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NCAA could not conclude academic violations in North Carolina case

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Old Aug 1, 2017, 05:12 PM   #26
JFGsCoffeeMug
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I haven't followed the UNC saga as closely as some on here, but it seems intellectually dishonest to cast the scandal as a purely academic issue falling outside the NCAA's control. To the extent athletes knowingly utilized sham classes to maintain eligibility under NCAA guidelines, the NCAA has grounds to address the misconduct. To the extent UNC faculty funnelled athletes into those classes, the university becomes culpable as well. Purely academic issues might be out of bounds for the NCAA, but issues cease being purely academic at the points where athletics intersect. My 2 cents.

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Old Aug 1, 2017, 05:56 PM   #27
Illini Resurgence
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Um....according to UNC, this had nothing to do with athletics. Rather, it was a part of the standard UNC college experience. As long as they wish to maintain that perspective, I'm going to maintain mine.
I have a degree from UNC. Never even heard of these classes while I was there. Hopefully I will not get fired by my employer.
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Old Aug 1, 2017, 06:37 PM   #28
afpharmdawg
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To say that academics is not under NCAA purview is wrong. In order to be an athlete one has to maintain a GPA. If someone took a class that is a sham to increase their GPA then the NCAA has every right to do their due diligence and punish the university.

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Old Aug 1, 2017, 08:42 PM   #29
grue
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Originally Posted by afpharmdawg View Post
To say that academics is not under NCAA purview is wrong. In order to be an athlete one has to maintain a GPA. If someone took a class that is a sham to increase their GPA then the NCAA has every right to do their due diligence and punish the university.
Focusing on the classes sounds like the basis of a fine plan, and within the NCAA's scope.

An athlete was inelligible if, when you discout the bogus classes:
* Their GPA was below the required level, or
* They were not taking enough classes to be eligible.

If any of the athletes become inelligible, treat any game/meet they participated in the same as you would any other game/meet with an inelligible player.

Then give them the death penalty for lack of institutional control. If an instituion was in control, they would not need to forfeit (near 100% I'm guessing) of their games for the last decade
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Old Aug 1, 2017, 08:49 PM   #30
PlayAZ
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Originally Posted by afpharmdawg View Post
To say that academics is not under NCAA purview is wrong. In order to be an athlete one has to maintain a GPA. If someone took a class that is a sham to increase their GPA then the NCAA has every right to do their due diligence and punish the university.
Or how about the fact that Academically, ANY player must qualify to even get into said college....if that isn't the very definition of why the NCAA has the right to review and punish, I don't know moving forward why the whole sham isn't condemned and treated as if professional.

That is really what it is anyway already.
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Old Aug 2, 2017, 07:31 AM   #31
Ransom Stoddard
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That is not true. If they don't regulate academics, then why did they strip Memphis' wins for Derrick Rose cheating on his ACT exam. What did they penalize the University of Minnesota for? Why did Notre Dame football have to vacate wins during the 2012-2013 season?

Aren't those academic issues?
Those are eligibility issues.

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Old Aug 2, 2017, 08:10 AM   #32
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I think the arguments here are good ones.

Ultimately, I don't see any of it mattering much. The NCAA exists to maximize profits to its member institutions. Cheating is becoming more acceptable, and cheating at the top is probably the norm, at least if you think as I do, that the number of scandals is probably just the tip of an iceberg.

So what will happen? I don't know. I see a few factors at play here:

1. The threat to the NCAA as a body. When a referee feels threatened, they often overreact. It wouldn't surprise me if the NCAA uses their power because the bureaucracy feels threatened.
2. Entrenchment. Neither side has backed down, and that's what the NCAA is for --to settle disputes. The NCAA probably needs to move towards a sports governance model, but they already have a history of going after academic issues that result in benefits to athletes. Given their involvement, I don't see how they can back out gracefully.
3. The facts of the case. To a certain extent, they're going to have to deal with the facts. When the stakes are high, it can go to court, where everyone loses $ fighting and paying lawyers.

As someone who doesn't know the NCAA rules in any detail, I see this more as a power struggle than anything else. There's always a balancing act between powerhouse schools not wanting interference, and less competitive programs needing a more level playing field. The NCAA represents a lot of institutions, and more broadly, the business model of college sports.

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Old Aug 2, 2017, 04:37 PM   #33
alaskaillini
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Finding the UNC football team guilty will not be hard. The athletic advisors put incoming freshmen into these classes in summer school, and the class did not meet.
Getting the basketball team will be more difficult I think.
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Old Aug 3, 2017, 08:07 AM   #34
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(For lack of a good place to post this....)

Never fear, Mike Thomas is in control.

http://csuvikings.com/general/2017-1...dy2c6a?src=rss
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Old Aug 3, 2017, 09:27 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Ransom Stoddard View Post
Those are eligibility issues.
*Academic* eligibility issue

Schools have gotten into trouble for changing grades, pressuring teachers, or having tutors write papers to keep players eligible. Why shouldn't programs be penalized for setting up completely bogus classes to keep players eligible?
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Old Aug 3, 2017, 12:08 PM   #36
MakesNoSense
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I just looked up admission applications for UNC, and despite all the scandals, applications are up for the 12th straight year.

That may explain why they're taking the approach that they are --it would seem that no one cares that the athletic dept is cheating.

Makes me wonder what an employer thinks when they see a UNC athletes resume though.
I know I don't and don't know why anyone would.
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Old Aug 4, 2017, 02:05 AM   #37
whovous
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Originally Posted by alaskaillini View Post
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Originally Posted by whovous View Post
The fake AFAM classes date to the early 1990s. The woman responsible for the idea apparently believed the academic system unjustly discriminated against Afro-American students and she wanted to right that wrong. She set out to do so for all AFAM students. The athletics department quickly took advantage, but overall, more non-athletes than athletes took these courses.
Where did you find this info? I think that this is contrary to the Wainstein report.
The woman who started it was a huge basketball fan, and I think dated a former player.
I am pretty sure it was from the Weinstein report. The woman started it on her own. She thought the entire academic system in the US was biased against African-American students. She thought it was biaed against her when she was a student. She wanted to "right" that "wrong" and so she set about to create classes that guaranteed good grades to AFAM students.

Now, if that meant a lot of athletes benefited from her actions, I'm sure she thought that was all the better. But she didn't set out to help the team, she set out to right a perceived wrong.

Last edited by Dan; Aug 8, 2017 at 05:46 PM.
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Old Aug 4, 2017, 02:13 AM   #38
whovous
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Originally Posted by JFGsCoffeeMug View Post
I haven't followed the UNC saga as closely as some on here, but it seems intellectually dishonest to cast the scandal as a purely academic issue falling outside the NCAA's control. To the extent athletes knowingly utilized sham classes to maintain eligibility under NCAA guidelines, the NCAA has grounds to address the misconduct. To the extent UNC faculty funnelled athletes into those classes, the university becomes culpable as well. Purely academic issues might be out of bounds for the NCAA, but issues cease being purely academic at the points where athletics intersect. My 2 cents.
The NCAA was created by its members. Those members created the constitution of the NCAA. That constitution is the sole source of the powers of the NCAA. Nothing in that constitution allows the NCAA to state "This is a good class and this is a bad class." Schools have academic accreditation entities to do that job. UNC got a year of probation from their agency.
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Old Aug 4, 2017, 02:19 AM   #39
whovous
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Originally Posted by WhiteRhino View Post
*Academic* eligibility issue

Schools have gotten into trouble for changing grades, pressuring teachers, or having tutors write papers to keep players eligible. Why shouldn't programs be penalized for setting up completely bogus classes to keep players eligible?
But the whole AFAM mess involved virtually none of these things. They were real classes with real grades open to all real students. They were also impossibly easy, but I don't think anything in the NCAA constitution prohibits offering or taking "cupcake" classes. It is just that this time, a major portion of a school, AFAM, was devoted to the art of the cupcake.

This is an accreditation issue.
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Old Aug 4, 2017, 06:18 AM   #40
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But the whole AFAM mess involved virtually none of these things. They were real classes with real grades open to all real students. They were also impossibly easy, but I don't think anything in the NCAA constitution prohibits offering or taking "cupcake" classes. It is just that this time, a major portion of a school, AFAM, was devoted to the art of the cupcake.

This is an accreditation issue.
Eligibility issues and accreditation issues are not mutually exclusive.
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Old Aug 4, 2017, 09:45 AM   #41
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https://pilotonline.com/sports/colum...6fb2a1e6a.html

I loved the NCAA’s response: “When a member institution allows an academic department to provide benefits to student athletes that are materially different from the general student body, it is the NCAA’s business,” officials wrote.

“When a member institution uses ‘special arrangement’ courses to keep a significant number of student-athletes eligible, it is the NCAA’s business.

”When a member institution provides student-athletes an inside track to enroll in publicized courses where grades of A’s and B’s are the norm, it is the NCAA’s business.

”When a member institution fails or refuses to take action after receiving actual notice of problems involving student-athletes, thereby allowing violations to compound and to continue for years, it is the NCAA’s business.”

Last edited by WhiteRhino; Aug 4, 2017 at 09:48 AM.
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Old Aug 4, 2017, 10:38 AM   #42
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If a D-II school pulled a stunt like that, the NCAA wouldn't be pussyfooting around like the are with UNC.
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Old Aug 4, 2017, 11:11 AM   #43
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If a D-II school pulled a stunt like that, the NCAA wouldn't be pussyfooting around like the are with UNC.
Can you blame them? Well, you can, but logically it makes sense for them to push this further and further down the road until less and less people care/remember it.

A DII school doesn't mean anything to the revenue of NCAA. UNC is a huge chunk of earnings, not to mention a big part of the NCAA's image itself. Stripping UNC of wins/National Championship/s is huge and even compared to us for example this is a major step up.

I want to see UNC heavily punished. But the longer this drags on, the less they will have imposed upon them.
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Old Aug 5, 2017, 01:31 PM   #44
whovous
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Originally Posted by oldman View Post
Eligibility issues and accreditation issues are not mutually exclusive.
Of course they are. Completely exclusive. The NCAA constitution gives it the clearly stated authority to determine athlete eligibility. It states those standards in clear terms in the bylaws. Those bylaws say not a single word about accreditation. The NCAA cannot take accreditation away, and it cannot determine which classes are and are not accredited.

An athlete with the necessary GPA gets to stay.

I'd be happy to see the NCAA crack down on UNC, and I'd be even happier if they could make it stick. But I think once the NCAA starts creating remedies that are in no wise anticipated by its charter and bylaws, it leaves itself wide open to judicial review. I think they are limited to the authorities granted by those documents.
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Old Aug 8, 2017, 11:37 AM   #45
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I have a degree from UNC. Never even heard of these classes while I was there. Hopefully I will not get fired by my employer.
Sorry but you'll need to pack your things and exit immediately.
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Old Aug 8, 2017, 12:31 PM   #46
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Sorry but you'll need to pack your things and exit immediately.
I've the AA studies dept. of UNC is looking to hire a few good men.
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Old Aug 8, 2017, 02:35 PM   #47
Turnlaw
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Originally Posted by whovous
I am pretty sure it was from the Weinstein report. The woman started it on her own. She thought the entire academic system in the US was biased against African-American students. She thought it was biaed against her when she was a student. She wanted to "right" that "wrong" and so she set about to create classes that guaranteed good grades to AFAM students.

Now, if that meant a lot of athletes benefited from her actions, I'm sure she thought that was all the better. But she didn't set out to help the team, she set out to right a perceived wrong.



Here are some quotes from the executive summary of the Wainstein Report, which was commissioned by UNC:
http://www.unc.edu/spotlight/wainste...sses-released/

She [Crowder] believed it was her duty to lend a helping hand to struggling students, and in particular to that subset of student-athletes who came to campus without adequate academic preparation for Chapel Hill’s demanding curriculum.
...
He [Nyang'oro] also shared some of Crowder’s sympathy for struggling students – and in particular for student-athletes.
...
Many of these student-athletes were referred to these classes by academic counselors in the Academic Support Program for Student-Athletes (“ASPSA”) who were always under pressure to maintain student-athlete eligibility and saw these classes – and their artificially high grades – as key to helping academically-challenged student-athletes remain eligible and on the playing field.
...
At the request of ASPSA football counselors, Nyang’oro offered several classes after Crowder’s retirement that followed a similar format and were equally lacking in academic rigor.
...
Crowder felt a strong affinity for student-athletes in particular, and she gave them ready access to these watered-down classes to help them manage their competing athletic and academic time demands.
...
The grades earned in these AFAM paper classes were significantly higher than grades awarded in the regular AFAM classes. The average grade issued to all identified students in the paper classes was 3.62, as compared to an average grade of 3.28 for the regular AFAM classes. That difference was even greater for student-athletes. The average grade given to all student-athletes for the paper classes was 3.55, as compared to an average student-athlete grade of 2.84 for the regular AFAM classes.
...
A good number of these student-athletes were “steered” to the AFAM paper classes by certain academic counselors in ASPSA. This steering was most prevalent among the counselors for the revenue sports of football and men’s basketball. While some of these counselors knew only that these were easy classes, others were fully aware that there was no faculty involvement and that Crowder was managing the whole course and grading the papers. Those counselors saw these paper classes as “GPA boosters” and steered players into them largely in order to help them maintain their GPAs and their eligibility under the NCAA and Chapel Hill eligibility rules. At least two of those counselors went so far as to suggest what grades Crowder should award to their players who were taking her paper classes.


Your statement that Crowder did not set out to help the team seems to be contradicted by some of these conclusions. Regardless of her motivations, however, the conclusions from the Wainstein Report appear to go to the issue of legitimate academic eligibility for student-athletes as much as they do accreditation issues for UNC. I find it hard to believe that the NCAA could not separate the two and still find plenty of ammunition. The question is what size artillery they will use.







Last edited by Dan; Aug 8, 2017 at 05:48 PM.
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Old Aug 8, 2017, 03:09 PM   #48
FiveStar
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Originally Posted by Turnlaw


The average grade given to all student-athletes for the paper classes was 3.55, as compared to an average student-athlete grade of 2.84 for the regular AFAM classes.
This part here. Wow.
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Old Aug 9, 2017, 12:01 AM   #49
alaskaillini
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Turnlaw, thanks for that. I had read some of that when the issue first arose, but I was too buzy to go back and look for it. The class that Nyang'oro created and for which he was charged for fraud (in relation to his taking pay for a non-existent course) was set up for summer school and taken by incoming football players - that is going to be a tough one to dodge for UNC.
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Old Aug 9, 2017, 06:46 AM   #50
Calvin
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Turnlaw, thanks for that.
+1

I am not a lawyer, but it does appear like UNC is in trouble bucking the NCAA on this. If the NCAA has standards in terms of GPA, etc., to be eligible, then it would follow that they can have sanctions for fraudulent classes that attempt to skirt those rules.

Is that line of thinking a huge can of worms? Yes. But has that ever stopped them? No.
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