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Old Dec 14, 2012, 07:52 PM   #51
IlliniRunIn07
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Originally Posted by Ransom Stoddard View Post
I don't. If I needed to make a bomb I would have to spend a significant amount of time researching and locating the components. Bombs take a lot of planning. If I want to shoot people (which I don't), I go buy/borrow/steal a gun.

And I'm not anti-gun, but the rhetoric that other weapons with high kill yields are easily accessible doesn't fly with me. Guns are everywhere in our culture. I don't know what the answer is, but for me it begins with mental health, taking care of our own, and as Josh said, education. I don't think we spend a lot of time looking out for each other as a society anymore.

And before I get flamed, I'll repeat that I am not anti-gun--and will likely be purchasing one or two after the first of the year, but I'm still very conflicted when I see these instances of someone ending dozens of lives in a matter of minutes--this guy clearly should.not.have.had access to guns.
This is the underlying cause, as far as I'm concerned. As a society we need to look out for one another. It's just such a complex issue to tackle, that we tend not to talk about it. Would gun control have prevented what happened today, or would it have prevented even one death? I don't know. Even if gun control yielded positive results, it would feel like plugging a leak in a boat with a wad of chewing gum. I saw a friend post this on Facebook today, so I figured I would share:

"I'm starting to think that this pandemic of public shootings is phenomenological and therefore symptomatic of structural conflict. I've been mulling it I've since the Portland shooting, and I think the trend to keep in mind here is that these shooters are suicidal. A lot of suicide cases are sadly due to lack of attention and interest regarding the social and mental issues of certain individuals (a logical percentage of which are violent). Since this pandemic began, a great deal of attention has been paid to the psychological histories of the attackers. If anyone else has known someone who has committed suicide, you know that they often have trouble communicating their internal struggle, and many times are just hoping others will seek out this information before they reach the point of inability to bear it themselves.

Now, over and over again, folks are confirming the idea that if you shoot people in public before you kill yourself, everyone will want to know why you did it. Everyone will finally be interested in your internal struggle. Since we cannot end the sensationalism of public communications as they stand today, we instead need to look left and look right and check in on our friends and our neighbors. People need to know that there are other ways to be understood so this cycle can slow and hopefully someday end."

I thought it was one of the few good posts I saw on any social network today. The only thing I have a problem with is that it somewhat sympathizes with the killer, and I cannot bring myself to do that at this point. But this whole debate about gun control is a waste of time in my eyes. Not only will it not end tragic days like we had today, but it continues to divide us as a society. It is so polarizing, and instead of moving farther apart, we should be coming closer together. One of the silver linings of days like today is that it shows how people can still come together. I didn't know any of the victims. I didn't know anyone that knew any of the victims. But today my heart was filled with a sadness so deep, that I still can't comprehend it. And I absolutely know I'm not the only one.

I think Dayton's point wasn't that gun control wouldn't have prevented what happened today. It's just that bickering about something like this is actually counterproductive to healing the real issue.
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 07:54 PM   #52
sdfidaho
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Originally Posted by -josh- View Post
And this goes to an EVEN BIGGER problem than banning guns, something that's been in the !!!!ter for years and is slowing sinking further into !!!!, i can hear the gargling of poop in the distance. Lack of general overall education in this country. Everything falls back to education and understanding people.
Now we don't want to get into a real discussion of this Country's issues. The dumbing down of America. Moral and fiscal bankruptcy. These things are just way too complicated for us mortals. Let's just say that guns are bad, and if we pass some more laws, the bad people will really take them seriously this time.
I know I feel safer already just knowing that Barack, Nancy and Harry are already thinking of ways to use this horrible tragedy to take away more freedoms that we don't really need.
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 08:42 PM   #53
classof2016
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Originally Posted by illinifan31 View Post
Such an awful thing to happen...what could drive somebody to do something like this.

Also evil people will do evil things, regardless of if they have a gun. This happened in China today. http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1.../p2p-73692879/
Yes, but I don't think any of those children died in China. These are both evil and tragic events, but 20 children are dead in Connecticut while 22 kids in China have hope for recovery.

RIP.
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 08:51 PM   #54
illinifan31
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Yes, but I don't think any of those children died in China. These are both evil and tragic events, but 20 children are dead in Connecticut while 22 kids in China have hope for recovery.

RIP.
3 might, and at the end of the article it talks about how a year ago 20 kids were killed by stabbing, so it happened. All I was trying to say is that evil people will do evil things, and it's hard to stop that. I hope one day we can find a way to stop stuff like this from happening.
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 09:37 PM   #55
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This isn't a pandemic, it's just more publicized now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_..._United_States
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 10:44 PM   #56
Illinoise
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I cried on the way home from work today. I have a daughter in kindergarten and this tragedy hit hard. The narrative that guns don't kill people.....people do......is insane. If this kid had a fight with his Mom and snapped, do you think he was just as likely to make a bomb as grab a few guns and do what he did? We need to address this issue. There is no easy answer, but making it more diificult to get access to these weapons is a start.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 01:41 AM   #57
bmb777
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Cheers.

A lot of people died on the way to the peace, justice, security, health, wealth, and enlightenment we enjoy today. We learn. We're great at learning. We need to keep learning.
THEY WERE CHILDREN. for the love of God have some compassion. the poster was right. congrats.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 03:00 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by DaytonIllini View Post


No. Read this more slowly for comprehension. Read it out loud if necessary. These situations are not at all comparable. Deaths in War Zone of country wracked by Civil War when threats were sent and security was decreased =/= Deaths of Kindergartners in small town USA by random Oedipal lunatic.



Insulting other posters in your replies doesn't make you right, it just shows how rude you are. At best it is an intellectually weak way of stating your point.

Personally I value one human life as much as any other. You started posting about benghazi within hours after it happened with very few accurate facts available and many of the "facts" posted here were wrong. Actually calling them wrong is being generous, some were outright lies, Including the mythical story about how marines at the embassy weren't allowed to have any ammo for their weapons. Like I said, it is obvious whether or not something is open for your discussion depends on whether or not the situation fits in with your own agenda. It's a very transparent deflection.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 03:08 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by stlrunner View Post
If the guy couldnt have gotten guns, illegally or legally, he would have found another way to wreak havoc. He may have built a bomb, or whatever. Guns dont kill people, people do.
The issue isn't who kills other people, the issue is the lethality of guns. The whole "guns don't kill people, people kill people" has to be the longest running straw man argument in history. Much like a post earlier in this thread about the chinese attack on 20 children with a knife. Those 20 children are apparently alive, wounded but alive, at least 26 are dead in CT. That is the difference, It's the lethal effectiveness of guns that is the issue, not the fact that some people do evil things.


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Originally Posted by stlrunner View Post
I dont own a gun, and most likely never will. However, to think banning firearms will eliminate tragedies like this is ridiculous. The Oklahoma City guys didnt have any guns, and they found a way to create a tragedy.
The thing is though, OK City happened once, how many mass shootings have there been since OK City?
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 06:08 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by sdfidaho View Post
Now we don't want to get into a real discussion of this Country's issues. The dumbing down of America. Moral and fiscal bankruptcy. These things are just way too complicated for us mortals. Let's just say that guns are bad, and if we pass some more laws, the bad people will really take them seriously this time.
I know I feel safer already just knowing that Barack, Nancy and Harry are already thinking of ways to use this horrible tragedy to take away more freedoms that we don't really need.


Maybe my sarcasm meter is broken, but is this a serious comment? The main point that most anti-gun people forget is that "bad people" (criminals or the mentally disturbed) do not follow laws. If we pass stricter gun laws, and they are still dead-set committing an act of violence, they will still find a way to commit their act of violence. Short of putting armed guards at entrances of every school and forcing everyone through metal detectors, I don't see how something like this is preventable.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 06:23 AM   #61
DaytonIllini
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Originally Posted by Clemens View Post
Insulting other posters in your replies doesn't make you right, it just shows how rude you are. At best it is an intellectually weak way of stating your point.

Personally I value one human life as much as any other. You started posting about benghazi within hours after it happened with very few accurate facts available and many of the "facts" posted here were wrong. Actually calling them wrong is being generous, some were outright lies, Including the mythical story about how marines at the embassy weren't allowed to have any ammo for their weapons. Like I said, it is obvious whether or not something is open for your discussion depends on whether or not the situation fits in with your own agenda. It's a very transparent deflection.
Obviously reading slowly doesn't help your comprehension any. I cannot say it more simply. Your lame diversion into Benghazi is inappropriate in this thread. If you want to reopen that thread and hash it out do so. But I am not holding my breath since the truth was much worse than we knew or speculated that morning.

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Old Dec 15, 2012, 07:29 AM   #62
illinibob
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Today's not the day to debate politics about gun control IMO. Just an awful day and emotions are too raw.
It's comforting too know that the prudent, Constitutional geniuses who head the progun movement doesn't agree with you. Larry Pratt, of the Gun Owners of America, thinks this is the perfect time to debate the politics of gun control because he is so smart and persuasive. He knows how to prevent this kind of thing from happening again, here is his measured, thoughtful, insightful comment:

"Gun control supporters have the blood of little children on their hands. Federal and state laws combined to insure that no teacher, no administrator, no adult had a gun at the Newtown school where the children were murdered. This tragedy underscores the urgency of getting rid of gun bans in school zones. The only thing accomplished by gun free zones is to insure that mass murderers can slay more before they are finally confronted by someone with a gun."
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 07:34 AM   #63
DaytonIllini
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It's comforting too know that the prudent, Constitutional geniuses who head the progun movement doesn't agree with you. Larry Pratt, of the Gun Owners of America, thinks this is the perfect time to debate the politics of gun control because he is so smart and persuasive. He knows how to prevent this kind of thing from happening again, here is his measured, thoughtful, insightful comment:

"Gun control supporters have the blood of little children on their hands. Federal and state laws combined to insure that no teacher, no administrator, no adult had a gun at the Newtown school where the children were murdered. This tragedy underscores the urgency of getting rid of gun bans in school zones. The only thing accomplished by gun free zones is to insure that mass murderers can slay more before they are finally confronted by someone with a gun."
He's a tool. There is an idiot in every crowd though. Here is a Democrat congressman

Quote:
Mr. Nadler was asked whether the Newtown tragedy could be the turning point in many Democrats’ longstanding struggle to enact stronger gun laws.

“I think we will be there if the president exploits it, and otherwise we’ll go on to the next” incident, Mr. Nadler said.

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...#ixzz2F8C4T4NM
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

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Old Dec 15, 2012, 08:12 AM   #64
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He's a tool. There is an idiot in every crowd though. Here is a Democrat congressman
Repub apostate David Frum Tweeted (sarcastically) that the conceald carry legal age should be lowered to 5 so that knidergartners can pack and defend themselves.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 08:17 AM   #65
DaytonIllini
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Repub apostate David Frum Tweeted (sarcastically) that the conceald carry legal age should be lowered to 5 so that knidergartners can pack and defend themselves.
Quote:
JimOstrowski ‏@JimOstrowski

When a problem arises, progressives try to think of a new law to prevent it. Libertarians look for the old laws that caused it.

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Old Dec 15, 2012, 09:21 AM   #66
IntenselyOrange
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Forgive me for saying that Sure Shot and his like are the lowest forms of humanity. My wife's friend and colleague lost her child yesterday. The capitalizing on a crisis mentality disgusts me. I am torn between hoping you have children and learn compassion and fearing that you will have children and propogate the problems.

The president has been presidential and you could learn from him. Instead you choose to advance anagenda like a brainless drone. And my comments hold for anyone towing the Huckabee/religion line as well.

Will these families recover? Some will,some will not. Keep these families in your thoughts but please step back from politics for a while. It speaks very poorly of your character.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 09:33 AM   #67
Sure Shot
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Originally Posted by IlliniRunIn07 View Post
This is the underlying cause, as far as I'm concerned. As a society we need to look out for one another. It's just such a complex issue to tackle, that we tend not to talk about it. Would gun control have prevented what happened today, or would it have prevented even one death? I don't know. Even if gun control yielded positive results, it would feel like plugging a leak in a boat with a wad of chewing gum. I saw a friend post this on Facebook today, so I figured I would share:

"I'm starting to think that this pandemic of public shootings is phenomenological and therefore symptomatic of structural conflict. I've been mulling it I've since the Portland shooting, and I think the trend to keep in mind here is that these shooters are suicidal. A lot of suicide cases are sadly due to lack of attention and interest regarding the social and mental issues of certain individuals (a logical percentage of which are violent). Since this pandemic began, a great deal of attention has been paid to the psychological histories of the attackers. If anyone else has known someone who has committed suicide, you know that they often have trouble communicating their internal struggle, and many times are just hoping others will seek out this information before they reach the point of inability to bear it themselves.

Now, over and over again, folks are confirming the idea that if you shoot people in public before you kill yourself, everyone will want to know why you did it. Everyone will finally be interested in your internal struggle. Since we cannot end the sensationalism of public communications as they stand today, we instead need to look left and look right and check in on our friends and our neighbors. People need to know that there are other ways to be understood so this cycle can slow and hopefully someday end."

I thought it was one of the few good posts I saw on any social network today. The only thing I have a problem with is that it somewhat sympathizes with the killer, and I cannot bring myself to do that at this point. But this whole debate about gun control is a waste of time in my eyes. Not only will it not end tragic days like we had today, but it continues to divide us as a society. It is so polarizing, and instead of moving farther apart, we should be coming closer together. One of the silver linings of days like today is that it shows how people can still come together. I didn't know any of the victims. I didn't know anyone that knew any of the victims. But today my heart was filled with a sadness so deep, that I still can't comprehend it. And I absolutely know I'm not the only one.

I think Dayton's point wasn't that gun control wouldn't have prevented what happened today. It's just that bickering about something like this is actually counterproductive to healing the real issue.
Very well said. It is troubling to think that we're somewhat helplessly giving these killers exactly what they want.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 09:38 AM   #68
Sure Shot
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Originally Posted by IntenselyOrange View Post
Forgive me for saying that Sure Shot and his like are the lowest forms of humanity. My wife's friend and colleague lost her child yesterday. The capitalizing on a crisis mentality disgusts me. I am torn between hoping you have children and learn compassion and fearing that you will have children and propogate the problems.

The president has been presidential and you could learn from him. Instead you choose to advance anagenda like a brainless drone. And my comments hold for anyone towing the Huckabee/religion line as well.

Will these families recover? Some will,some will not. Keep these families in your thoughts but please step back from politics for a while. It speaks very poorly of your character.

You'll note that I didn't say one damned thing about gun control laws or politics or anything of the sort. Glad I could be the strawman for YOUR political soapboxing though.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 09:50 AM   #69
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I think Dayton's point wasn't that gun control wouldn't have prevented what happened today. It's just that bickering about something like this is actually counterproductive to healing the real issue.
I agree with the second sentence. Bickering is useless.

As for the potential of gun control to prevent this tragedy, I don't think you can draw a conclusion. If his mother didn't have the guns handy, would he have been able to acquire them somewhere else and continue his suicidal rampage? This may have started as a crime of passion, killing his mother and escalated from there. We don't know.

There are two circumstances where guns are used that are very different. This was the whack job going off. Probably not a good idea to have guns anywhere near an unstable person. The other use of guns that make everyone cringe is the criminal use or gang violence. Those people have some premeditated pupose in acquiring a firearm and would do so whether there are laws or not.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 10:43 AM   #70
bmb777
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You'll note that I didn't say one damned thing about gun control laws or politics or anything of the sort. Glad I could be the strawman for YOUR political soapboxing though.
U said u are hopefull there will come a day when people give up their constitutional right and give up their guns. There is little distinction between saying that and saying u are hopefull this leads to more gun control.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 11:35 AM   #71
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The killings are pure EVIL. We need to defeat or weaken EVIL. As a law abiding citizen if there is a new gun law that states I cannot purchase nor may I possess a firearm what do you think will be the result? Do you think everyone will just be without guns? No, all law abiding citizens will be without guns and the criminals will have open season on you and your family. You think there will be less crime? Chicago is #1 in strict gun laws and also ranks #1 in Crime Rate If you think we all will benefit to be without guns then I say you have the right to NOT own or possess a gun. NEWS FLASH....Law abiding citizens are not the ones committing these crimes! You want to take away my right to defend and protect myself and my family from EVIL? People need to rethink what the heck they are asking for, because they just might get it.

I remember one of the worst days in American History, 9/11. Thousands of innocent people were murdered that day. And not a ONE single bullet was fired. It was pure EVIL that killed senselessly that day. However, if you could picture yourself on that plane and it was being taken over by box-cutters and you had a gun in your pocket... you tell me, would you use that gun rightfully to defend and protect yourself and your family against EVIL?

Think about it, it's not that complicated. People, we need to take accountability for the safety of ourselves and our children. We cannot always stop EVIL, but we can help minimize it. This world needs Prayer. America needs Prayer. Arm yourselves against EVIL!!

My prayers go out to the victims of Evil

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Old Dec 15, 2012, 11:36 AM   #72
IntenselyOrange
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Sure Shot, your first thought was not grief or empathy but rather hope that people would turn in their guns. That shows an agenda and a complete lack of humanity. That you cannot see this proves my point.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 11:59 AM   #73
kingt131
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The killings are pure EVIL. We need to defeat or weaken EVIL. As a law abiding citizen if there is a new gun law that states I cannot purchase nor may I possess a firearm what do you think will be the result? Do you think everyone will just be without guns? If that's the case then why not make a law that states it is illegal to murder? Nevermind.

No, all law abiding citizens will be without guns and the criminals will have open season on you and your family. You think there will be less crime? Chicago is #1 in strict gun laws and also ranks #1 in Crime Rate If you think we all will benefit to be without guns then I say you have the right to NOT own or possess a gun. NEWS FLASH....Law abiding citizens are not the ones committing these crimes! You want to take away my right to defend and protect myself and my family from EVIL? People need to rethink what the heck they are asking for, because they just might get it.

I remember one of the worst days in American History, 9/11. Thousands of innocent people were murdered that day. And not a ONE single bullet was fired. It was pure EVIL that killed senselessly that day. However, if you could picture yourself on that plane and it was being taken over by box-cutters and you had a gun in your pocket... you tell me, would you use that gun rightfully to defend and protect yourself and your family against EVIL?

Think about it, it's not that complicated. People, we need to take accountability for the safety of ourselves and our children. We cannot always stop EVIL, but we can help minimize it. This world needs Prayer. America needs Prayer. Arm yourselves against EVIL!!

My prayers go out to the victims of Evil

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Old Dec 15, 2012, 02:18 PM   #74
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I can't help but wonder what the result would have if the teachers in that school had been armed. Making schools a gun-free zone only serves to makes our teachers and children sitting ducks for any deranged lunatic who manages to get inside the school with a gun.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 03:51 PM   #75
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I can't help but wonder what the result would have if the teachers in that school had been armed. Making schools a gun-free zone only serves to makes our teachers and children sitting ducks for any deranged lunatic who manages to get inside the school with a gun.
Why stop with the teachers? Arm the kids - strength in numbers. That would have deterred this guy.
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