season. Prior to it, defenders could "slide" in at the last moment and get the call. Now, a defender needs to have both feet planted and be in position.
He's also improved his downhill game and his handles from last season. But the rule change has likely benefited him more than even those two factors.
I've been thinking about those profiles that are done on teams/players during the second and third weekends of the tourney. Very unfortunate that any profile of Illinois will have this pall hanging over us, said or unsaid. If we continue to advance, I expect the criticism of Illinois will only grow. We'll be the easy team to root against, rivalries not withstanding. Very unfortunate given how long we've waited to be in this position and how enjoyable this team's on-court product is.
I'll have a scouting report posted in an hour or two.
Unless they hit 20 of them
JFGsCoffeeMug
BU:1 Trash cans:0
- Chicago
In these situations, I have seen us make the pass to the far corner for an open 3. Marcus and Shannon have done a decent job of finding the open player on doubles this year.
Hawkins was the key in the Duquesne game here imo. It was an 18-9 game seven and a half minutes in (the distance had clearly started but the game was definitely still for the taking). Next five possessions were Hawkins made three, Hawkins made three, Hawkins assist to Shannon for a made three, Shannon turnover, Hawkins made three. Just three minutes of game clock later and it's 30-11, a nineteen point game and any neutral fan would turn away from the game and never go back because it's effectively over already.
That kind of confidence and execution will be even more important. As the announcer said, he's not so much a stretch big because he can do so much from there whether it's shoot, drive or pass. But that only works if he is able and willing to shoot like he was in that first half against Duquesne. I also think about that game against the Syracuse zone last season, that's the Hawkins you'd love to see. He is the key to the Illinois half-court offense in this one.
A few more thoughts on this game:
1) I don't think this will be a Dain game. I love Dain, and he has grown tremendously this season, but ISU salivates at someone like Dain that holds the ball too long/takes too long to make their move. The only way Dain plays is if he is willing to only score off offensive rebounds and pocket passes/dump offs from drivers. He will not succeed in a traditional post entry situation.
2) Domask has to have a great game in order for us to win. They will keep him from getting to the middle/paint and will attempt to force him into a double on the baseline. Domask will need to be able to quickly go in and out of a post into a face up so that he can see the floor, create space, and make a solid skip pass.
3) The people receiving the skip pass have to be ready to shoot & knock them down at a decent rate. If we can hit a few, that will really influence the game early, as ISU will then scramble more aggressively out to the shooter who can than rip and attack the hoop as soon as ISU closes out hard on the ball.
4) Coleman and Ty will also need to see the floor well and be able to distribute and cut to open spaces in ISU's defense
5) We have to bring it defensively and not let them "feel themselves." ISU is a team that we can really lock down on if we bring it right off the bat.
6) Coleman needs to guard Momcilovic and not let that dude get any 3's. I think this guys is a perfect person for Coleman to guard and shut down as he is an undersized 4/5 that can really shoot well. Coleman is long enough and athletic enough to stick to this guy. I assume TSJ will be on Gilbert and as long as he makes him earn his shots, I think that will be a good matchup as well.
1) I don't think this will be a Dain game. I love Dain, and he has grown tremendously this season, but ISU salivates at someone like Dain that holds the ball too long/takes too long to make their move. The only way Dain plays is if he is willing to only score off offensive rebounds and pocket passes/dump offs from drivers. He will not succeed in a traditional post entry situation.
2) Domask has to have a great game in order for us to win. They will keep him from getting to the middle/paint and will attempt to force him into a double on the baseline. Domask will need to be able to quickly go in and out of a post into a face up so that he can see the floor, create space, and make a solid skip pass.
3) The people receiving the skip pass have to be ready to shoot & knock them down at a decent rate. If we can hit a few, that will really influence the game early, as ISU will then scramble more aggressively out to the shooter who can than rip and attack the hoop as soon as ISU closes out hard on the ball.
4) Coleman and Ty will also need to see the floor well and be able to distribute and cut to open spaces in ISU's defense
5) We have to bring it defensively and not let them "feel themselves." ISU is a team that we can really lock down on if we bring it right off the bat.
6) Coleman needs to guard Momcilovic and not let that dude get any 3's. I think this guys is a perfect person for Coleman to guard and shut down as he is an undersized 4/5 that can really shoot well. Coleman is long enough and athletic enough to stick to this guy. I assume TSJ will be on Gilbert and as long as he makes him earn his shots, I think that will be a good matchup as well.
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Both the guy driving and shooting missed the shooter wide open on the far corner. The best play here would have been to pass it back out front like he did but then instead of shooting a deep three the shooter should have passed it to the corner for the open three. We have been adept at making that extra permitter pass.
looks like JFG beat me to it.
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Chad Fleck
- Eureka, IL
Dain has been much quicker with his moves in this postseason run. Which is part of why I think he's been successful.
JFGsCoffeeMug
BU:1 Trash cans:0
- Chicago
Despite the occasional comment about BU not making adjustments, I think we've been a pretty darn good second half team in many games this year. Our coaching staff has shown that they can use the first half of games to gather data and then find something to exploit in the second half to overcome a deficit or build a lead. I've been impressed.
So if ISU can build a big lead in the first half (20+), I could see them riding that to victory. It probably means that they've found a way to neutralize everything we've tried to throw at them offensively. Their defense has beaten our offense. But if the game is close at half or we have a lead, I really like our chances to close it out against them. I've heard some people refer to our team as an avalanche. Yeah, that sounds about right. Once we gain some momentum, we're pretty hard to stop.
So if ISU can build a big lead in the first half (20+), I could see them riding that to victory. It probably means that they've found a way to neutralize everything we've tried to throw at them offensively. Their defense has beaten our offense. But if the game is close at half or we have a lead, I really like our chances to close it out against them. I've heard some people refer to our team as an avalanche. Yeah, that sounds about right. Once we gain some momentum, we're pretty hard to stop.
Goode is getting healthier and healthier and his numbers show it the last 5 games. I would not be surprised to see 12-15 points from him this game. We just have so may weapons, I can't see how they can stay with us for 40 minutes. It they want to run around like crazy trying to trap and run us off the line, we can patiently wait and welcome them to the Dainja zone. Along with our multitude of other ways we score. So Iowa St, buckle up, cause in the second half, when your teams getting tired. You will notice a shift in gears and it will be game over. This is no slight to your team, no team can keep up with us for 40 minutes the way we are playing. When teams are getting tired, we can run them out of the gym. You can't trap that. I will go with Illinois 84 Iowa St 72
How Chicago media (in all its forms) over the years has handled this heavily plays into this. People tend to get fixated wherever Media directs their attention.
Notre Dame traditionally gets heavy coverage by Chicago media – football more so than roundball. (The large Roman Catholic population in Chicagoland is a factor here). Northwestern of course is also heavily covered as (ahem... ‘Chicago’s Big Ten Team (!?). And the Illini for long periods of time have been overlooked by Media even when they have a major sports contest going.
This has shifted a bit in recent times with the Illini getting a good and powerful Chicago radio outlet... and with the Illini roundball fortunes improving in recent years. But Chicago media for generations have been heavily dominated by... the North Side Ball Club... Da Bears... and Notre Dame and Northwestern.
And with the somewhat sketchy dynamic between the Illini and the Chicago Public League back when that was going on... this did not help the Illini in coverage, either. Not a lot of Chicago players for some years prior to Ayo for a good while so Chicago media did not have the local player angle to pick up on.
The Illini have had to rely on alums back living in Chicagoland to carry the Orange torch for much of the time. But as said... that seems to be improving now.
danielb927
Orange Krush Class of 2013
- Rochester, MN
They key to that Iowa state post trap seems to be the primary defender getting really high to force the ballhandler baseline. This cuts off passes towards the middle of the court and provides a brief window of time for the second defender to come over from the weak side and double the ball. Meanwhile, a secondary weakside defender (whoever's guarding the corner guy) has to rotate over and cover the lane against either a big or a cutter.
I know we'll probably look to space things out and have our weakside corner person elevate to look for a kickout/skip. But Iowa State is probably okay with allowing that and trying to pick it off in the middle.
One thing I'd be interested to see is use of a back screen in this situation. I'll try to describe what I mean.
Say you've got MD in iso trying to start some bootyball action on the right side after a handoff. That'd leave the hander-offer (say, TSJ) up top, 2 more perimeter shooters (CoHawk weakside wing, Quincy/Harmon/Goode in the corner), and someone (Ty/Dain) on the weakside block.
As soon as Marcus starts to post up, Ty/Dain's man is going to come over to double, and Quincy/Harmon/Goode's man will rotate over.
Instead of letting the rotation happen, have Ty/Dain turn around and set a backdoor screen. Marcus's man will be playing high, the double will still be in transit, and if you can execute, you'll have QG or someone emerging into an open lane.
From what I've seen, Iowa State covers the paint at all costs - so TSJ or CoHawk's defender would probably slide down to try to cut this off. In that case, you've got secondary actions. If the pass to QG isn't there at all, Marcus should still have a better angle to kick it out to TSJ or CoHawk instead of having to look for a skip to the corner. If the pass does get to QG, but he's covered too quickly to shoot, he has those same kickout options OR can try to drop it off to Ty/Dain, who has lots of options.
Thoughts from anyone who actually knows ball? Is this dumb, obvious, neither?
I know we'll probably look to space things out and have our weakside corner person elevate to look for a kickout/skip. But Iowa State is probably okay with allowing that and trying to pick it off in the middle.
One thing I'd be interested to see is use of a back screen in this situation. I'll try to describe what I mean.
Say you've got MD in iso trying to start some bootyball action on the right side after a handoff. That'd leave the hander-offer (say, TSJ) up top, 2 more perimeter shooters (CoHawk weakside wing, Quincy/Harmon/Goode in the corner), and someone (Ty/Dain) on the weakside block.
As soon as Marcus starts to post up, Ty/Dain's man is going to come over to double, and Quincy/Harmon/Goode's man will rotate over.
Instead of letting the rotation happen, have Ty/Dain turn around and set a backdoor screen. Marcus's man will be playing high, the double will still be in transit, and if you can execute, you'll have QG or someone emerging into an open lane.
From what I've seen, Iowa State covers the paint at all costs - so TSJ or CoHawk's defender would probably slide down to try to cut this off. In that case, you've got secondary actions. If the pass to QG isn't there at all, Marcus should still have a better angle to kick it out to TSJ or CoHawk instead of having to look for a skip to the corner. If the pass does get to QG, but he's covered too quickly to shoot, he has those same kickout options OR can try to drop it off to Ty/Dain, who has lots of options.
Thoughts from anyone who actually knows ball? Is this dumb, obvious, neither?
Dan
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He's a 3 in their offense, as they usually have two of King/R. Jones/Ward out there. He'll play the stretch 4 occasionally when all three of Lipsey/Gilbert/C. Jones are on the court, but I wouldn't say it is too often that those three Guards and Momcilovic are on the court, although depends on the matchup.
This is Hawkins #1 turnover case.
Oh they may be, my experience is that my son was going into Engineering. We went to both Iowa and ISU on the same college visiting trip, and when I mentioned this to one of the Engineering greeters in the ISU Union, she said "oh then we've got it" or words to that effect.
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