Economics of AAU and Shoe Companies in Recruiting

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#1      

Epsilon

Epsilon
M tipping over
Pdx
Epsilon
The purpose of this thread is to discuss the economics of AAU ball and Shoe Companies, as it pertains to recruiting. I've seen a number of references / posts about recruits and AAU coaches staying loyal to a shoe brand, such that the recruit will only go to a school sponsored by that shoe brand, and that AAU coaches will try to steer recruits as such. This seems to be conventional wisdom, but of course, no one has presented any proof to date. Some coaches (like even Rick Pitino) have even commented on it, like in these articles.

http://www.courier-journal.com/stor...pitino-louisville-basketball-update/16972059/

http://www.courier-journal.com/videos/sports/college/basketball/louisville/2016/06/02/85296244/

So, part of the purpose of this thread is to discuss shoe company sponsorships of AAU programs, how AAU programs are funded in general, and how any of this bleeds over into recruiting. There just seems to be a disconnect, in my mind, between the level of incentive to actively steer anyone anyplace. It is easy to assume the worst, that actual cash changes hands, but why would a shoe company even care about college hoops recruits...? Okay, your turn...
 
#2      

Epsilon

Epsilon
M tipping over
Pdx
Epsilon
There were some great posts in the recruiting thread but I don't know how to link (or move) those. And I don't want to steal anyone's thunder, so feel free to copy or move those over here, if you like! :)
 
#4      

Adnarel

A
Adnarel
Here to learn things. Hopefully a few of our posters are acquainted with this side of things.
 
#5      

Orange

Orange
Orange
the shoe companies will find this thread
 
#6      

Epsilon

Epsilon
M tipping over
Pdx
Epsilon
Orange said:
the shoe companies will find this thread
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Haha - they might. If the thread actually trends it would be almost criminal of them to miss it! ;)

But there are less than 50 views as of now, so I'm not too worried about big brother. :D
 
#8      

FiveStar

F
FiveStar
Im not saying this is what happens all the time, but some of it is what I've seen as a high school coach and some of it is how I filled in the gaps with what makes sense to me.

1) Aau program works to get shoe company sponsorship to alleviate costs paid by players and coaches

2) in exchange for sponsorship aau program agrees to prioritize schools contracted by shoe company (they're all partners now in a twisted way)
a) shoe companies want deals with the best teams so those teams will be on TV and in the spotlight a lot more, therefore advertising for the shoe company
b) aau programs sending their players to shoe brand schools keeps those schools good, and on TV, again advertising for the shoe company
c) those good players, who then make it to the nba, are already familiar with the shoe company and its reps
--that player signs with said shoe company
--being an NBA player brings the advertising from the game back to the shoe company when said players are on TV

3) because those players are generally loyal to their aau programs, they go back and do camps with their programs or donate shoe company gear, thus strengthening the cycle.
 
#9      

GameOfThrows

G
GameOfThrows
I just assumed the shoe companies controlled the AAU circuit and summer camps which pays grown adults who want to be "coaches" and it behooves those "coaches" to steer kids toward the very shoe companies that pay their salaries and/or benefits.

Am I wrong? This is what it looks like from the outside anyway.

AAU has not helped develop basketball players to improve in the context of playing winning team basketball. AAU encourages individual skill development so that each player if talented enough can become the next superstar and thus become marketable for said shoe companies.
 
#10      

Epsilon

Epsilon
M tipping over
Pdx
Epsilon
FiveStar said:
Im not saying this is what happens all the time, but some of it is what I've seen as a high school coach and some of it is how I filled in the gaps with what makes sense to me.

1) Aau program works to get shoe company sponsorship to alleviate costs paid by players and coaches

2) in exchange for sponsorship aau program agrees to prioritize schools contracted by shoe company (they're all partners now in a twisted way)
a) shoe companies want deals with the best teams so those teams will be on TV and in the spotlight a lot more, therefore advertising for the shoe company
b) aau programs sending their players to shoe brand schools keeps those schools good, and on TV, again advertising for the shoe company
c) those good players, who then make it to the nba, are already familiar with the shoe company and its reps
--that player signs with said shoe company
--being an NBA player brings the advertising from the game back to the shoe company when said players are on TV

3) because those players are generally loyal to their aau programs, they go back and do camps with their programs or donate shoe company gear, thus strengthening the cycle.
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Thanks for posting 5S!

Here is the part I don't get, though. Assuming all the shoe companies do is provide gear and maybe sponsor attendance and fees in a few tournaments, what does an AAU program owe to it other than wear the stuff for people to see and hang some adverts in the gym? Unless I misunderstand the level of support by the shoe companies, this really is chump change to an organization the size of Nike, UA, or Adidas. Plus, many of these organizations provide free money all the time for charitable organizations (not sure if AAU programs are 501c3s), sometimes in not so inconsequential amounts. Why would any AAU organization / coach feel the need to support a shoe company to the extent of steering recruits. Seems like small time thinking to me. I gotta be missing something.
 
#11      

FiveStar

F
FiveStar
Epsilon said:
Thanks for posting 5S!

Here is the part I don't get, though. Assuming all the shoe companies do is provide gear and maybe sponsor attendance and fees in a few tournaments, what does an AAU program owe to it other than wear the stuff for people to see and hang some adverts in the gym? Unless I misunderstand the level of support by the shoe companies, this really is chump change to an organization the size of Nike, UA, or Adidas. Plus, many of these organizations provide free money all the time for charitable organizations (not sure if AAU programs are 501c3s), sometimes in not so inconsequential amounts. Why would any AAU organization / coach feel the need to support a shoe company to the extent of steering recruits. Seems like small time thinking to me. I gotta be missing something.
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Again some of this is stuff I've seen, some is just my speculation. My attempt to fill in the gaps with ideas that make sense to me. I could be wrong on some of this.

You are correct that it's chump change to them. It's a very small investment for potentially huge payoffs down the road when the good players are endorsing and making money for the company. When they keep their colleges and aau programs together all their sponsorship and contract money is going toward the same goal: making more money for the company. Organizational consistency and efficiency.

From the aau perspective, continued sponsorship is worth hundreds or thousands of dollars over short periods of time. Imagine you are the Mac Irvin fire. Based in chicago, you are a high level program that plays tourneys anywhere in the country. Every time you go somewhere you bring your 15u/16u/17u squad with 15 players each. Then you have coaches and other program members. Cross country, round trip flights, hotel rooms, and transpiration in your destination city for 50+ people. Every tournament, every evaluation period, every year. Now imagine your in a corner of the country and how much more that transportation help is potentially worth.

Also, because you have this deal, you're a more competitive team, that really good kids wanna play and try out for. You keep gettin the best of the best. The shoe company stays interested. Lose it and there's a legit chance your organization implodes.
 
#12      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
Professional basketball agents are a key part of the web as well. As are booster networks for various schools. Very little if any of the money comes from coaches or programs themselves, as that's pretty difficult to launder.

It's not usually a ton of money flowing to the players or their parents. It's more about trust and relationships. Kids who trust AAU coaches who trust shoe reps who trust NBA agents who trust college coaches to lock down a kid, develop them, showcase them, and retain their control over the asset. To the extent that takes getting somebody a job or paying an overdue bill or keeping the kid in the freshest new gear, that's a small price to pay for the potential upside of 4% of an NBA contract (for the agent) and adding an NBA guy to your stable of endorsers (for the shoe company).

The occasional kid or his family really has their hand out. Cliff was one of those, and the fact that he was all but committed to Illinois tells you what our capabilities are (though Kansas beating us to the line gives an idea of our limitations), but in general it's about creating a network of trust around the kid in the intimidating, confusing world of college recruiting and college basketball. Doesn't always take money to make that happen, but it certainly doesn't hurt.
 
#13      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
The other thing about AAU sponsorship by shoe companies is that the players for a great AAU team, even if they aren't super likely NBA prospects, are volume customers as well as tastemakers among their friends. Young black kids in urban areas are the ones who make basketball shoes and gear a multibillion dollar industry.

When Mac Irvin Fire kids walk around the hallways at Simeon and Whitney Young and wherever else in their Nike gear, that's very valuable advertising.
 
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#14      

FiveStar

F
FiveStar
Second and Chalmers said:
The other thing about AAU sponsorship by shoe companies is that the players for a great AAU team, even if they aren't super likely NBA prospects, are volume customers as well as tastemakers among their friends. Young black kids in urban areas are the ones who make basketball shoes and gear a multibillion dollar industry.
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Also not unimaginable that a pair of new or highly coveted shoes might just show up to a players house. He then wears them to school and gets attention for himself but free advertising for the shoe company again. Leading into what s&c said.
 
#15      

Epsilon

Epsilon
M tipping over
Pdx
Epsilon
FiveStar, I thought I recalled Rob stating before that the parents generally have to cough up that money. Are "scholarships" to tourneys available only to a select few?
 
#16      

FiveStar

F
FiveStar
Epsilon said:
FiveStar, I thought I recalled Rob stating before that the parents generally have to cough up that money. Are "scholarships" to tourneys available only to a select few?
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I can only speak to my experience. I have a kid who plays fairly decent level aau on the Nike circuit. Not eybl but think Trent Frazier level before he went berserk on eybl. I know for a fact he doesn't pay for anything.
 
#17      

Epsilon

Epsilon
M tipping over
Pdx
Epsilon
FiveStar said:
I can only speak to my experience. I have a kid who plays fairly decent level aau on the Nike circuit. Not eybl but think Trent Frazier level before he went berserk on eybl. I know for a fact he doesn't pay for anything.
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Your discussion has been very enlightening. Thank you for sharing!
 
#20      

618MattD

618MattD
618MattD
My best friend played for one of the top Nike AAU teams when he was in high school. Every year he had to pay around $400 to play on the team which is pretty minimal compared to the actual cost. He also told me that if some of the kids couldn't come up with the money that the coaches would help him try to raise it but it wasn't that big of a deal because Nike was giving this team around $100,000 a year to cover expenses for tourneys, travel, and hotels.

This was before his 17U year and when EYBL was just starting out and was only for the 17U level. When he was on the 17U team he didn't have to pay for much of anything if he did at all. All came from Nike. This also did not include all of the shoes, shirts, shorts, socks, back packs, headbands/sleeves, and any other apparel they received. In fact, he got 5 pairs of new Nike shoes along with 3 back packs and that was all just for one year!
 
#21      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
618MattD said:
My best friend played for one of the top Nike AAU teams when he was in high school. Every year he had to pay around $400 to play on the team which is pretty minimal compared to the actual cost. He also told me that if some of the kids couldn't come up with the money that the coaches would help him try to raise it but it wasn't that big of a deal because Nike was giving this team around $100,000 a year to cover expenses for tourneys, travel, and hotels.

This was before his 17U year and when EYBL was just starting out and was only for the 17U level. When he was on the 17U team he didn't have to pay for much of anything if he did at all. All came from Nike. This also did not include all of the shoes, shirts, shorts, socks, back packs, headbands/sleeves, and any other apparel they received. In fact, he got 5 pairs of new Nike shoes along with 3 back packs and that was all just for one year!
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And that program will have a Nike rep in the community who becomes an influential figure with the AAU program and with the individual kids. Develop that brand loyalty. And as someone connected to the national basketball scene and who knows coaches, agents, players who have made it, etc, that will naturally be someone the kids, the AAU coaches, and the parents look to for guidance in navigating the recruiting scene. Nike schools will float to the top of those lists.

Those shoe reps in turn are free to take money from whoever they want. Agents, college boosters, whoever. Everyone in the system is building a network of influence.

And remember, college coaches themselves are very carefully circumscribed in the time and ways they can be in communication with these kids and their families, plus they can't use money at all. They can't build relationships as strong as these outside parties can, and do. And who can blame these kids and parents, not only for accepting gifts and trips and attention, but more generally for relying on advice from people who are deeply connected in the national basketball scene. Going through the recruiting process alone when you have no experience with it at all and there are genuine experts (biased experts with an agenda, but experts nonetheless) beating down your door to help you would be stupid.
 
#22      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
Speaking of the economics, people were a bit confused about our new Nike deal suddenly quadrupling the amount of gear we get, in lieu of cash.

Well, that's a bit like quadrupling the amount of cigarettes you've got in prison. Shoes and gear are currency in this economy. Not only will we be adding to the swag our players get for being on the team, not just in game uniforms but all sorts of Nike goodies to wear around campus, don't be the least bit surprised to see that gear end up on the backs and feet of recruits we want. We can't just give it to them, and they can't afford to buy it, but we can certainly send a care package to a donor who knows the AAU coach. Or we can order some new stuff from a Nike rep which never actually arrives in Champaign.

This is all part of the "gray area" people always talk about. If you're at a major school like Illinois, or even moreso a Kentucky or Kansas, this stuff is going on all over the place whether the coach wants it to or not. The question is how much is the coach going to act as a conduit to leverage this system in his team's favor, and how much has he developed the relationships in order to make those connections?

Bruce Weber genuinely hated these people and their influence over his kids, who he believed should listen to their parents, their high school coach until graduation, then their college coach thereafter, and absolutely no one else. It wasn't just about "clean" or "dirty" with him, this was the crusade of a man out of step with his times. Guenther, naturally, loved him for it. We had outside people in the ears and the pockets of our players all the time in that era (Weber would complain about it publicly, which was an interesting move, remember when he spent Demetri McCamey's whole senior year bemoaning how he was being influenced by NBA agents?), but not without a fight, and thus less so than most others.

Groce gets it. How well he's able to play the system, the strength of Illinois' integration into the system, and the institution's tolerance for risk in these matters are all significant variables, but Groce gets it.
 
#23      

Hoppy2105

H
Little Rock, Arkansas
Hoppy2105
Second and Chalmers said:
Speaking of the economics, people were a bit confused about our new Nike deal suddenly quadrupling the amount of gear we get, in lieu of cash.

Well, that's a bit like quadrupling the amount of cigarettes you've got in prison. Shoes and gear are currency in this economy. Not only will we be adding to the swag our players get for being on the team, not just in game uniforms but all sorts of Nike goodies to wear around campus, don't be the least bit surprised to see that gear end up on the backs and feet of recruits we want. We can't just give it to them, and they can't afford to buy it, but we can certainly send a care package to a donor who knows the AAU coach. Or we can order some new stuff from a Nike rep which never actually arrives in Champaign.

This is all part of the "gray area" people always talk about. If you're at a major school like Illinois, or even moreso a Kentucky or Kansas, this stuff is going on all over the place whether the coach wants it to or not. The question is how much is the coach going to act as a conduit to leverage this system in his team's favor, and how much has he developed the relationships in order to make those connections?

Bruce Weber genuinely hated these people and their influence over his kids, who he believed should listen to their parents, their high school coach until graduation, then their college coach thereafter, and absolutely no one else. It wasn't just about "clean" or "dirty" with him, this was the crusade of a man out of step with his times. Guenther, naturally, loved him for it. We had outside people in the ears and the pockets of our players all the time in that era (Weber would complain about it publicly, which was an interesting move, remember when he spent Demetri McCamey's whole senior year bemoaning how he was being influenced by NBA agents?), but not without a fight, and thus less so than most others.

Groce gets it. How well he's able to play the system, the strength of Illinois' integration into the system, and the institution's tolerance for risk in these matters are all significant variables, but Groce gets it.
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Maybe then it is no coincidence that recruiting seems to have picked up (with Tilmon at least) as soon as we started coming to the table with a better hand. Which, in my mind, means Whitman gets it as well. And if Whitman knows Groce gets it, and they are on the same page with how they want basketball recruiting to go, that could be a reason why Whitman came out in full support of Groce even through the off court issues.
 
#24      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
Hoppy2105 said:
Maybe then it is no coincidence that recruiting seems to have picked up (with Tilmon at least) as soon as we started coming to the table with a better hand. Which, in my mind, means Whitman gets it as well. And if Whitman knows Groce gets it, and they are on the same page with how they want basketball recruiting to go, that could be a reason why Whitman came out in full support of Groce even through the off court issues.
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Illinois' recruiting has been very steady for a number of years now, dating back to the Paul/Richardson class (Weber may have hated the modern recruiting system, but Snacks didn't, nor did Jay Price, and as I said, that network exists whether the coach wants it to or not). We have long had and will continue to have the talent to win.

But yeah, Whitman played in the NFL. He understands the world talented young athletes live in as well.

I very strenuously doubt Groce would survive another miss of the Tournament (guys who "get it" as I said are not in short supply anymore. Good tactical coaches aren't either. Getting both in the same person can be tricky.), but 1. we'll see and 2. here's hoping we don't have to find out.
 
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