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Old Feb 14, 2017, 11:17 PM   #5576
cam
Posts: 165
No matter who the coach is I like that Lucas and Frazier will be able to break down a defense and either score or dish off and I like that Tillmon should be a shot blocking presence which should help the defense
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Old Feb 14, 2017, 11:38 PM   #5577
LurkLongandProsper
Location: C-U
Posts: 2,077
I don't respect Jeff Goodman much at all, but he sure is adamant on Twitter that Archie to NC State isn't going to happen
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Old Feb 15, 2017, 12:11 AM   #5578
helppitch
Posts: 909
Quote:
Originally Posted by LurkLongandProsper View Post
I don't respect Jeff Goodman much at all, but he sure is adamant on Twitter that Archie to NC State isn't going to happen
Archie has turned down several good jobs in the past & seems to be quite content at Dayton.
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Old Feb 15, 2017, 12:18 AM   #5579
thunderwear
Posts: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joestan1967 View Post
Groce will coach at Illinois next year. Whitman will not replace him without that perfect replacement hire, that creates excitement around program, like Lovie.
And, does anyone really think that Mont Williams with no connections to ILL is coming here, or Archie Miller or Marshall who have turned down some big school ffers over the years. Maybe, maybe, maybe Cuonzo Martin is long shot with Midwest ties. But really leaving Cal who just supported him with contract thru 2021. Really. Nope, Groce will be with ILL in 2017-2018. Whitman supports him. Likes his recruits. And simply not home run hire. Support Groce. Go ILL.
Joe, I hope you are correct. I think Groce has to go, but the last thing I want is the debacle that led to him being here. Offering a bunch of coaches a lot of money and none of them wanting the job.

When Groce came, we had a talent problem. Although I believe with next year's class, that page is turned. I do believe that we have a scholarships problem. That could be exacerbated with losing future classes as a new coach arrives.

If we losing the incoming class along with next year's class and the potential to recruit for possibly another year with more uncertainty, I believe, would be devastating. Couple that with struggle finding a coach, and the diminished perspective of Illinois basketball, I think that puts us back to where we were roughly when Groce arrived.

I think we have a great class coming in, we are going to lose this year anyway. Let Groce keep the class and begin looking for next year.
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Old Feb 15, 2017, 12:42 AM   #5580
Tevo
Location: Wilmette, IL
Posts: 973
Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderwear View Post
Joe, I hope you are correct. I think Groce has to go, but the last thing I want is the debacle that led to him being here. Offering a bunch of coaches a lot of money and none of them wanting the job.

When Groce came, we had a talent problem. Although I believe with next year's class, that page is turned. I do believe that we have a scholarships problem. That could be exacerbated with losing future classes as a new coach arrives.

If we losing the incoming class along with next year's class and the potential to recruit for possibly another year with more uncertainty, I believe, would be devastating. Couple that with struggle finding a coach, and the diminished perspective of Illinois basketball, I think that puts us back to where we were roughly when Groce arrived.

I think we have a great class coming in, we are going to lose this year anyway. Let Groce keep the class and begin looking for next year.
So you feel that either (a) the incoming class next year will be good enough to make the team MORE appealing to other coaches in 2018, even if they once again go 7-11, 6-12 (or worse) in conference play, or (b) that Groce will suddenly learn how to coach and prove that he should be kept long-term. Is that right?

In response, I (a) haven't heard anyone make a real case for this team being better next year than this year, based solely on the incoming Freshman being better prepared for Big Ten Basketball than the outgoing 4th and 6th-year seniors, and another year of losing just makes this program look even worse. And (b) I can't imagine how Groce would suddenly grow skills in the offseason that he hasn't shown in the past four. He's shown no capacity to change his approach, or try new schemes, or change his coaching staff to make things better.

Last edited by Tevo; Feb 15, 2017 at 12:47 AM.
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Old Feb 15, 2017, 06:21 AM   #5581
IlliniOllie
Posts: 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joestan1967 View Post
Groce will coach at Illinois next year. Whitman will not replace him without that perfect replacement hire, that creates excitement around program, like Lovie.
And, does anyone really think that Mont Williams with no connections to ILL is coming here, or Archie Miller or Marshall who have turned down some big school ffers over the years. Maybe, maybe, maybe Cuonzo Martin is long shot with Midwest ties. But really leaving Cal who just supported him with contract thru 2021. Really. Nope, Groce will be with ILL in 2017-2018. Whitman supports him. Likes his recruits. And simply not home run hire. Support Groce. Go ILL.
If he punts (again) until next year, Whitman won't have to worry about making an exciting hire, because there won't be any fans left to try to excite.
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Old Feb 15, 2017, 07:35 AM   #5582
Golfer63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderwear View Post
Joe, I hope you are correct. I think Groce has to go, but the last thing I want is the debacle that led to him being here. Offering a bunch of coaches a lot of money and none of them wanting the job.

When Groce came, we had a talent problem. Although I believe with next year's class, that page is turned. I do believe that we have a scholarships problem. That could be exacerbated with losing future classes as a new coach arrives.

If we losing the incoming class along with next year's class and the potential to recruit for possibly another year with more uncertainty, I believe, would be devastating. Couple that with struggle finding a coach, and the diminished perspective of Illinois basketball, I think that puts us back to where we were roughly when Groce arrived.

I think we have a great class coming in, we are going to lose this year anyway. Let Groce keep the class and begin looking for next year.
The Illinois job is much more desirable now than it was in 2012. Newly renovated facilities. Well respected AD. Great recruiting class coming in plus solid pieces among your returning players. Another advantage is you have no seniors next year. If a coach can get next year's group to excel, it gives him a huge advantage because he returns that entire team the following year and gives him the opportunity to create some big time momentum to propel the program back into the upper echelons of the game.
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Old Feb 15, 2017, 08:11 AM   #5583
illiniwil
Posts: 183
What have you seen that makes you think coach Groce can win with any combination of players he's had or will have? He's continued to under perform with players that are at the very least +50% big ten record caliber. Coach is a great guy and I really wish it would have worked out but Whitman can see this and will make a move this year. There are no apologies, rationalizations, hoping or planning that will change that just because a few of you like him of feel bad for him. If we lose an entire recruiting class (which we wont) that's what will have to happen.

good bye coach, good luck in your future.
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Old Feb 15, 2017, 08:13 AM   #5584
ChrisNMattoon
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As Dave Wischnowsky mentioned to me yesterday on Twitter, you have to fire him or extend him. He can't recruit without an extension. It's beyond me how we don't fire Groce but the more you see Whitman interact with him, the more you have to think that he's looking for any possible way to keep him. Using the "I couldn't find anyone better" excuse seems to fit here, and we'll never know if thats even accurate. I can tell you that if Whitman chooses to keep him, I will lose a lot of trust in Whitman. His "WE WILL WIN" slogan will fall on deaf ears. Also, did anyone see all the recruits talking yesterday on twitter? Being very vague, seemed odd
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Old Feb 15, 2017, 08:30 AM   #5585
FollowTisdale
Posts: 117
Where did this "he might get another year" stuff come from, officially? Where did the rumor start? I'm terrible at trying to navigate twitter.

Because whoever started it is a dummy, or related to Groce. He's gone, and there's not point in even debating it. There are 10s of coaches who Illinois could get very easily who would be a better coach than Groce. Unless Whitman is picking names out of a hat, it will be hard to get a coach worse than what Groce has done in his time here.

I'd rather have Finke's dad coach next year than Groce
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Old Feb 15, 2017, 08:40 AM   #5586
ChrisNMattoon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FollowTisdale View Post
Where did this "he might get another year" stuff come from, officially? Where did the rumor start? I'm terrible at trying to navigate twitter.

Because whoever started it is a dummy, or related to Groce. He's gone, and there's not point in even debating it. There are 10s of coaches who Illinois could get very easily who would be a better coach than Groce. Unless Whitman is picking names out of a hat, it will be hard to get a coach worse than what Groce has done in his time here.

I'd rather have Finke's dad coach next year than Groce

Jeff Johnson...

Last edited by ChrisNMattoon; Feb 15, 2017 at 08:46 AM. Reason: I was incorrect in previous post. Named wrong person
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Old Feb 15, 2017, 08:53 AM   #5587
FollowTisdale
Posts: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisNMattoon View Post
Jeff Johnson...
So it really is grasping at straws. Gotcha, thanks.

Whitman's done nothing in his (very brief) career that says he'll do something as stupid as retain Groce (which means 2 year extension) for next year because he can't find that "home run" hire. It's just nonsense, worse than assuming Hoidberg is going to step down in April and take the job.
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Old Feb 15, 2017, 09:17 AM   #5588
Whitman2020
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cam View Post
No matter who the coach is I like that Lucas and Frazier will be able to break down a defense and either score or dish off and I like that Tillmon should be a shot blocking presence which should help the defense
Yeah I mean without Tracy or Tate even able to suit up, it kind of forces the hand, right?
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Old Feb 15, 2017, 09:21 AM   #5589
TCTORNADO
Posts: 9,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedRocksIllini View Post
Are you close enough that you can just lob Baby Ruths into the pool?
There is somebody on here that takes care of Groce's pool.
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Old Feb 15, 2017, 09:34 AM   #5590
BlindLoyalty
Location: OX1 2JD
Posts: 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by LurkLongandProsper View Post
Just out of curiosity, Whitman is obviously respected by ILLINOIS people, does he really have a reputation other than 'unknown' outside of our following? Keep hearing people refer to working for him as a 'plus' in this search, but he's been at the D1 level for under a year, does he really have enough of a reputation that these coaching candidates would even know his name before it shows up on their caller ID? I just don't see how we can consider him as a pro/plus in this search in terms of our job appeal.
It has been suggested to me that some of the names mentioned throughout this thread as prospective hires perceive Whitman as a "football guy" based on his background, experience and priorities at Illinois. A few of the names would only leave their current positions for a University that is a "basketball school" where the basketball program is the unquestioned #1 priority for the university, athletic department, AD, fans and donors. Illinois is not perceived that way by a few of the names mentioned.
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Old Feb 15, 2017, 09:39 AM   #5591
FeelTheLovie
Location: Louisville, KY
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Originally Posted by BlindLoyalty View Post
It has been suggested to me that some of the names mentioned throughout this thread as prospective hires perceive Whitman as a "football guy" based on his background, experience and priorities at Illinois. A few of the names would only leave their current positions for a University that is a "basketball school" where the basketball program is the unquestioned #1 priority for the university, athletic department, AD, fans and donors. Illinois is not perceived that way by a few of the names mentioned.
Boy is it weird to think about Illinois that way, but hopefully 5 years from now this is a much more positive sentiment if Lovie can compete in the B1G. Although if this is in fact the reality of the situation, it seems like Keatts could still be a possibility. As it has been previously discussed, he isn't necessarily regarded as a big splash or someone who is in line for a power 5 program next season.
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Old Feb 15, 2017, 09:43 AM   #5592
ChiefIllini
Posts: 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by LurkLongandProsper View Post
Just out of curiosity, Whitman is obviously respected by ILLINOIS people, does he really have a reputation other than 'unknown' outside of our following? Keep hearing people refer to working for him as a 'plus' in this search, but he's been at the D1 level for under a year, does he really have enough of a reputation that these coaching candidates would even know his name before it shows up on their caller ID? I just don't see how we can consider him as a pro/plus in this search in terms of our job appeal.
I think the general thought is he's presents himself as a boss you'd want to work for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FollowTisdale View Post
And why would Groce's family go around saying "nah it's fine he's got another year"? Either his wife said something like "we don't want to move, hope he'll be here next year" or more likely, didn't say a single thing and someone is making it all up.
Exactly, its not like someone close is going to say they are a few weeks from listing his home. At the very least this has been drawn out from someone asking the question if he's fired to a family member and that response being drawn out into something like "John is going to be working here for a long time." Stupid question to ask, there isn't a single person connected to either Groce or the athletics program that wouldn't say something that could be twisted into a possibility of him returning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by illiniwil View Post
What have you seen that makes you think coach Groce can win with any combination of players he's had or will have? He's continued to under perform with players that are at the very least +50% big ten record caliber. Coach is a great guy and I really wish it would have worked out but Whitman can see this and will make a move this year. There are no apologies, rationalizations, hoping or planning that will change that just because a few of you like him of feel bad for him. If we lose an entire recruiting class (which we wont) that's what will have to happen.

good bye coach, good luck in your future.
This is exactly why theres not reason to keep him. Right now, we have RSCI guys ranked: 70,69,46,37, and 78. Not to mention those who are contributing like Morgan, Lucas, and Kipper who aren't even top 100 RSCI guys. Tilmon is the only guy coming in who's got a RSCI rank (25). There's either a talent eval problem, in which case why would this class be any different, or a talent development problem, which isnt going to fix itself over night. SSDD.
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Old Feb 15, 2017, 09:49 AM   #5593
FollowTisdale
Posts: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindLoyalty View Post
It has been suggested to me that some of the names mentioned throughout this thread as prospective hires perceive Whitman as a "football guy" based on his background, experience and priorities at Illinois. A few of the names would only leave their current positions for a University that is a "basketball school" where the basketball program is the unquestioned #1 priority for the university, athletic department, AD, fans and donors. Illinois is not perceived that way by a few of the names mentioned.
This can't be true either. We just sunk $160MM+ into the basketball stadium with a rumored practice facility on the horizon. Every AD should take care of football first, because that's the main sport funding the rest of your department.

Any intelligent potential coach can see that there's a huge monetary and fan focused investment in the basketball program here. I wouldn't want to work with an AD who's going to punt on the football program to only focus on being a "basketball school", because that's an AD who won't be my boss for very long.
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Old Feb 15, 2017, 09:56 AM   #5594
LurkLongandProsper
Location: C-U
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLovie View Post
Boy is it weird to think about Illinois that way, but hopefully 5 years from now this is a much more positive sentiment if Lovie can compete in the B1G. Although if this is in fact the reality of the situation, it seems like Keatts could still be a possibility. As it has been previously discussed, he isn't necessarily regarded as a big splash or someone who is in line for a power 5 program next season.
Keatts will be moving up after this season, to Illinois or elsewhere, there's enough openings on the East Coast that he will certainly be finding a new home with that resume, IMO
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Old Feb 15, 2017, 09:56 AM   #5595
Obelix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LurkLongandProsper View Post
Just out of curiosity, Whitman is obviously respected by ILLINOIS people, does he really have a reputation other than 'unknown' outside of our following? Keep hearing people refer to working for him as a 'plus' in this search, but he's been at the D1 level for under a year, does he really have enough of a reputation that these coaching candidates would even know his name before it shows up on their caller ID? I just don't see how we can consider him as a pro/plus in this search in terms of our job appeal.
We hired a good, promising, young AD with strong ties to our program. But we did not hire agent 007. Posters often exaggerate what Whitman can do, frequently referring to completing the job search before we even begin. There are even posts that mention that he has already secured Cuonzo. None of it is true, even if Cuonzo ends up the candidate. If schools could secure coaches before firing a coach, many other schools would have done it.

Same is true with Colangelo. Every time Illinois conducts a coaching search, there will be frequent posts that mention that Colangelo is pulling the strings and is heavily involved. I worked with many people in the AD in the past, and still know quite a few in the current AD (although many less than in previous administrations), and while Colangelo has often been consulted, he has never been the one pulling the strings. Same with Khan. Yet, their names always appear on coaching searches on message boards, because it makes for "feel good" rumors, similar to the many "feel good" rumors about recruits.

Same with Fletcher, he is doing a really good job, but if you read Illini message boards, you'd think that we have discovered the fountain of youth and the Illini team has transformed itself as the king of athleticism and strength in the entire college basketball world.

Many exaggerations and unfair expectations for Whitman, yet I think Whitman will do an excellent job. But he is no magician.
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Old Feb 15, 2017, 10:06 AM   #5596
OWWDig
Posts: 159
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Originally Posted by Tevo View Post
(b) I can't imagine how Groce would suddenly grow skills in the offseason that he hasn't shown in the past four. He's shown no capacity to change his approach, or try new schemes, or change his coaching staff to make things better.
This. And more often than not, he looks confused by what is happening - almost paralyzed by it and unable to change/adjust...look no further than the fact that here we are, 75% of the season done, and the rotations are still a mess unlike I've ever seen in college hoops. It's ridiculous.
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Old Feb 15, 2017, 10:21 AM   #5597
TCTORNADO
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Originally Posted by OWWDig View Post
This. And more often than not, he looks confused by what is happening - almost paralyzed by it and unable to change/adjust...look no further than the fact that here we are, 75% of the season done, and the rotations are still a mess unlike I've ever seen in college hoops. It's ridiculous.
Groce has used 9 different starting lineups this year.
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Old Feb 15, 2017, 10:23 AM   #5598
Obelix
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Originally Posted by TCTORNADO View Post
Groce has used 9 different starting lineups this year.
Question is whether he has used his 9 lives yet.
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Old Feb 15, 2017, 10:40 AM   #5599
Tygor
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Originally Posted by TCTORNADO View Post
Groce has used 9 different starting lineups this year.
Without injury issues that plagues other programs.
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Old Feb 15, 2017, 10:57 AM   #5600
BananaShampoo
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Originally Posted by TCTORNADO View Post
Groce has used 9 different starting lineups this year.
Part of the reason for his downfall. Groce seems to take far too long to settle on an ideal starting lineup and ideal rotations during the course of seasons and so his teams have never had the chance to develop an ideal chemistry or identity. We talk about his teams having no identity because of his system, but players playing together and learning the nuances of each others game is just as important. One reason the 04-05 team was so good was that all of those starters had almost two full seasons to develop together in what was a mostly unchanged starting lineup for two full seasons.

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