Grade school shooting in Connecticut

[Mix Tape]

Originally Posted by Sure Shot

Well, let me get everyone mad at me:

I see things like this and it makes me hopeful. Hopeful that there might come a day when those Americans who so cherish their constitutionally-mandated ability to keep and bear arms nonetheless line up to get rid of their guns, fed up at last with the pervasive, random, culturally destructive power of firearms.

Well meaning granola-chewing liberals with buttons and placards can never convince these people, government will have to make good on Charlton Heston's "cold dead hands" taunt to end the problem by state action. It must come from within.

Someday.

Evil exists and it will not be legislated away.

[Sure Shot]

Originally Posted by mattcoldagelli

All 300,000,000 of the legally owned ones?

It's just not even remotely feasible.

It certainly isn't feasible now. It might not be for as long as I live. But someday.

[DaytonIllini]

Today's not the day to debate politics about gun control IMO. Just an awful day and emotions are too raw.

[pizzaman]

Originally Posted by Mix Tape

Evil exists and it will not be legislated away.

I agree. I'm not much of a gun nut despite my rural lifestyle. This kind of action takes a very disturbed mind. I just don't believe that there are many humans that could be so evil as to choose to go down murdering innocent people. What I've heard (radio) is that the shooter acquired the guns legally. I don't know if any were automatic weapons or had the capacity to fire a high number of shots without reloading. I am in favor of banning automatic guns (for those who get into the specific definition, an automatic weapon is anything that can fire more than 6 shots without reloading IMO. Call it whatever you want.)

[mattcoldagelli]

Originally Posted by pizzaman

I agree. I'm not much of a gun nut despite my rural lifestyle. This kind of action takes a very disturbed mind. I just don't believe that there are many humans that could be so evil as to choose to go down murdering innocent people. What I've heard (radio) is that the shooter acquired the guns legally. I don't know if any were automatic weapons or had the capacity to fire a high number of shots without reloading. I am in favor of banning automatic guns (for those who get into the specific definition, an automatic weapon is anything that can fire more than 6 shots without reloading IMO. Call it whatever you want.)

I think they were registered to one of his parents. So legally obtained, but not by the person that used them.

[Sure Shot]

Originally Posted by DaytonIllini

Today's not the day to debate politics about gun control IMO. Just an awful day and emotions are too raw.

Well yeah, obviously hearts are heavy and that isn't condusive to fruitful debate. And JFWIW, I'm not really talking about politics or "gun control". Those are the sorts of hobby-horses I'm complaining about.

But I do think it's instructive for some of the folks here who are pro-gun ownership to just understand the fear and loathing that other people feel about firearms. It is felt honestly and deeply by a lot of people.

I'm more philosophical about it than most, like I am with everything it seems, but for me the first instinct I have when I hear something like this is just ainguished, painful wondering "Why must we live like this?".

So I understand that now is not the time for a rhetorical debate, but the airing of the emotion I'm describing is not simply "political BS" as it was branded earlier. That's all I'm saying.

[DaytonIllini]

Originally Posted by Sure Shot

Well yeah, obviously hearts are heavy and that isn't condusive to fruitful debate. And JFWIW, I'm not really talking about politics or "gun control". Those are the sorts of hobby-horses I'm complaining about.

But I do think it's instructive for some of the folks here who are pro-gun ownership to just understand the fear and loathing that other people feel about firearms. It is felt honestly and deeply by a lot of people.

I'm more philosophical about it than most, like I am with everything it seems, but for me the first instinct I have when I hear something like this is just ainguished, painful wondering "Why must we live like this?".

So I understand that now is not the time for a rhetorical debate, but the airing of the emotion I'm describing is not simply "political BS" as it was branded earlier. That's all I'm saying.

I understand what you meant though my politics lie differently. I just think we lose a lost of posters on days like today because we lash out in emotion and say things we don't mean or wouldn't if we weren't hurting.

These children that survived will be scarred for life. Children are resilient but this cannot help but affect them. I cannot imagine the anguish of parents that lost their children today.

Just senseless. Tragic. Ugly. Awful.

[dsboyce]

Normally when tragedies like this happen, such as at the mall in Oregon, I am able to just shake my head and move on with my day. This time it's different, though. I have had a very difficult time concentrating at work ever since I heard the news. All I can think about is how I would react if it were one of my kids. (I have a son in kindergarten and a daughter in 2nd grade.)

[Clemens]

Originally Posted by DaytonIllini

Today's not the day to debate politics about gun control IMO. Just an awful day and emotions are too raw.

yet you were quite willing to debate politics the day the news broke here on benghazi

http://www.illinoisloyalty.com/Forum...azi#post599142

[mattcoldagelli]

"Today's not the day to talk politics" is code for "I don't ever want to talk about this issue"

[DaytonIllini]

Originally Posted by Clemens

yet you were quite willing to debate politics the day the news broke here on benghazi

http://www.illinoisloyalty.com/Forum...azi#post599142

If you think these events are comparable, I think that says more about you than anything I could post.

We were debating the response by our government and the obvious lies (now proven) being spread by our government about the event. If Obama comes out today and says the killing today was caused by a right wing religious zealot's video attacking Islam, I'm all for discussing the politics of this event.

[DaytonIllini]

Originally Posted by mattcoldagelli

"Today's not the day to talk politics" is code for "I don't ever want to talk about this issue"

The Coldagelli File grows another silly and misguided post. I have debated this issue in a half dozen threads. You simply don't know what you are talking about.

[mattcoldagelli]

It's not silly or misguided. That's nearly always what it means.

[mattcoldagelli]

I also don't understand your arbitrary lines around what constitutes "politics" and what doesn't. Politics is us. It's the collection of values we have agreed on and the decisions we have made/will make as a society. When something goes horrifically wrong in that society -be it in Libya or in Connecticut - it strikes me as an appropriate time to discuss the cost-benefit involved in taking steps to prevent its recurrence.

[DanvIllini]

As a human, a parent, a teacher, I am extremely saddened by this. Prayers to the families of the victims, students and teachers. I know this will turn into a gun control debate so I'll let someone else say all of the same things that were said in the Colorado shooting thread.

[Clemens]

Originally Posted by DaytonIllini

If you think these events are comparable, I think that says more about you than anything I could post.

We were debating the response by our government and the obvious lies (now proven) being spread by our government about the event. If Obama comes out today and says the killing today was caused by a right wing religious zealot's video attacking Islam, I'm all for discussing the politics of this event.

So essentially, it's ok to take advantage of the death of another person as long as it fits your personal agenda. got it

[Clemens]

Originally Posted by mattcoldagelli

"Today's not the day to talk politics" is code for "I don't ever want to talk about this issue"

You need to add, "because today's events put me at a disadvantage"

[stlrunner]

If the guy couldnt have gotten guns, illegally or legally, he would have found another way to wreak havoc. He may have built a bomb, or whatever. Guns dont kill people, people do.

I dont own a gun, and most likely never will. However, to think banning firearms will eliminate tragedies like this is ridiculous. The Oklahoma City guys didnt have any guns, and they found a way to create a tragedy.

Regardless, as the father of a young child, its sad and sickening and scary that this happened. I cant imagine going through what these people are going through right now.

[-josh-]

Originally Posted by Sure Shot

Well, let me get everyone mad at me:

I see things like this and it makes me hopeful. Hopeful that there might come a day when those Americans who so cherish their constitutionally-mandated ability to keep and bear arms nonetheless line up to get rid of their guns, fed up at last with the pervasive, random, culturally destructive power of firearms.

Well meaning granola-chewing liberals with buttons and placards can never convince these people, government will have to make good on Charlton Heston's "cold dead hands" taunt to end the problem by state action. It must come from within.

Someday.

You should be banned from every web forum... I shouldn't even have given you a response... how pathetic...

[DaytonIllini]

Originally Posted by mattcoldagelli

I also don't understand your arbitrary lines around what constitutes "politics" and what doesn't. Politics is us. It's the collection of values we have agreed on and the decisions we have made/will make as a society. When something goes horrifically wrong in that society -be it in Libya or in Connecticut - it strikes me as an appropriate time to discuss the cost-benefit involved in taking steps to prevent its recurrence.

Because I have watched posters flame out on days like today when emotions are raw and never be allowed back on the site. In general I would be fine discussing the lack of merits of gun control at any time. It just seems like an inappropriate time to start cracking out the 22 kids stabbed in China headlines and ask if we should ban knives as well.

Originally Posted by Clemens

So essentially, it's ok to take advantage of the death of another person as long as it fits your personal agenda. got it

No. Read this more slowly for comprehension. Read it out loud if necessary. These situations are not at all comparable. Deaths in War Zone of country wracked by Civil War when threats were sent and security was decreased =/= Deaths of Kindergartners in small town USA by random Oedipal lunatic.

Originally Posted by Clemens

You need to add, "because today's events put me at a disadvantage"

I'd say it put the families of Connecticut at a disadvantage, not me. If you want to go on some anti-gun rant, go ahead. I only suggested we not politicize it. If you are intent on it. So be it.

[mattcoldagelli]

Originally Posted by stlrunner

If the guy couldnt have gotten guns, illegally or legally, he would have found another way to wreak havoc. He may have built a bomb, or whatever. Guns dont kill people, people do.

I dont own a gun, and most likely never will. However, to think banning firearms will eliminate tragedies like this is ridiculous. The Oklahoma City guys didnt have any guns, and they found a way to create a tragedy.

This is all true on its face - the unfortunate fact is that if you were making an axis that showed how difficult a weapon was to obtain vs. how much harm it was capable of inflicting, guns would be right at the intersection of "readily available to most" and "capable of killing in large numbers." Bombs are difficult to get or make; knives are clumsy and/or highly personal to use, and so on.

I'm saying this as a pro-gun person, as well. I don't know what the answer is. Banning guns outright is not even realistic, and I wouldn't support it if it were. I know de-stigmatizing mental illness is something that would benefit our country in a lot of ways, probably including this one. I would like for our leaders to think and talk about it like grown-ups, though, because I want to believe that we can live in the style described by the Constitution without having to accept large-scale domestic atrocities like this.

The only thing I know with certainty will not lead to any improvement is collectively saying "Not now, we can't discuss this." Dayton was absolutely right to be asking tough questions after Benghazi, and anyone asking tough questions about guns today is equally right.

[-josh-]

Originally Posted by mattcoldagelli

This is all true on its face - the unfortunate fact is that if you were making an axis that showed how difficult a weapon was to obtain vs. how much harm it was capable of inflicting, guns would be right at the intersection of "readily available to most" and "capable of killing in large numbers." Bombs are difficult to get or make; knives are clumsy and/or highly personal to use, and so on.

I'm saying this as a pro-gun person, as well. I don't know what the answer is. Banning guns outright is not even realistic, and I wouldn't support it if it were. I know de-stigmatizing mental illness is something that would benefit our country in a lot of ways, probably including this one. I would like for our leaders to think and talk about it like grown-ups, though, because I want to believe that we can live in the style described by the Constitution without having to accept large-scale domestic atrocities like this.

The only thing I know with certainty will not lead to any improvement is collectively saying "Not now, we can't discuss this." Dayton was absolutely right to be asking tough questions after Benghazi, and anyone asking tough questions about guns today is equally right.

Ill just address this issue cause i dont really feel like arguing much tonight. But you can buy LARGE quantities of Tannerite at stores now. Very easy to get and mold into a large bomb.

[mattcoldagelli]

Originally Posted by -josh-

Ill just address this issue cause i dont really feel like arguing much tonight. But you can buy LARGE quantities of Tannerite at stores now. Very easy to get and mold into a large bomb.

Still way more difficult than stealing your mom's gun. How many people in the U.S. don't even know what Tannerite is?

[-josh-]

Originally Posted by mattcoldagelli

Still way more difficult than stealing your mom's gun. How many people in the U.S. don't even know what Tannerite is?

AHA! You said it! You're close to making the only legit point that anti gun activist can make and you just missed it. Lack of education among most gun owners, and by education i mean (having a safe, storing ammunition...etc) This is the ignorant gun owner who puts their gun under their mattress loaded.


And this goes to an EVEN BIGGER problem than banning guns, something that's been in the !!!!ter for years and is slowing sinking further into !!!!, i can hear the gargling of poop in the distance. Lack of general overall education in this country. Everything falls back to education and understanding people.

[Ransom Stoddard]

Originally Posted by mattcoldagelli

Still way more difficult than stealing your mom's gun. How many people in the U.S. don't even know what Tannerite is?

I don't. If I needed to make a bomb I would have to spend a significant amount of time researching and locating the components. Bombs take a lot of planning. If I want to shoot people (which I don't), I go buy/borrow/steal a gun.

And I'm not anti-gun, but the rhetoric that other weapons with high kill yields are easily accessible doesn't fly with me. Guns are everywhere in our culture. I don't know what the answer is, but for me it begins with mental health, taking care of our own, and as Josh said, education. I don't think we spend a lot of time looking out for each other as a society anymore.

And before I get flamed, I'll repeat that I am not anti-gun--and will likely be purchasing one or two after the first of the year, but I'm still very conflicted when I see these instances of someone ending dozens of lives in a matter of minutes--this guy clearly should.not.have.had access to guns.